Spitfire crash landing in Scotland WW11
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31st_FG gives a listing of those pilots of the 31st FG during WW2 who made "ace". The only person with a name which could be Norwegian is Thyng - but remember that non-aces are not listed
That site also indicates that the incidence of crashes during the groups workup was quite high - so maybe a bad landing in Scotland wouldn't have been regarded as notable as no-one was hurt
52ndfghonor_roll42-43
and
31stfghonor_roll43-44
Give the records of damage to the aircraft of the two groups. Nothing there which obviously matches, but there are a number of "unknowns"
Meanwhile Welcome to Aviation Archaeology
Lists all USAF / USAAF aircrew named in an accident report
No record of a Raasch (or of a Thyng either)
So if either were flying the crashed aircraft, it wasn't serious enough to be counted as a crash
That site also indicates that the incidence of crashes during the groups workup was quite high - so maybe a bad landing in Scotland wouldn't have been regarded as notable as no-one was hurt
52ndfghonor_roll42-43
and
31stfghonor_roll43-44
Give the records of damage to the aircraft of the two groups. Nothing there which obviously matches, but there are a number of "unknowns"
Meanwhile Welcome to Aviation Archaeology
Lists all USAF / USAAF aircrew named in an accident report
No record of a Raasch (or of a Thyng either)
So if either were flying the crashed aircraft, it wasn't serious enough to be counted as a crash
Last edited by Milo Minderbinder; 4th Jul 2012 at 22:57.
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Good morning Milo,
Much respect to your research but is there a very faint chance that this crash might have happened as
Hopefully we can all respect the wishes of this gentleman's offspring and hopefully leave them out of this interesting story?
I must confess to being impressed with the amount of research being carried out by everyone
Much respect to your research but is there a very faint chance that this crash might have happened as
Originally Posted by Aviation Archaeology
Although this list contains around 300,000 names, it is by no means complete.
I must confess to being impressed with the amount of research being carried out by everyone
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Agreed Glojo, that list isn't complete
However on checking http://www.spitfires.ukf.net/_prodn%20list.txt, which attempts to be a complete listing of the history of every Spitfire, nothing suitable seems apparent, either by pilots name, or location. However theres the rub: if an incident was missed by one analyst, its more than likely a second would also miss it
Its the old old problem - you can't prove a null answer
However on checking http://www.spitfires.ukf.net/_prodn%20list.txt, which attempts to be a complete listing of the history of every Spitfire, nothing suitable seems apparent, either by pilots name, or location. However theres the rub: if an incident was missed by one analyst, its more than likely a second would also miss it
Its the old old problem - you can't prove a null answer
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FWIW, 133 Squadron shows that 133, one of the RAF Eagle Squadrons was based at Biggen and at different times flew both Hurricanes and Spiitfires from there.
Now to try and find histories of Hurricane losses, and more details of 133.
Now to try and find histories of Hurricane losses, and more details of 133.
Thread Starter
Hopefully we can all respect the wishes of this gentleman's offspring and hopefully leave them out of this interesting story?
Regarding the original eye witness to the hurricane crash, I now have his phone number. I will report back.
El G.
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"It is only the alleged son "
lets get this right..... he IS the son of the man who YOU allege to be the man you met.
The imponderable are
have you correctly identified that man?
and
was he the man that "crashed" in a Hurricane/Spitfire
The ONLY piece of info linking him to all this is the name given to you - which may well be falsely used, or may indeed belong to another with the same name
Only way you can tie down a link is if the Scots boarding house can provide an address from the register
lets get this right..... he IS the son of the man who YOU allege to be the man you met.
The imponderable are
have you correctly identified that man?
and
was he the man that "crashed" in a Hurricane/Spitfire
The ONLY piece of info linking him to all this is the name given to you - which may well be falsely used, or may indeed belong to another with the same name
Only way you can tie down a link is if the Scots boarding house can provide an address from the register
Last edited by Milo Minderbinder; 5th Jul 2012 at 09:09.
