Voyager: AT Aircraft Only??
The Voyager planes are designed and made by Air Tanker
As for leasing being more expensive than outright purchase, of course it is! But if you can't afford a new car, you might need to rent one. That'll be quite cheap to start with, but not after a few weeks / years.
We always knew that PFI would prove more expensive in the long run....
See BBC iPlayer - Newsnight: 10/05/2012 for the next 7 days.
Rather a simplistic account - the chief point of argument appears to be the capital cost ATr paid for the aircraft. Evidence put to the Public Accounts Committee in 2010 by senior MoD officials suggested 150 million (I assume pounds - the speaker didn't state the currency...), which included all the AAR and military modifications, whereas the BBC claim that a fleet of 14 'green' A330 would have cost £40 million each, plus, as confirmed by OmegaAir, around another £10 million for AAR upgrade, certification etc. Hence the BBC conclude that for the cost of leasing one Voyager for 27 years, the MoD could have bought its own fleet of 14. Conveniently, they didn't mention all the infrastructure costs, simulator, training, aircrew and groundcrew pay etc etc...
But they did say that it'll be at least another year before the Voyager is 'fit for purpose' in the AAR role.
It would be interesting to calculate the cost of the A310MRTT modification programme, divided by 6 (4 x A310MRTT, 2 x CC150T) added to the cost of a green A330.......
Last edited by BEagle; 11th May 2012 at 07:29.
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Wikipedia (source of all knowledge) lists a "green" A330-200 at €195M (£156M) - and Conversion costs are probably more than £10M. Thus I must condemn the BBC report to the bin of bolleaux.
And ATr have very little to do with design, conversion and certification, and the cost to the tax payer should consider through-life-support as well as the cost, in fact instead of the cost, per airframe. The RAF aren't buying any aircraft, so there is no massive initial investment in assets, but a known annual outlay that will remain relatively unchanged for 25 budgets.
Non-story on a slow news day.
And ATr have very little to do with design, conversion and certification, and the cost to the tax payer should consider through-life-support as well as the cost, in fact instead of the cost, per airframe. The RAF aren't buying any aircraft, so there is no massive initial investment in assets, but a known annual outlay that will remain relatively unchanged for 25 budgets.
Non-story on a slow news day.
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Of course the title of the BBC piece....
....seems to imply that the RAF made the call on this deal. I seem to recall that the RAF were very much against a PFI deal, rather it was one of Gordon Brown's 'great ideas' for pushing big numbers out of sight until they became somebody else's problem.
RAF accused over multi-billion Voyager contract
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a single route would strip the sqn down to execs
Probably all get a ballocking for not doing secondary* duties whilst away, too.
*The 'lords and masters' may like to call them something else but, in my never humble opinion, chiseling about on a mess committee is most certainly of secondary importance to flying.
More bang for your buck
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Also in the Torygraph:
Defence Secretary to re-examine air tankers contract over £100m overspend claims - Telegraph
Defence Secretary to re-examine air tankers contract over £100m overspend claims - Telegraph
The story is also being run in the local meeja:
Vow to re-examine RAF refuelling planes contract (From Witney Gazette)
Interesting that after his somehwat dismissive, nanny-knows-best-dear, attitude on Newsnight, Hammond has now said
They also seem to have forgotten that PFI was a Tory invention in the first place....
Vow to re-examine RAF refuelling planes contract (From Witney Gazette)
Interesting that after his somehwat dismissive, nanny-knows-best-dear, attitude on Newsnight, Hammond has now said
“I will go back to the MoD and look personally at what is being done around this PFI contract.”
They also seem to have forgotten that PFI was a Tory invention in the first place....
Champagne anyone...?
I wonder how much it cost to run the VC10 fleet for 25 years (including purchase, conversion, infrastructure, training, maintenance, etc etc)?
A well worded FOI request might provide interesting comparison for the headline figures of the ATr PFI....
A well worded FOI request might provide interesting comparison for the headline figures of the ATr PFI....
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It's a terrible deal. It's never going to be value for money, and everyone I've ever spoken to who knows anything about it knows it - but this was accompanied by a shrug of the shoulders along with "it was this or nothing".
IIRC, the techie financial answer is that when the credit arrangements become cheaper, the MoD intended to buy the deal out. But when will the money be available?
Dreadful, dreadful decision. And that's before we get into the actual spec that we've purchased (no receiver capability, no boom despite C-17, E-3, RC-135 etc etc.)
Another triumph!
S41
IIRC, the techie financial answer is that when the credit arrangements become cheaper, the MoD intended to buy the deal out. But when will the money be available?
Dreadful, dreadful decision. And that's before we get into the actual spec that we've purchased (no receiver capability, no boom despite C-17, E-3, RC-135 etc etc.)
Another triumph!
S41
Air Tanker
Spokesperson says still on track for A330 2014 intro!!! How can it take that long and cost so much.
Bog standard A330 cost about half the Air Tanker price. Most of aerodynamics stress etc. must be the same and already done on Australian aircraft. Avionics fitting can be done by any company. Aircrew can be trained to route flying stage in six to eight weeks for basic airline type trips.
Been at Brize for months and still not doing the non theatre trips, no DAS required for them????
Bog standard A330 cost about half the Air Tanker price. Most of aerodynamics stress etc. must be the same and already done on Australian aircraft. Avionics fitting can be done by any company. Aircrew can be trained to route flying stage in six to eight weeks for basic airline type trips.
Been at Brize for months and still not doing the non theatre trips, no DAS required for them????
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Future Strategic Tanker Aircraft (FSTA)
So I guess that AirTanker can't have made much money from the MOD as yet - which is reassuring for me as a taxpayer.
MOD will pay for the provision of the AAR/AT capability on the basis of availability and usage, and payment will only be made when the service is delivered to a satisfactory standard.
Last edited by LFFC; 13th May 2012 at 18:10.
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According to this article the other aircraft still with Airbus is being used for the AAR trials.
AAR - A400M gets up close and personal with Voyager tanker - The DEW Line
AAR - A400M gets up close and personal with Voyager tanker - The DEW Line
