Voyager: AT Aircraft Only??
Voyager IS cat III capable
The crews ARE being trained to fly cat III
However,
Brize does NOT have a Cat III approach!
So before the old PFI/Airtanker outrage bus goes on another outing, it may also be worth considering that the RAF has had another Cat III aircrfat at Brize for the last 30 years as the TriStar has been cat III capable it's entire life. Is was the RAF that took the decision not to train or qualify crews to fly cat III approaches, largely because it was TFD. Furthermore, if the RAF had bought the A330, I bet they still be working out with airbus where to put the Navigator. God knows they are still trying to justify why a Nav/ Air Eng/ ALM is required to do the job of a purser!
Military efficiency? Never seen any of that!
The crews ARE being trained to fly cat III
However,
Brize does NOT have a Cat III approach!
So before the old PFI/Airtanker outrage bus goes on another outing, it may also be worth considering that the RAF has had another Cat III aircrfat at Brize for the last 30 years as the TriStar has been cat III capable it's entire life. Is was the RAF that took the decision not to train or qualify crews to fly cat III approaches, largely because it was TFD. Furthermore, if the RAF had bought the A330, I bet they still be working out with airbus where to put the Navigator. God knows they are still trying to justify why a Nav/ Air Eng/ ALM is required to do the job of a purser!
Military efficiency? Never seen any of that!
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Did'nt help much at LHR did it, would it have saved the day at BZN ?
Cat IIIB is the reason that only 60-odd flights were diverted/delayed.
The were not delayed because they couldn't get in, they were delayed due to the increased IFR separation that LVPs require to make the rollout safe.
That's with LHR's relentless rate of approaches...i fear BZZ would cope just fine!
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Way before the arrival of Tristar, and as Airsound has posted previously, the Belfast was Cat III capable with the same equipment as the HS Trident operated by BEA; indeed it was supposed to have contributed to the auto land proving that was going on at the time.
However with no compatible ILS at home base, BZN, it was never really used and no crews were trained to operate to Cat III, though we did carry out autoland.
To repeat what has been said... BZN is a basic Cat I ILS, and my understanding, from operating at BZN for 5 years on the Belfast then some 14 years on VC 10s, is that there are topographical and infrastructure reasons why the ILS on 26/08 would not meet the criteria required for Cat II/III ops. Maybe someone with greater knowledge can either shoot me down or explain further.
Rgds
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However with no compatible ILS at home base, BZN, it was never really used and no crews were trained to operate to Cat III, though we did carry out autoland.
To repeat what has been said... BZN is a basic Cat I ILS, and my understanding, from operating at BZN for 5 years on the Belfast then some 14 years on VC 10s, is that there are topographical and infrastructure reasons why the ILS on 26/08 would not meet the criteria required for Cat II/III ops. Maybe someone with greater knowledge can either shoot me down or explain further.
Rgds
1106
Last edited by Type1106; 12th Dec 2012 at 19:42.
....there are topographical and infrastructure reasons why the ILS on 26/08 would not meet the criteria required for Cat II/III ops. Maybe someone with greater knowledge can either shoot me down or explain further.
When the TriShaw was first at Brize, a lot of money was spent diverting the northside road to move it further away from the RW. This was a precursor to enabling higher category ILS approaches and autolands. Then it was 'discovered' that the topography of Lew Hill ruled out Cat III on RW26 and it was already known that the ILS on RW08 had a distinct glideslope distortion which, after the near crash of a TriStar, led to the restriction on auto-coupled approaches on RW08 which is still the case today.
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Thanks Beags - I knew you would have the answer.
However they did know Lew Hill was a problem back in the Belfast days but there was no ILS on 08 back then.
I certainly remember the Tristar auto approach on 08 when it hit the runway with such a bang that could be heard in Cartoon Town! Some interesting people in the cockpit that day as I recall, not least 38Gp Staneval boss.
Rgds
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However they did know Lew Hill was a problem back in the Belfast days but there was no ILS on 08 back then.
I certainly remember the Tristar auto approach on 08 when it hit the runway with such a bang that could be heard in Cartoon Town! Some interesting people in the cockpit that day as I recall, not least 38Gp Staneval boss.
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I seem to recall that the TriStar was actually cleared for ILS IIIC operations - 0ft DH and 0m visibility.
The trick was to set everything up about 15nm from touchdown - not from the visual circuit!
The trick was to set everything up about 15nm from touchdown - not from the visual circuit!
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Collbar,
they do (at least C-17 does) but similarly to ILS, they're Cat II only. That would still be a step forward though... a fair point about getting around Brize's peculiarities
they do (at least C-17 does) but similarly to ILS, they're Cat II only. That would still be a step forward though... a fair point about getting around Brize's peculiarities
Last edited by Uncle Ginsters; 15th Dec 2012 at 16:42.
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I wonder if it is necesary to spend the time and the money training crews to cat111 ILS standard. Not a recorded statistic but a fact . In 25 years continuous flying Victor and VC10 Tankers I was only diverted once for weather, It might be wqrth investigating further.
Except, of course, if the aircraft is a tanker-transport flying an AT sortie......
Weather diversions might have been rare on trails due to the weather minima applicable to fast-jets, but were far more common on trucking trips....
Weather diversions might have been rare on trails due to the weather minima applicable to fast-jets, but were far more common on trucking trips....
I wouldn't put all the blame on Cobham. From what I heard, they struggled to get the mod kits from Spain (or should I say complete mod kits).
Of course once they actually do the remaining aircraft at Getafe the problem of shortages will go away
Of course once they actually do the remaining aircraft at Getafe the problem of shortages will go away
How many RAF fast jet receivers are Cat III capable? Kinda pointless to launch the tanker if no receivers are going to fly. 
There are plenty of occasions where Brize is fogged in, yet glorious sunshine prevails along the east cost where all the receiver bases are.