Voyager: AT Aircraft Only??
Thread Starter
I dont think it was ever scheduled to start before 2013
The military can "ignore" ETOPS requirements if they choose to (as long as you have a clearly defined and researched safety case). Problem is with a PFI where the aircraft have to be maintained to JAR standards so that they can flip-flop between civil and military registers and be chartered to civil operators when not required by the military, they can't.
Last edited by Roland Pulfrew; 30th May 2012 at 10:20.
Hi, D-IFF_ident!
The A310MRTT has far more extensive modifications to the fuel system than has the A330MRTT. So, until in-service experience had proved it safe, the A310MRTT's existing ETOPS approval was initially removed.
However, I think that it has now been restored?
Unless things have changed, 'civil conditions' used to apply until a receiver was astern a hose. Then 'military conditions' applied until the receiver was complete and out of contact astern the hose. This meant that all normal civil certification requirements had to be met (even on a trail) except for those occasions when 'military conditions' applied. No reason why not, really.
I see no reason to exempt the Voyager from ETOPS requirements during trails - and would be surprised if anyone would take such a risk, given the current risk-averse attitudes prevailing. And why should they?
About a million years ago when I was FSTA liaison officer, I raised the issue of ETOPS and the associated requirements with 't management, but was assured that it had all been considered.....
As many will understand, it's not just the aircraft which must meet ETOPS standards, it's the whole organisation which operates and maintains the aircraft.
Roly, back in 1996 we were assured that the TriStar and VC10 / VC10K would all be replaced by 36 'FSTA' aircraft within the following 10 years....
Remember when Simon the Civil Serpent confidently announced "The FSTA programme will NOT slip!"......
The A310MRTT has far more extensive modifications to the fuel system than has the A330MRTT. So, until in-service experience had proved it safe, the A310MRTT's existing ETOPS approval was initially removed.
However, I think that it has now been restored?
Unless things have changed, 'civil conditions' used to apply until a receiver was astern a hose. Then 'military conditions' applied until the receiver was complete and out of contact astern the hose. This meant that all normal civil certification requirements had to be met (even on a trail) except for those occasions when 'military conditions' applied. No reason why not, really.
I see no reason to exempt the Voyager from ETOPS requirements during trails - and would be surprised if anyone would take such a risk, given the current risk-averse attitudes prevailing. And why should they?
About a million years ago when I was FSTA liaison officer, I raised the issue of ETOPS and the associated requirements with 't management, but was assured that it had all been considered.....
As many will understand, it's not just the aircraft which must meet ETOPS standards, it's the whole organisation which operates and maintains the aircraft.
As long as you exclude the original Introduction To Service date of 2007 and AAR In Service Date of 2008
Remember when Simon the Civil Serpent confidently announced "The FSTA programme will NOT slip!"......
Last edited by BEagle; 30th May 2012 at 10:41.
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it's not just the aircraft which must meet ETOPS standards, it's the whole organisation which operates and maintains the aircraft.
Last edited by kluge; 30th May 2012 at 13:02.
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CC is easily upgraded for a small fee or with Prior Notice..
Beags, I am reliably informed that the ETOPS validation will be given once the second aircraft comes on line but apparently airtanker want to wait a few months so they can prove their own engines etc.
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Back in the days of Victor and early VC10 trails there was no consideration of ETOPS and pure diversion (Alternate for the younger folks) capability ruled on an Atlantic crossing. This requiement however was only for the receivers, the Tankers had to look after there own safety needs and often had problems allowing for greater than planned fuel transfers after receiver departure adventures. It is difficult to understand how ETOPS can be ignored during the bracket.
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Art Field,
There wouldn't be any ETOPS considerations for a Victor or VC10 as they are not twin engine. ETOPS stands for Extended-range Twin-engine Operational Performance Standards.
Beagle,
You are correct wrt A310 MRTT ETOPS (at least for the CF, can't speak for the GAF). Initially it was lost when the airframes were converted. It was regained last year after the two airframes were deemed to have demonstrated ETOPS in service and the CF engineers had sufficient data from Airbus to properly quantify the risk levels associated with the modified fuel systems.
There wouldn't be any ETOPS considerations for a Victor or VC10 as they are not twin engine. ETOPS stands for Extended-range Twin-engine Operational Performance Standards.
