'Falklands' Most Daring Raid'

[AR1]

We always seemed extremely light in the EW dept for a force that had the cold war threat of SA-xx deployed in their thousands (at least in my opinion) I understand that we deployed chaff via the airbrakes on the Harrier and wonder how effective that was against the Skyguard system? Especially given that it would be a one off shot.

[orca]

And would involve use of the airbrake!

I wonder whether we have just learnt this stuff recently - but cosmiccomet's reply is exactly what i would expect - zip lip and see you at the push point!

[PPRuNe Dispatcher]

I've just watched the program - and had to smile when I saw the white Vulcan B1 at the beginning of the program. It was XH481, which still holds the record for the longest ever flight by a Vulcan, from Waddington to RAAF Richmond, NSW,Australia.

XH481 was also one of two Vulcans which took part in a "Fly the flag" tour of South America in 1960, including Argentina. Not quite as spectacular as the 1982 fly the flag tour though....

PPD

[FODPlod]

I first saw a Vulcan in flight at the Abbotsford International Air Show in British Columbia c.1968. Having watched the newly released James Bond film 'Thunderball' in a Seattle cinema in 1966, this cemented my love affair with the aircraft.

[ex-fast-jets]

I was involved in CORPORATE in the other four-jet bomber - the single engined four-jet Harrier, as opposed to the four-engined four-jet Vulcan!!

I doubt very much that those at Stanley at the time stood out in the open shouting "Tee Hee - you missed!!"

I have no doubt, no matter what more intellectual beings might state, that the impact of the BB sorties was important. Certainly, they were a terrific achievement in terms of planning and flying, in an arena that we had not really tried before. I was impressed - but then, perhaps, I am easily impressed.

As with all statistics, you can compare fuel used for the BB missions against fuel used by SHARs, but for a more complete picture, surely you must add fuel used by the carriers and their escort/resupply vessels, to get the SHARs and others to the fight, if that is the argument in which you wish to engage.

"Most daring raid"?? Perhaps not. Others, especially the SAS might wish to disagree with that claim.

But an important and very impressive raid - surely "Yes". It must have had an impact at the strategic level of decision making.

It really matters not a jot now, but for those involved, they should rightly take pride in what they did - IMHO!!

[Dan Winterland]

Someone asked as to what I based my statement that the raids had a serious effect on morale. While spending yet another seemingly interminable stint on Q in the Falklands, I borrowed a book of personal accounts of the war from the station library. One was from an Argentinean soldier who was dug in to the North of Stanley when the raid happened and specificly mentions it in his account. He said that they were cold, wet hungry and generally demoralised before the start of the war, but not too scared of the conflict as they had been led to believe it would be relatively easy in their well dug in positions.

However, when they realised the British had the ability to hit them with such an awesome display of firepower the mood changed. He mentions that even their previously confident officers looked scared.

I can't for the life of me remember what the book was called. I had a quick google anf the books that came up didn't ring a bell. It was about 15 years ago when I read it.

[ANAPROP]

My copy of Vulcan 607 is a couple of thousand miles away - did they do it all comm out, or was the position of the last bracket sufficiently distant from the FI to allow U/VHF use?

Once the news of the attack came out over the BBC World Service there was no real point in further radio silence; the airwaves came alive with congratulatory calls between the returning aircraft...

[soddim]

BomberH makes a most balanced view of the BB raids but it must be said that despite the great sense of achievement and the pride those involved can justifiably take, there were some glaring lessons learned. Unfortunately, those in the positions to disseminate those lessons to avoid repetition in the next conflict, were prevented from doing so by those at the very top of the RAF because

The war was a victory and it shall be seen as such

.

I'm referring specifically to setting the wrong fuse drum value on VT bombs, flying through the heart of Roland's envelope, dropping with 'tail' selected instead of 'nose and tail' and the SHARs dropping slick bombs from high speed low-level with delay fuses - or was that so they would stop bouncing before they went off?