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I agree with your observations Milo and I have respect for El G in wanting to solve this mystery but...
No one here, not a single person knows why this vicar has taken the stance he has and I feel horribly uncomfortable at the very thought of not complying with this person's wishes. A journalist will no doubt see his actions as a challenge, I see it as someone saying, 'Leave me alone'
We can all assume any reasons why this person wishes to be left alone but I put even money on not one of us really knowing why and I am NOT going to speculate.
I am on the side of respecting that person's wishes but I also understand the need for El G to resolve this interesting mystery, hopefully this can be done whilst complying with any family requests?
No one here, not a single person knows why this vicar has taken the stance he has and I feel horribly uncomfortable at the very thought of not complying with this person's wishes. A journalist will no doubt see his actions as a challenge, I see it as someone saying, 'Leave me alone'
We can all assume any reasons why this person wishes to be left alone but I put even money on not one of us really knowing why and I am NOT going to speculate.I am on the side of respecting that person's wishes but I also understand the need for El G to resolve this interesting mystery, hopefully this can be done whilst complying with any family requests?
Thread Starter
Let's get this right.
Are you saying the reticent Rev is without a shadow of a doubt the son of Harold A Raasch. If so that is pretty much my final conclusion also.
The reaching of this conclusion was fortified when I found the sons picture yesterday. The resemblence is stunning.
Taking onto account eveything that I know, as well as everything the landlady knows, including the letter from Raasch's daughter. I have very little doubt that Harold A Raasch visited me in Selkirk with the story as previously related.
Was he the guy who crashed the Spitfire ? I do not know. I only know that he visited the town from the US more than seven times staying at the same place and searching for or visiting the location of the crash landing site.
It is entirely possible that he gave a false name to everyone he met. It is entirely possible that some woman purporting to be his daughter sent a letter to the landlady advising of the death of this mystery man as some part of some covert plot.
On the other hand, my reckoning is that the whole name thing is entirely correct, it would be slightly machevellian to suppose otherwise.
The landlady, whom I know well and has live in the town all her life no longer has records covering the period, it ws not obligatory then. Neither does she have the letter advising of Rassch's death.
I am 95% certain that Harold A Raasch visited me in Selkirk, I am totally unsure if he crashed landed an aircraft of any type at any time. That is what I have tried to find out for a long time.
That quest has been opened up to to fellow Ppruners and although the it has raised more questions than answers, I am entirely grateful for the sterling efforts of everyone.
People with greater access to records than I have came up with some interesting information and hopefully this will continue until we can shed some real light on the situation.
I am now about to call Mr Phaup, the eyewitness to the "hurricane" crash in the same location in similar circumstances.
Is there anything specific you would like me to ask ?
El G.
Are you saying the reticent Rev is without a shadow of a doubt the son of Harold A Raasch. If so that is pretty much my final conclusion also.
The reaching of this conclusion was fortified when I found the sons picture yesterday. The resemblence is stunning.
Taking onto account eveything that I know, as well as everything the landlady knows, including the letter from Raasch's daughter. I have very little doubt that Harold A Raasch visited me in Selkirk with the story as previously related.
Was he the guy who crashed the Spitfire ? I do not know. I only know that he visited the town from the US more than seven times staying at the same place and searching for or visiting the location of the crash landing site.
It is entirely possible that he gave a false name to everyone he met. It is entirely possible that some woman purporting to be his daughter sent a letter to the landlady advising of the death of this mystery man as some part of some covert plot.
On the other hand, my reckoning is that the whole name thing is entirely correct, it would be slightly machevellian to suppose otherwise.
The landlady, whom I know well and has live in the town all her life no longer has records covering the period, it ws not obligatory then. Neither does she have the letter advising of Rassch's death.