Beagle,
You are correct wrt A310 MRTT ETOPS (at least for the CF, can't speak for the GAF). Initially it was lost when the airframes were converted. It was regained last year after the two airframes were deemed to have demonstrated ETOPS in service and the CF engineers had sufficient data from Airbus to properly quantify the risk levels associated with the modified fuel systems.
Champagne anyone...?
The FAA consider ETOPS to be Extended Ops.
EU-OPS SubPart D still define ETOPS as
EASA AMC 20-6 rev. 2 (Extended Range Operation with Two-Engine Aeroplanes ETOPS Certification and Operation) 2010 is also a cracking read. (By "cracking" I do of course mean "dull")
The UK CAA also refer to ETOPS as Extended Range Twin Operations.
EU-OPS SubPart D still define ETOPS as
(b) ETOPS (Extended range operations for two engine aeroplanes). ETOPS operations are those with two engine aeroplanes
approved by the Authority (ETOPS approval), to operate beyond the threshold distance determined in accordance with
OPS 1.245 (a) from an Adequate Aerodrome.
approved by the Authority (ETOPS approval), to operate beyond the threshold distance determined in accordance with
OPS 1.245 (a) from an Adequate Aerodrome.
The UK CAA also refer to ETOPS as Extended Range Twin Operations.
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QUOTE: Perhaps Opsjockey, you should ring airtanker and let them know it's not a problem as its easy to resolve.
Whys that, you seem to be the one making it an issue... and Im sure they already know as its pretty basic stuff.
If Air Tanker need the aircraft to be flown across the pond, using non-etops for an Air Transport duty then it is perfectly achievable. You mention Crash Cats, Sondrestrom and Fro-Bay (assuming these are the ones that would be used) are both upgradable to Cat 8 with prior noticifation and a samll fee (less than Eur1000)... just a long way round.. (and thats coming from my own experience of 15 years in ops / dispatch for both etops and non-etops operators, from 737's to 747's - used to fly non etops from Europe to Winnipeg regularly). It's not worth getting your knickers in a twist over AAR as that duty is not due to be undertaken at this stage, Im sure by the time AAR is due, all of the necessary items will be in place..
Dont know why these guys get such a bashing... new type, new crews - training is required. The aircraft is undertaking Military duties so it's doing what It should be doing. The aircraft can get pretty far using non - etops rules until they (the company) are qualified (USA / Canada). AAR isnt worth mentioning yet as they arnt due to undertake any for a while so it gives enough time to iron out any teething problems.... Id worry if these issues are still ocurring after the delivery of aircraft 3 or 4, not during these early stages when theres a lot of paperwork to be done...
Whys that, you seem to be the one making it an issue... and Im sure they already know as its pretty basic stuff.
If Air Tanker need the aircraft to be flown across the pond, using non-etops for an Air Transport duty then it is perfectly achievable. You mention Crash Cats, Sondrestrom and Fro-Bay (assuming these are the ones that would be used) are both upgradable to Cat 8 with prior noticifation and a samll fee (less than Eur1000)... just a long way round.. (and thats coming from my own experience of 15 years in ops / dispatch for both etops and non-etops operators, from 737's to 747's - used to fly non etops from Europe to Winnipeg regularly). It's not worth getting your knickers in a twist over AAR as that duty is not due to be undertaken at this stage, Im sure by the time AAR is due, all of the necessary items will be in place..
Dont know why these guys get such a bashing... new type, new crews - training is required. The aircraft is undertaking Military duties so it's doing what It should be doing. The aircraft can get pretty far using non - etops rules until they (the company) are qualified (USA / Canada). AAR isnt worth mentioning yet as they arnt due to undertake any for a while so it gives enough time to iron out any teething problems.... Id worry if these issues are still ocurring after the delivery of aircraft 3 or 4, not during these early stages when theres a lot of paperwork to be done...
Last edited by opsjockey; 31st May 2012 at 09:24.
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Old Bus Driver.
Grateful thanks for bringing me up to date (I think) on ETOPS. Perhaps we should have got AirTanker to buy the 4 engined Airbus to avoid all this fuss but I am not sure where we could hang the pods.
