Spitfire crash landing in Scotland WW11

[grebllaw123d]

I have downloaded Lt. Col. Raasch's obituary from the newspaper, or rather parts of it, as I had to be a subscriber in order to get it all. There is no picture on the part I have.

[Airborne Aircrew]

I searched for pictures too because of the description El Grifo gave of the man... I couldn't find any either... While that's far from conclusive it was a sensible avenue of research...

[grebllaw123d]

El Grifo,

One small question:

How did you get the Rev.'s email address?

[mini]

Mention of a 2nd Lt Raasch here:

R

The contact email for the source is also listed.

[El Grifo]

How did you get the Rev.'s email address?

A fellow pruner with ecclesiasticle connections, did a serious bit of sleuthing earlier last year and came up with it.

The contact email for the source is also listed.

I actually found that once and contacted the email address. I got a reply saying that the person would do some checking, but I cannot find any other communication. I will try him again.

[Milo Minderbinder]

Mini

thats the same guy - the Lt Col, just earlier in his career

[El Grifo]

Yep ! banged off am email nevertheless with an update of how the search nis going !!

Explore all avenues one if not thrice

[Airborne Aircrew]

Ok... Here's the results of my sleuthing... It may seem a bit disjointed but it's how I wrote the notes as I found information with subsequent interjections as things became clearer.

Three Harolds come close to fitting the bill with the first one showing many data points we have previously seen. My bet will be on him if any... On a side note - One wonders if the daughter may have lied about her fathers death to the landlady just to bring closure there... Just a thought.

Death Records of our three Harolds:

Name: Harold A. Raasch
SSN: 398-14-7517
Last Residence: 95472 Sebastopol, Sonoma, California, United States of America
Born: 21 Feb 1924
Died: 20 Feb 2000
State (Year) SSN issued: Wisconsin (Before 1951)

Name: Harold R. Raasch
Last Residence: 90027 Los Angeles, Los Angeles, California, United States of America
Born: 22 Aug 1919
Died: 4 Feb 2004
State (Year) SSN issued: Wisconsin (Before 1951)

Name: Harold Arnold Raasch
Birth Date: 20 Nov 1906
Age at Death: 94
Death Date: 27 Aug 2001
Burial Place: Klamath Falls, Klamath County, Oregon, USA

There appear to be no further death records of a Harold Raasch anywhere until 1987 when our man was, supposedly, still alive.

As I said, my gut goes with our 1924 Harold...

Harold Raasch (1924) 1930 Census Record:-

Name: Harold Raasch
Gender: Male
Birth Year: abt 1924
Birthplace: Wisconsin
Race: White
Home in 1930: Milwaukee, Milwaukee, Wisconsin
Marital Status: Single
Relation to Head of House: Son
Father's Name: Alfred Raasch
Father's Birthplace: Wisconsin
Mother's name: Anna Raasch
Mother's Birthplace: Wisconsin
Occupation:

Household Members:
Name Age
Alfred Raasch 39
Anna Raasch 41
Alfred Raasch 7
Harold Raasch 6
Marcella Raasch 3

Family Trees:

This Harold is found in the Raasch family tree on Ancestry. He married a Janice Marie Kennedy born 17 June 1923 in New Philadelphia, Ohio and died 5 July 1983 in Sunnyvale, California. In this tree there is only one child, (a boy), who's details are private.

He also appears in the Leggett/Liggett Family tree and marries Janice there too... In this tree there are 3 children, (1 girl and two boys), with private details too. This tree confirms the enlistment record, 1930 Census record and the death record I had already found. This record of Harold was added to the Ancestry tree by a certain tdraasch... Dear, dear Timothy...

He also appears in a Graf Family tree which confirms his parents as Alfred Raasch and Anna (Reitz) Raasch.

Timothy Raasch also has a family tree of his own that references Harold Raasch born in 1924 - the tree is in the name tdraasch confirming the link in the Leggett/Liggett tree above.