There were many other errors that should have caused concern and the outcome could so easily have been different - one hopes that the lessons from more recent conflicts have been more effectively learned because I was sorely disappointed by the leadership of our air force in not allowing dissemination of Falklands lessons. Lessons learned in war should be learned by all - they do not diminish the achievement of those involved but they do much to avoid repetition.

[ZH875]

There were probably many cock ups during the first few months of WW2, considering the BB raids were few in number and fewer in completion there were bound to be mistakes which would have been learned from if the conflict had lasted longer than it did.

Similar story for the SHARs as well.

[cosmiccomet]

I saw the 'Falklands Most Daring Raid' documentary today.

Very interesting but with some errors.

Argentine Air Force or Navy had never planned to enlarge the runway in Malvinas.

Operating requirements for Mirage IIIEA/IAI Dagger A are runways of at least 2000 mts long plus a safe land barrier.

The runway is not only the problem, also the ground support and shelters impossible to build in one month before the Task Force arrives to the islands.

It would be very shocking for you but the Argentine government at that time didn't expect UK to fight for the islands...it is written in many books and documents in my country...

The other point is the surface air defences didn't shot at that mission because they didn't have permission for doing so.

When the shotting permission was granted the Avro Vulcan was out of range...

[Fareastdriver]

Argentine government at that time didn't expect UK to fight for the islands

Nor did anybody else.

[Pontius Navigator]

surface air defences didn't shot at that mission because they didn't have permission for doing so.

When the shotting permission was granted the Avro Vulcan was out of range

And therein lies the problem of ROE at the begining of a conflict.

Soddim mentions lessons learnt (or not). It was ever thus and no matter how good the PXD/POD and copious manuals the lessons are really only understood by those who learnt them the hard way. As time goes by . . .

[MAINJAFAD]

Nor did anybody else

Humm, anybody with any knowledge of the political ramifications to either side's government in backing down after the April 2nd invasion would have said otherwise. I was 15 at the time and was very interested in the history of area as regards the exploits of Shackleton and the couple of naval battles fought down south in 1914 and 1939. When I was told by my mum when the I got home from school on the 2nd April 82 that the Argies had invaded the islands my initial reply was 'There is going to be a War!'.

[reydelcastillo]

There are several photos and even Gun Camera shots taken from Argentinian Airplanes , but I have not seen Pictures taken from British Planes when attacking .-
Does someone have Photos or Gun Cameras shots taken from British Airplanes ?
Thanks Enrique -

What I mean is Taken from the inside of the Airplane at the moment of producing the attack .-

[Milo Minderbinder]

What I'd be intrigued to know, is what the Argentine view is of the Chilean involvement (if any). I cam across a Spanish-language "History Channel" program on You Tube a few days ago which seemed to make a big thing of it, but as my Spanish language skills are nil the program was wasted on me....
Rumours have persisted in the UK for yeas over the supposed Canberra and Hunters flown clandestinely from Chile, but what is the Argentine view / belief?

[reydelcastillo]

Milo it has been debated a lot about this and there is a difference of opinion in regards to this , My point of view which may not be the same as other War Veterans is this : We had threaten Chile , some General even said carefull when done with the islands we may turn west .- So Chile did what they had to do to protect the integrity of their Country , they needed us to lose in order to have some piece of mind .- It cost us many lives and Airplanes but I see it as a needed wrong doing on their behalf .- It was a matter of Survival .- This thought is naturally not shared by many in my Country .-

[Milo Minderbinder]

Interesting. What do you believe they actually did? From a British point of view its never been very clear

[reydelcastillo]

Mainly info provided by the Chilean Radar they had in the south which alerted the British Fleet of sorties that were taking Off .- Recon Flights from British Airplanes that were using a Base in an Island .-And I would like some help from other Argentinian that may remember more about this .-

[500N]

reydel
It's only to be expected that they help the UK, after all, it's not like Chile and Argentina are best buddies.

It seems that a few other nations down south might help Argentina out a bit more if it ever comes to a fight again.

[Barksdale Boy]

Reydelcastillo's #334 post prompts me to wonder whether any R88 camera footage of BB 1's bomb run was ever made public. It might answer a few questions.