I am 95% certain that Harold A Raasch visited me in Selkirk, I am totally unsure if he crashed landed an aircraft of any type at any time. That is what I have tried to find out for a long time.
That quest has been opened up to to fellow Ppruners and although the it has raised more questions than answers, I am entirely grateful for the sterling efforts of everyone.
People with greater access to records than I have came up with some interesting information and hopefully this will continue until we can shed some real light on the situation.
I am now about to call Mr Phaup, the eyewitness to the "hurricane" crash in the same location in similar circumstances.
Is there anything specific you would like me to ask ?
El G.
Thread Starter
hopefully this can be done whilst complying with any family requests?
I personally would not attempt to contact the Rev, more out of respect for his wishes, rather than fear of his threats.
I would jump at the chance of talking to other family and be willing to back off if they so requested.
No answer from Mr Phaup's phone !
Last edited by El Grifo; 5th Jul 2012 at 10:32.
Thread Starter
Just spoke to Mr Phaup the eywitness to most of the "hurricane" incident.
Apparently this happened as he put it, "in the early part of the war". He is now 90 years old and reckoned he was 18 or so at the time so that would put it about 1940 give or take his memory.
He was very sharp of wit nevertheless.
An aircraft came out of the mist at Ashkirk town and made two attempts at landing. He believes "telegraph cables" or "poles" prevented it from initial attempts. Later he heard it had crash landed in the exact location that our Harold said he had crashed, Haremoss at Headshaw. An area which although looks flat is actually marshy ground.
The aircraft had understandably flipped nose over.
The following day he visited the scene to see the aircraft being dismantled and put on to a low loader. He was kept fairly well back, but on enquiring he was told that the pilot was Norweigian and had suffered only a damaged nose and that the aircraft would be repaired and made fit to fly.
Bear in mind this area is rural beyond rural, so any information could easily have been an interpretation of the facts rather than facts themselves.
The word "spitfire" was always more dramatic than the word "hurricane"
As was pointed out earlier, If the aircraft made two attempts at landing and then selected an alternative site close by, one can only assume it was under power.
Why would an aircraft under power and apparently controlable make a crash landing miles from any military base.
Probably several reasons but any input would help.
El G.
Apparently this happened as he put it, "in the early part of the war". He is now 90 years old and reckoned he was 18 or so at the time so that would put it about 1940 give or take his memory.
He was very sharp of wit nevertheless.
An aircraft came out of the mist at Ashkirk town and made two attempts at landing. He believes "telegraph cables" or "poles" prevented it from initial attempts. Later he heard it had crash landed in the exact location that our Harold said he had crashed, Haremoss at Headshaw. An area which although looks flat is actually marshy ground.
The aircraft had understandably flipped nose over.
The following day he visited the scene to see the aircraft being dismantled and put on to a low loader. He was kept fairly well back, but on enquiring he was told that the pilot was Norweigian and had suffered only a damaged nose and that the aircraft would be repaired and made fit to fly.
Bear in mind this area is rural beyond rural, so any information could easily have been an interpretation of the facts rather than facts themselves.
The word "spitfire" was always more dramatic than the word "hurricane"
As was pointed out earlier, If the aircraft made two attempts at landing and then selected an alternative site close by, one can only assume it was under power.
Why would an aircraft under power and apparently controlable make a crash landing miles from any military base.
Probably several reasons but any input would help.
El G.
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El G:
If the Hurricane crash witness saw the pilot show him Timothy's picture. The likeness is likely to be even more pronounced in a young Harold. Better yet, if he claims to have seen the pilot trawl the internet for pictures of men of a similar age to Timothy and "do a line-up". If he picks out Timothy then the plot thickens...
I'd suggest not contacting the daughter. There is a reason she told the landlady of his demise some ten years prior to it actually occurring. Falsely telling others of someone's death is not the done thing here in the US just as it isn't there in the UK so it's a fairly extreme act. If Harold wasn't coming over any more for whatever reason the truth could have been told or something less "embarrassing" could have been told. The fact that she chose to "kill" him tells me that she didn't want any possibility of communication.