Grateful thanks for bringing me up to date (I think) on ETOPS. Perhaps we should have got AirTanker to buy the 4 engined Airbus to avoid all this fuss but I am not sure where we could hang the pods.
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OpsJ,
Me thinks you work for Airtanker. Good for you.
Have you ever been in the military? The replacement tanker aircraft will be a very capable asset when it works I agree.
Let's hope it's soon to fill that capability gap.
Me thinks you work for Airtanker. Good for you.
Have you ever been in the military? The replacement tanker aircraft will be a very capable asset when it works I agree.
Let's hope it's soon to fill that capability gap.
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Quote: me thinks you work for Air Tanker
Then you would be thinking wrong.. Im currently based at LHR, I just have a keen interest in all things Aeronautical, was in the Military for my National Service and thats about it..
I agree about Voyager will be a very capable aircraft once the niggles have been ironed out....
Then you would be thinking wrong.. Im currently based at LHR, I just have a keen interest in all things Aeronautical, was in the Military for my National Service and thats about it..
I agree about Voyager will be a very capable aircraft once the niggles have been ironed out....
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over AAR as that duty is not due to be undertaken at this stage, Im sure by the time AAR is due, all of the necessary items will be in place
AAR isnt worth mentioning yet as they arnt due to undertake any for a while
Will this lack/delay of capability lead to extensions in service to the current tanker fleet?
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It will eventually provide Air Tanking - Looking at their Website the Air to Air refuelling in service date is planned to be 2014 so theres no delay on capability and a bit of time to 'iron out the niggles'
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The aircraft is delivered with the "Airtanking" systems certified. The boffins at Boscombe need to run their science experiments before it can be used in routine operations. AAR clearance campaigns take time, doesn't necessarily mean there's anything wrong with the tanker.
Thread Starter
It will eventually provide Air Tanking - Looking at their Website the Air to Air refuelling in service date is planned to be 2014 so theres no delay on capability and a bit of time to 'iron out the niggles'
opsjockey. I bet you believe everything that's written in the the newspapers as well, don't you? This is the AirTanker website you are talking about, so it wouldn't have any pro-company propaganda on it, would it? Trust me on this one, the original AAR in service date was supposed to be 2008, NOT 2014!
So it's late, not Nimrod 2000 late, but it's getting there.
opsjockey. I bet you believe everything that's written in the the newspapers as well, don't you? This is the AirTanker website you are talking about, so it wouldn't have any pro-company propaganda on it, would it? Trust me on this one, the original AAR in service date was supposed to be 2008, NOT 2014!
So it's late, not Nimrod 2000 late, but it's getting there.
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But Air Tanker / FTSA / Military contract was only signed in 2008.... thats a pretty swift lead-in time to have it all up and running in the same year...
AirTanker Services Ltd was established in 2008 to deliver the Future Strategic Tanker Aircraft (FSTA) service to the Ministry of Defence over 24 years (from the arrival of the first aircraft). Using 14 new, converted aircraft based on the A330-200 commercial airliner, the programme will provide the Royal Air Force with a safe, reliable and efficient air transport and air to air refuelling service.
The first aircraft is due to arrive at RAF Brize Norton on schedule towards the end of 2011
You are wrong
AirTanker Services Ltd was established in 2008 to deliver the Future Strategic Tanker Aircraft (FSTA) service to the Ministry of Defence over 24 years (from the arrival of the first aircraft). Using 14 new, converted aircraft based on the A330-200 commercial airliner, the programme will provide the Royal Air Force with a safe, reliable and efficient air transport and air to air refuelling service.
The first aircraft is due to arrive at RAF Brize Norton on schedule towards the end of 2011
You are wrong
Last edited by opsjockey; 1st Jun 2012 at 08:54.
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NOT FROM THE AIR TANKER WEBSITE....
PFI takes to the sky
23 January 2009
Outline of the details and progress of the largest ever defence PFI project
On 27th March 2008, the Future Strategic Tanker Aircraft (FSTA) contract was signed by the Ministry of Defence (MoD) and AirTanker Limited. With a potential value of up to £13bn, the FSTA contract is the world's largest defence PFI contract and will deliver a 24-year service that provides comprehensive, worldwide air-to-air refuelling (AAR) and air transport (AT) capabilities to the Royal Air Force, using new FSTA A330-200 aircraft converted into tanker transports.