Army Enlistment Record:-

Name: Harold A Raasch
Birth Year: 1924
Race: White, citizen (White)
Nativity State or Country: Wisconsin
State of Residence: Wisconsin
County or City: Milwaukee

Enlistment Date: 5 Jan 1943
Enlistment State: South Carolina
Enlistment City: Shaw Field Sumter
Branch: Air Corps
Branch Code: Air Corps
Grade: Private
Grade Code: Private
Term of Enlistment: Enlistment for the duration of the War or other emergency, plus six months, subject to the discretion of the President or otherwise according to law Component: Reserves - exclusive of Regular Army Reserve and Officers of the Officers Reserve Corps on active duty under the Thomason Act (Officers and Enlisted Men -- O.R.C. and E.R.C., and Nurses-Reserve Status)
Source: Enlisted Reserve or Medical Administrative Corps (MAC) Officer

Education: 4 years of high school
Civil Occupation: Occupations in manufacture of automobiles, n.e.c.
Marital Status: Single, without dependents
Height: 00
Weight: 100

This enlistment record is confirmed here and gives his service number as 16089455:-

http://files.usgwarchives.net/wi/mil...enli134gmt.txt

The thought that this Harold A Raasch is the same one that was in the Bulgarian Prison Camp is therefore "shot down", (pun intended), by the fact that the chap in the camp had a serial number O-715095 as witnessed here:-

WorldWar2.ro Forum -> Shumen POW camp

Post War Information:-

In 1954 Harold was at Robins AFB Georgia with his wife where he worked as a Historical Service(s) Director:-

Name: Harold A Raasch
Gender: M (Male)
Residence Year: 1954
Street Address: 2717 Cherokee av
Residence Place: Macon, Georgia
Occupation: Historical Serv Dir
Spouse: Janice M Raasch
Publication Title: Macon, Georgia, City Directory, 1954

In 1956 Harold and Janice were in Decatur GA where he was an Assistant Professor at the University of Georgia:-

Name: Harold A Raasch
Gender: M (Male)
Residence Year: 1956
Street Address: Decatur GA
Residence Place: Atlanta, Georgia
Occupation: Asst Prof
Spouse: Janice M Raasch
Publication Title: Atlanta, Georgia, City Directory, 1956

In 1961 it's quite probable that this record is them having moved to Manchester, New Hampshire where he worked as a scheduler at the US Tracking Station, New Boston, (see New Boston Air Force Station - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

Name: Harold A Raasch
Gender: M (Male)
Residence Year: 1961
Residence Place: Manchester, New Hampshire
Occupation: Scheduler
Spouse: Janice Raasch
Publication Title: Manchester, New Hampshire, City Directory, 1961

This is most probably a list of his later addresses:-

Name: Harold A Raasch
Address: 633 King St Apt 12, Santa Rosa, CA, 95404-3852
[2980 Bay Village Cir # B, Santa Rosa, CA, 95403-3613]
[1945 Piner Trlr Rd 3, Santa Rosa, CA, 95403]
[1945 Piner Trlr Rd 38, Santa Rosa, CA, 95403]
[7051 Fellers Ln, Sebastopol, CA, 95472-4479 (1994)]

So, to summarize. Harold Arthur Raasch was born on the 21st February 1924 in Milwaukee Wisconsin. Prior to his enlistment at 19 years of age he worked for an automobile manufacturer. He joined the Army Air Force at Shaw Field, Sumpter, South Carolina as a private on the 5th Jan 1943. At the time of enlistment he was unmarried. Some time later he married a Janice Marie Kennedy and had three children. He spent some time on the East Coast doing various jobs including being an assistant professor at the University of Georgia. Some time after 1961 the family moved to California. He is almost certainly the father of a Timothy D Raasch who was born in 1955 which fits with his already being married in 1954 in Macon, Georgia. Harold died on my birthday, 20th February 2000 just the day before his 76th birthday.