Is there anything specific you would like me to ask ?
Other family members might feel a lot different.
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Probably several reasons but any input would help.
Thread Starter
Our posts probaly crossed AA but as you will read, Mr Phaup diod not se the pilot only the aircraft components being dismantled and loaded on to the Low-Loader.
I take your point ref empty tanks !
Still struggling to believe that the daughter would mis-inform the Landlady.
Makes little sense to me.
Then again little of this does !
I take your point ref empty tanks !
Still struggling to believe that the daughter would mis-inform the Landlady.
Makes little sense to me.
Then again little of this does !
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"Haremoss at Headshaw" is, I believe a new description of this landing site. Previously we've had Ashkirik, Selkirk, Dryden and sites, so just where the heck did this happen?
FWIW none of those names show up on that list of Spitfire crsahes / incidents /
rebuilds
"Early in the war" is interesting
1) Our" HA Rassch joined up in 1943
2) The only Eagle Squadron to be based at Biggin was 133 Squadron. They flew Hurricanes from Biggin between 7 May 1942 and the end of July. They were back at Biggin with Spitfire from "early September" until 23rd September 1942. It would seem probable the crash was between those two periods.
3) Only two USAAF squadrons flew from Biggin, both at different periods of 1942: first the 307th Fighter Squadron, later the 2nd Fighter Squadron
Do you think your witness would regard 1942 as "early in the war"?
Can anyone find histories and personnel lists of these three squadrons?
edit
If the pilot in the crash were Norwegian, and it was a Hurricane not a Spitfire then presumably it would have been an aircraft from 331 Squadron https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No._331_Squadron_RAF
However they were never based at Biggin
332 Squadron was also Norwegian but only flew Spitfires
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No._332_Squadron_RAF
List of 331's Hurricanes at Norwegian Hurricanes
One entry is interesting:
Z5215 / FN-Z / Forced landing after engine failure 27-8-41, pilot Gunnar Piltingsrud
Can anyone access details of that crash?
edit 2
This is the chap mentioned in that crash report
Google Translate
He set up both the Norwegian fighter squadrons, and trained in Canada. And later he had Canadians in another Squadron he led - 137
see post 3 on Canadian Typhoon Pilots - Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No._137_Squadron_RAF
SO...can anyone identify the crash site of Z5215???
FWIW none of those names show up on that list of Spitfire crsahes / incidents /
rebuilds
"Early in the war" is interesting
1) Our" HA Rassch joined up in 1943
2) The only Eagle Squadron to be based at Biggin was 133 Squadron. They flew Hurricanes from Biggin between 7 May 1942 and the end of July. They were back at Biggin with Spitfire from "early September" until 23rd September 1942. It would seem probable the crash was between those two periods.
3) Only two USAAF squadrons flew from Biggin, both at different periods of 1942: first the 307th Fighter Squadron, later the 2nd Fighter Squadron
Do you think your witness would regard 1942 as "early in the war"?
Can anyone find histories and personnel lists of these three squadrons?
edit
If the pilot in the crash were Norwegian, and it was a Hurricane not a Spitfire then presumably it would have been an aircraft from 331 Squadron https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No._331_Squadron_RAF
However they were never based at Biggin
332 Squadron was also Norwegian but only flew Spitfires
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No._332_Squadron_RAF
List of 331's Hurricanes at Norwegian Hurricanes
One entry is interesting:
Z5215 / FN-Z / Forced landing after engine failure 27-8-41, pilot Gunnar Piltingsrud
Can anyone access details of that crash?
edit 2
This is the chap mentioned in that crash report
Google Translate
He set up both the Norwegian fighter squadrons, and trained in Canada. And later he had Canadians in another Squadron he led - 137
see post 3 on Canadian Typhoon Pilots - Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No._137_Squadron_RAF
SO...can anyone identify the crash site of Z5215???