The contract's fully integrated turnkey service will encompass fleet management and maintenance, ground operations, flight management and crew training. Purpose-built facilities at RAF Brize Norton will support the flexibility and quality required by the contract, providing a superb environment for 500 employees, including RAF personnel, embedded within AirTanker Services.
Current programme status
Since contract signature, AirTanker has been engaged in the delivery of the key infrastructure and the detailed planning of the FSTA service. This has meant a recruitment drive to build up the AirTanker Services team with experienced personnel, and a move from AirTanker Services' base in Bristol to Carterton, Oxfordshire, on the doorstep of RAF Brize Norton.
The infrastructure building programme at RAF Brize Norton commenced in May 2008. A number of existing airport facilities are located within the confines of the proposed AirTanker facility and the new two-bay hangar construction site. Under the FSTA contract, AirTanker Services will reprovide these facilities in agreed new locations elsewhere on the RAF Brize Norton camp.
The first delivery milestone in the contract was achieved on schedule in mid-November 2008, when AirTanker handed back to the RAF the reprovided facilities, which included:
• Bulk diesel and waste fuel tanks;
• Airside motor transport parking;
• Wash pan drainage facilities;
• Petrol oil and lubricants store.
AirTanker Services has transformed these pre-1960 RAF amenities into modern, updated facilities. The next stage of the FSTA service infrastructure is the construction of a two-bay hangar and associated workshops. Backing on to the hangar, on four floors, will be the office accommodation for the RAF's two FSTA Squadrons, the MoD's Integrated Project Team and AirTanker personnel. A training building with a simulator hall for an A330-200 flight simulator will also be built.
A modern, cost-effective and fully integrated solution
The FSTA A330 tanker is an extremely capable force multiplier and force extender. It provides approximately twice the fuel capacity of the VC-10. Of the 14 aircraft to be provided under the FSTA contract, seven will have two wing refuelling pods while the other seven will have a three-point refuelling capability, with the addition of a fuselage mounted refuelling unit.
Services are a major part of the FSTA programme and AirTanker will provide three fully integrated services: an aircraft service, a crewing service and a training service.
RAF personnel will be embedded in AirTanker to deploy aircraft to any operational environment to achieve effective and direct communication of requirements, ensuring that a highly effective partnership is maintained.
A complex contract
In June 2007, the UK Government approved the PFI solution as the most cost-effective means of replacing the RAF's fleet of VC-10 and TriStar aircraft. From that date, the MoD and AirTanker worked together towards financial and contractual close. Together they approached the city to raise the necessary private sector funding and, despite the current turbulence in the world's financial markets, this was successfully secured, with £2.4bn raised for investment in the fleet, a modern, new operational base and associated infrastructure. Today, a group of 24 international banks continue supporting the landmark transaction.
When the contract was signed, the then Minister for Defence Equipment and Support, Baroness Taylor, said: "This deal represents great news for the Royal Air Force and great news for British industry and jobs. The A330s will provide a state-of-the-art air-to-air tanker and passenger aircraft, supporting operations around the world and delivering British forces to operational theatres.
"Achieving a satisfactory outcome to this complex, high-value PFI deal has been challenging, particularly given the factors currently affecting the financial markets, I congratulate all those involved in securing this cost-effective deal."
Programme is on schedule
Handing over the reprovided facilities on time in the middle of November was an important step in the FSTA programme. Dave Mitchard, Managing Director of Airtanker Services, commented: "I am delighted to be able to hand over this first stage of the reprovided facilities to the RAF and it is particularly pleasing to note that they are being delivered on schedule and also meeting the extremely high specifications demanded by the MoD. The rest of the service aspects, including IT development, recruitment, planning and training are running to schedule."
Turning to the FSTA aircraft, the A330-200 is a well-proven commercial platform that is being modified for military purposes. The design and development phase is on programme, and conversion of a standard A330 to an air refuelling aircraft is scheduled to follow by some 18 months.
The first aircraft is planned to arrive at RAF Brize Norton in October 2011. The next two aircraft arrive in 2012 and thereafter there is a gradual build-up, with all 14 aircraft delivered by early 2016.