I find it difficult to believe that our, (most probably), factory working Harold joined as a private in 1943 and became a Spitfire pilot flying out of Biggin Hill by the end of the war. T'is little wonder the Reverend Timothy D. Raasch has become so uncooperative...

[grebllaw123d]

The confusion is total..........

After comparing the new info with already known stuff, I must say that fantastic coincidences exist!

Let us call H.A.R as Airborne Aircrew is describing in his last post for NEW H.A.R.

- According Lt.Col. H.A.R.'s obituary he died on Feb 20 2000 - same day as NEW H.A.R.

- Lt. Col. H.A.R. has a son with the name of Tim - same goes for NEW H.A.R.

- Lt. Col. H.A.R. has a brother Alfred - same goes for NEW H.A.R.

- Lt. Col. H.A.R. got married to a Janice Kennedy - same goes for NEW H.A.R.

- NEW H.A.R.'s mother is called Anna - same goes for LT.Col. H.A.R.'s mother - noted on a crew list as next of kin.

Something is wrong!

So the question as to who entered El Grifo's shop is still open!!

[El Grifo]

Anyone able to throw any light on this new development.

Any theories of whatever nature are welcomed.

This plot has thickened amost from day one !

[Airborne Aircrew]

grebllaw123d:

Ok... I'll run with that.

Googling "Lt. Col. Harold A Raasch" finds me the following

Dear Liberandos,

I just discovered your site and it's great.

Where do I find list of crew rosters? I believe that my father, Lt. Col.
Harold A. Raasch, USAAF Retired, who died February 2000, served with the
376st. I don't know if he flew on famous Aug. 1, 1943 raid, but I do know
that he was shot down over Giurgiu, Romania on July 3, 1944.

Any information would be gratefully appreciated.

Happy Holidays, Tim Raasch

Which got the following reply:-

To Tim Raasch,

According to James W. Walker's book "The Liberandos", page 542, there were five planes shot down on mission #285 to

Giurgiu, Romania on 13 July 44. They were:
Serial #41-28960, Sqdn. 515, no plane name given, plane #90-D, Piloted by Lt. James J. Sparta, went down near

Draganesti, Romania; Ser. # 42-51157, Sqdn. 512, no plane name given, plane # 37-H, piloted by Lt. William R.

Holgate, went down near Corabia, Romania; Ser.# 42-95388, Sqdn.512, no plane name given, plane # 34, piloted by

Lt. George H. Hillman, Jr., went down near Ostrov, Romania; Serial # 42-94779, Sqdn. 515, no plane name given,

plane # 86-F, piloted by Capt. Arthur J. Staveley, went down near Draganesti, Romania; Ser.# 42-109831, Sqdn.

512, plane name "Gin Rae", plane # 35-P, piloted by Lt. Augustus H. Dugi, went down near Zimnica, Romania.

This may be a start for you. Walker's book is probably the best single source but they are "very" had to locate.

Large major libraries or military libraries may be your best posibilities.

Good luck,

That search also gets me a Harold A. Raasch, Pfc on the 40th Sqn of the 6th Bomb group on 20th Feb 1946 as ground crew... I'll happily let this record drop as fundamentally uncorroberated.

So, it seems that Tim Raasch confirms that Lt. Col. Harold Raasch is indeed his father and that he was shot down in Rumania on July 3, 1944 or July 13th 1944 as a member of the 376th Bomb Group. While there is no evidence there that he was a pilot there is none that he wasn't... It seems reasonable that this Harold did got captured and sent to the Bulgarian PoW camp because he was probably issued a new number upon commissioning. If he was there he was released on 8th September 1944 because the “GIDI GIDI BOOM BOOM” crew history claims that all prisoners where released when the Russian Army reached the northern border of Bulgaria. 327 of the 328 prisoners held in this prison boarded a special train for Turkey at 1:30am on September 9th leaving one wounded PoW in hospital.

Again... The additional information makes it even less likely that Harold ever flew a Spitfire out of Biggin Hill during the war. It also seems to confirm that, for whatever reason, Harold's daughter did indeed lie to the landlady about Harold's death because his son actively confirms his demise in 2000.