Last edited by Milo Minderbinder; 5th Jul 2012 at 14:14.
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Forced landing after engine failure 27-8-41
I just uncovered another tidbit to fill out Harold's life. At one point he's almost my neighbour... (Loosely speaking)...
According to Timothy's Farcebook page, (yes, it's him), he was in the class of 1972 at Fremont High School in Fremont, Indiana which is just a spit away from the Michigan border. Unfortunately, his list of friends doesn't point me at any siblings. It does put Harold and Janice there too in 1972... It's not proving to be helpful though.
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"That date is pre-Harold joining..."
Agreed, but this whole conundrum is based on the assumption that the Spitfire site Harold was trying to find, was the Norwegian Hurricane site.
What if it wasn't? What if there really were two separate incidents?
We have multiple locations for the site, confusion over aircraft identity...
There are no apparent Spitfire incidents which fit the apparent history. This is a Hurricane incident which MAY fit - we need to eliminate it if we can
Agreed, but this whole conundrum is based on the assumption that the Spitfire site Harold was trying to find, was the Norwegian Hurricane site.
What if it wasn't? What if there really were two separate incidents?
We have multiple locations for the site, confusion over aircraft identity...
There are no apparent Spitfire incidents which fit the apparent history. This is a Hurricane incident which MAY fit - we need to eliminate it if we can
Thread Starter
No confusion whatsever about the site.
Haremoss is a part of Headshaw Farm which is in the hamlet of Ashkirk a few miles from my shop in Selkirk.
Nearby Dryden is the site of the Beaufighter crash ,the area is still called "the aeroplane field"
A crash of either a Hurricane or a Spitfire did occur exactly as described with either a Norwegian or a person either Canadian, Canadian Born American or American.
The crash or crash landing happened in misty conditons and the pilot walked away.
Just looked at the Rev's photo on FB and if that is not the son of our Harold, then I am a monkey's uncle. It simply reinforces the jolt of recognition from yesterday.
Haremoss is a part of Headshaw Farm which is in the hamlet of Ashkirk a few miles from my shop in Selkirk.
Nearby Dryden is the site of the Beaufighter crash ,the area is still called "the aeroplane field"
A crash of either a Hurricane or a Spitfire did occur exactly as described with either a Norwegian or a person either Canadian, Canadian Born American or American.
The crash or crash landing happened in misty conditons and the pilot walked away.
Just looked at the Rev's photo on FB and if that is not the son of our Harold, then I am a monkey's uncle. It simply reinforces the jolt of recognition from yesterday.
Last edited by El Grifo; 5th Jul 2012 at 15:51.
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I wouldn't get too hung up over looks. I suspect that the various people named Raasch all originate from the same small founding pool of immigrants and are likely to be closely related. Given that they were originally German-speaking Lutherans, it would not surprise me if the first generations married within a relatively local restricted gene pool of similar minded people.
Its no coincidence that Wisconsin features heavily in the origin of all the people named Raasch who I've checked while working on this.
I'd expect them all to look similar
Its no coincidence that Wisconsin features heavily in the origin of all the people named Raasch who I've checked while working on this.
I'd expect them all to look similar
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Apologies if I'm barking up the wrong tree, but could a Spitfire pilot (2nd Lt) who was in the habit of pranging his crate be relieved of his pilot duties to become a bombardier? Would you normally expect a bombardier to be commissioned?
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http://www.rafandluftwaffe.info/lists/raf1.htm shows that Norwegian Hurricane crash I referenced above was near Castletown in Scotland - near Thurso, that rules that one out
Going through that list provides nothing which would fit the site, so scrub the idea of the pilot really being Norwegian. Unless it wasn't recorded....
Going through that list provides nothing which would fit the site, so scrub the idea of the pilot really being Norwegian. Unless it wasn't recorded....