The importance of the relationship between the MoD and the contractor
The MoD and industry are constantly working together to develop their relationships, particularly since the publication of the Defence Industrial Strategy in 2005, to foster a spirit of mutual understanding, transparency and respect.
This is crucial on a programme such as FSTA, where MoD, RAF and AirTanker staff are working so closely together, and where RAF personnel will even be embedded within AirTanker. The relationship framework is already established, with regular formal and informal meetings and briefings between all stakeholders and much face-to-face time spent between the MoD's Integrated Project Team members, RAF Brize Norton personnel and the AirTanker team. Additionally, AirTanker is becoming involved in the life of the RAF Station at Brize Norton and intends to combine RAF ethos with commercial best practice to deliver a world-class service.
Key benefits: skills/training
Training is a key part of the FSTA programme. AirTanker is responsible for all training and will provide a dedicated facility with full flight simulator, which will be the home for flight and ground crew training.
AirTanker training will qualify RAF pilots to fly the FSTA aircraft, based on the A330 syllabus customised to include the unique air-to-air refuelling role. AirTanker also trains RAF maintenance ground crew.
The RAF will be able to call up AirTanker's Sponsored Reservist Aircrew to provide a surge capability. When not called up, these aircrew will fly civilian flights for AirTanker and undergo regular training with the RAF
PFI takes to the sky
23 January 2009
Outline of the details and progress of the largest ever defence PFI project
On 27th March 2008, the Future Strategic Tanker Aircraft (FSTA) contract was signed by the Ministry of Defence (MoD) and AirTanker Limited. With a potential value of up to £13bn, the FSTA contract is the world's largest defence PFI contract and will deliver a 24-year service that provides comprehensive, worldwide air-to-air refuelling (AAR) and air transport (AT) capabilities to the Royal Air Force, using new FSTA A330-200 aircraft converted into tanker transports.
The contract's fully integrated turnkey service will encompass fleet management and maintenance, ground operations, flight management and crew training. Purpose-built facilities at RAF Brize Norton will support the flexibility and quality required by the contract, providing a superb environment for 500 employees, including RAF personnel, embedded within AirTanker Services.
Current programme status
Since contract signature, AirTanker has been engaged in the delivery of the key infrastructure and the detailed planning of the FSTA service. This has meant a recruitment drive to build up the AirTanker Services team with experienced personnel, and a move from AirTanker Services' base in Bristol to Carterton, Oxfordshire, on the doorstep of RAF Brize Norton.
The infrastructure building programme at RAF Brize Norton commenced in May 2008. A number of existing airport facilities are located within the confines of the proposed AirTanker facility and the new two-bay hangar construction site. Under the FSTA contract, AirTanker Services will reprovide these facilities in agreed new locations elsewhere on the RAF Brize Norton camp.
The first delivery milestone in the contract was achieved on schedule in mid-November 2008, when AirTanker handed back to the RAF the reprovided facilities, which included:
• Bulk diesel and waste fuel tanks;
• Airside motor transport parking;
• Wash pan drainage facilities;
• Petrol oil and lubricants store.
AirTanker Services has transformed these pre-1960 RAF amenities into modern, updated facilities. The next stage of the FSTA service infrastructure is the construction of a two-bay hangar and associated workshops. Backing on to the hangar, on four floors, will be the office accommodation for the RAF's two FSTA Squadrons, the MoD's Integrated Project Team and AirTanker personnel. A training building with a simulator hall for an A330-200 flight simulator will also be built.
A modern, cost-effective and fully integrated solution
The FSTA A330 tanker is an extremely capable force multiplier and force extender. It provides approximately twice the fuel capacity of the VC-10. Of the 14 aircraft to be provided under the FSTA contract, seven will have two wing refuelling pods while the other seven will have a three-point refuelling capability, with the addition of a fuselage mounted refuelling unit.
Services are a major part of the FSTA programme and AirTanker will provide three fully integrated services: an aircraft service, a crewing service and a training service.
RAF personnel will be embedded in AirTanker to deploy aircraft to any operational environment to achieve effective and direct communication of requirements, ensuring that a highly effective partnership is maintained.
A complex contract
In June 2007, the UK Government approved the PFI solution as the most cost-effective means of replacing the RAF's fleet of VC-10 and TriStar aircraft. From that date, the MoD and AirTanker worked together towards financial and contractual close. Together they approached the city to raise the necessary private sector funding and, despite the current turbulence in the world's financial markets, this was successfully secured, with £2.4bn raised for investment in the fleet, a modern, new operational base and associated infrastructure. Today, a group of 24 international banks continue supporting the landmark transaction.
When the contract was signed, the then Minister for Defence Equipment and Support, Baroness Taylor, said: "This deal represents great news for the Royal Air Force and great news for British industry and jobs. The A330s will provide a state-of-the-art air-to-air tanker and passenger aircraft, supporting operations around the world and delivering British forces to operational theatres.
"Achieving a satisfactory outcome to this complex, high-value PFI deal has been challenging, particularly given the factors currently affecting the financial markets, I congratulate all those involved in securing this cost-effective deal."
Programme is on schedule
Handing over the reprovided facilities on time in the middle of November was an important step in the FSTA programme. Dave Mitchard, Managing Director of Airtanker Services, commented: "I am delighted to be able to hand over this first stage of the reprovided facilities to the RAF and it is particularly pleasing to note that they are being delivered on schedule and also meeting the extremely high specifications demanded by the MoD. The rest of the service aspects, including IT development, recruitment, planning and training are running to schedule."
Turning to the FSTA aircraft, the A330-200 is a well-proven commercial platform that is being modified for military purposes. The design and development phase is on programme, and conversion of a standard A330 to an air refuelling aircraft is scheduled to follow by some 18 months.
The first aircraft is planned to arrive at RAF Brize Norton in October 2011. The next two aircraft arrive in 2012 and thereafter there is a gradual build-up, with all 14 aircraft delivered by early 2016.
The importance of the relationship between the MoD and the contractor
The MoD and industry are constantly working together to develop their relationships, particularly since the publication of the Defence Industrial Strategy in 2005, to foster a spirit of mutual understanding, transparency and respect.
This is crucial on a programme such as FSTA, where MoD, RAF and AirTanker staff are working so closely together, and where RAF personnel will even be embedded within AirTanker. The relationship framework is already established, with regular formal and informal meetings and briefings between all stakeholders and much face-to-face time spent between the MoD's Integrated Project Team members, RAF Brize Norton personnel and the AirTanker team. Additionally, AirTanker is becoming involved in the life of the RAF Station at Brize Norton and intends to combine RAF ethos with commercial best practice to deliver a world-class service.
Key benefits: skills/training
Training is a key part of the FSTA programme. AirTanker is responsible for all training and will provide a dedicated facility with full flight simulator, which will be the home for flight and ground crew training.
AirTanker training will qualify RAF pilots to fly the FSTA aircraft, based on the A330 syllabus customised to include the unique air-to-air refuelling role. AirTanker also trains RAF maintenance ground crew.
The RAF will be able to call up AirTanker's Sponsored Reservist Aircrew to provide a surge capability. When not called up, these aircrew will fly civilian flights for AirTanker and undergo regular training with the RAF
Last edited by opsjockey; 1st Jun 2012 at 08:59.
Thread Starter
Thanks Mate , but I think I know a bit more about the programme than that. You are just quoting stuff put out by the MOD/AirTanker spin machines. 
If Air Tanker was only formed in 2008 then the AirTanker team (and the Boeing backed "Tanker and Transport Services Company" (TTSC)) must have been a figment of my imagination back in 2000 when both Consortia visited Brize Norton.
In 2000 the FSTA IPT stated that there would be 3 years of negotiations/D&D, followed by 4 years of service transition with an introduction to service (ITS) date target of 2007, an AAR in service date ISD of 2008, full service delivery (FSD) 4 years after ITS and then 20 years of FSD. That would be why the original VC10 out of service date is now in the past (and with any luck it will make its 50th birthday).
In 2002 I was at a NATO Meeting where both Boeing and Airbus stated that they would have fully operational tankers being delivered within 3 years of contract a signature. Neither have come anywhere close.
Now I may be getting old and my short-term memory failing, but just which bit have I got wrong? As I said, don't believe everything you read - particularly when the Govt spin machine has a handle on it.
And just in case here is a link to what was being discussed on these very forums in 2001 http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/1...l-21-767s.html
, but I think I know a bit more about the programme than that. You are just quoting stuff put out by the MOD/AirTanker spin machines. If Air Tanker was only formed in 2008 then the AirTanker team (and the Boeing backed "Tanker and Transport Services Company" (TTSC)) must have been a figment of my imagination back in 2000 when both Consortia visited Brize Norton.
In 2000 the FSTA IPT stated that there would be 3 years of negotiations/D&D, followed by 4 years of service transition with an introduction to service (ITS) date target of 2007, an AAR in service date ISD of 2008, full service delivery (FSD) 4 years after ITS and then 20 years of FSD. That would be why the original VC10 out of service date is now in the past (and with any luck it will make its 50th birthday).
In 2002 I was at a NATO Meeting where both Boeing and Airbus stated that they would have fully operational tankers being delivered within 3 years of contract a signature. Neither have come anywhere close.
Now I may be getting old and my short-term memory failing, but just which bit have I got wrong? As I said, don't believe everything you read - particularly when the Govt spin machine has a handle on it.
And just in case here is a link to what was being discussed on these very forums in 2001 http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/1...l-21-767s.html
Last edited by Roland Pulfrew; 1st Jun 2012 at 09:31. Reason: To add the PPRuNe archive link
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But the IPT was a MinDef FORECAST - and thuis subject to real world events
Most of the delays were contractual negotiations
Anyway - every IPT is always hideously optimistic - if they were accurate no-one would ever agree to do anything
Most of the delays were contractual negotiations
Anyway - every IPT is always hideously optimistic - if they were accurate no-one would ever agree to do anything
opsjockey, I can assure you that Roly does indeed know what he's talking about.
The '3 years from contract signature' is interesting, Roly - earlier I'd been told that from the moment of saying "Want that one" it would be a minimum of 4 years before the first one flew as a tanker....
I see how pro-Boeing I was back in 2001 before I realised the limitations on RW performance and cargo capability of the ex-ba 767s - and the spin being spun by snake oil salesmen! However, although the A330 now has an AFS which overcomes my 'split axis' concerns and other aspects have also been proved satisfactory, it hasn't yet been cleared for AAR work. The potential to carry 111 tonnes of fuel, but look at the size of the RAF now compared to the size it was when FSTA was first proposed. Will the RAF ever operate the Voyager at anything like its maximum capability....??? Probably yes in the AT+AAR trail role now and again - but in the AAR role alone?
But Boeing's 767 hasn't exactly been the world's best tanker. The KC-767I suffered buffet and flutter problems and was years late, although the boom-only KC-767J has had a much better ITS with the JASDF. However, the Frankentanker KC-46A program is looking somewhat rocky and the cost is constantly escalating...
Meanwhile, the A310MRTT and CC-150T are going from strength to strength, with the later having proved itself to be an outstandingly reliable and flexible AAR platform in the recent Libyan conflict.
A real shame the RAF didn't buy those 24 A310MRTTs 15 years ago when they were on offer.
The '3 years from contract signature' is interesting, Roly - earlier I'd been told that from the moment of saying "Want that one" it would be a minimum of 4 years before the first one flew as a tanker....
I see how pro-Boeing I was back in 2001 before I realised the limitations on RW performance and cargo capability of the ex-ba 767s - and the spin being spun by snake oil salesmen! However, although the A330 now has an AFS which overcomes my 'split axis' concerns and other aspects have also been proved satisfactory, it hasn't yet been cleared for AAR work. The potential to carry 111 tonnes of fuel, but look at the size of the RAF now compared to the size it was when FSTA was first proposed. Will the RAF ever operate the Voyager at anything like its maximum capability....??? Probably yes in the AT+AAR trail role now and again - but in the AAR role alone?
But Boeing's 767 hasn't exactly been the world's best tanker. The KC-767I suffered buffet and flutter problems and was years late, although the boom-only KC-767J has had a much better ITS with the JASDF. However, the Frankentanker KC-46A program is looking somewhat rocky and the cost is constantly escalating...
Meanwhile, the A310MRTT and CC-150T are going from strength to strength, with the later having proved itself to be an outstandingly reliable and flexible AAR platform in the recent Libyan conflict.
A real shame the RAF didn't buy those 24 A310MRTTs 15 years ago when they were on offer.