[grebllaw123d]

El Grifo,

You are so right re the plot!

I have a point - please comment.

In post #167 the following is shown:

From
Yahoo! Groups
(an old post from 2002)
"Dear Liberandos,
I just discovered your site and it's great.
Where do I find list of crew rosters? I believe that my father, Lt. Col.
Harold A. Raasch, USAAF Retired, who died February 2000, served with the
376st. I don't know if he flew on famous Aug. 1, 1943 raid, but I do know
that he was shot down over Giurgiu, Romania on July 3, 1944.
Any information would be gratefully appreciated.
Happy Holidays, Tim Raasch"

This is, as indicated, written by Lt.Col. H.A.R.'s son Tim in a quite different style than the style the REV. used in his communication with you - this indicates that we are talking about 2 different persons IMO. Do I have a point?

[Airborne Aircrew]

Do I have a point?

I doubt it... Back in 2002 Tim was looking into his father's history. Now, others are looking at a different aspect of his father... One he may not be so proud of as witnessed by his new attitude. Interestingly, in 1990, Tim's sister wanted to put a stop to whatever her father was doing too, hence the lie to the landlady.

[grebllaw123d]

Airborne Aircrew,

H.A.R. - pilot or no pilot:
Look at the following link - on this crew list he is indicated as B in line 4 after Pilot, copilot and navigator:

Official Home of the 450th BG Association

[grebllaw123d]

Airborne Aircrew,

Please clarify this:

You write: Back in 2002 Tim was looking into his father's history
Yes, Tim was looking into his father, Lt. Col. H.A.R.'s history.

The guy you have found in your investigation is not the Lt. Col., but "the factory working Harold", whose son Tim, El Grifo has mailed with.

Consequently there must be 2 different persons!

[Airborne Aircrew]

Consequently there must be 2 different persons!

Not at all... It is quite clear that the Harold I detail that was born on 21 Feb 1924 is father to the Reverend Timothy D Raasch and therefore ended up a Lt. Col. in the USAAF.

The place where the confusion between the "the Lt. Col." and the "factory working Harold" arises is in the Enlistment document. It states there that Harold enlisted as a Private with a service number 16089455 and that, prior to enlistment his civil occupation was listed as " Occupations in manufacture of automobiles, n.e.c.". I have pointed out in my post #251 that the Harold with a service number O-715095 probably had his service number changed from 16089455 upon commissioning thus negating my statement I made in post #248:-

The thought that this Harold A Raasch is the same one that was in the Bulgarian Prison Camp is therefore "shot down", (pun intended), by the fact that the chap in the camp had a serial number O-715095 as witnessed here:-

At that point the penny hadn't dropped that he would receive an Officer's serial when he got commissioned and it's my fault I didn't point that out more clearly... I write notes in Notepad and then copy and pasted them into my reply and "pretty it up" before I submit it.

Thank you for the link... It clears up two things. Firstly, it negates the response Tim got in my post #251 implying he was shot down on the 13th July 1944. It also tells us that he was a Bombardier on a B-24 flying out of Italy.

That last little snippet of information goes a long way to proving that he did not fly a Spitfire from Biggin during the war... I don't know what it does say about Lt. Col. Harold Arthur Raasch but the fact that his daughter lied about his demise a decade before it actually took place and that his son has gone from being quite keen to find out more about his father to threatening legal action if El Grifo continues pursuing this Spitfire crash line of investigation does say something.

If I had to bet, and being charitable, I'd bet Harold became increasingly delusional in his latter years. He's clearly not your typical Walter Mitty - he got shot down in a B-24 over Rumania and was held for a time as a PoW... Not generally the stuff Walters are made of.

I've done quite a bit of digging on Ancestry and the associated sites and I'm as happy as I have ever been that the gentleman I have documented, (albeit a little circuitously at times), is one single person, a retired Lt. Col. in the USAAF and father to Timothy D Raasch.

[Milo Minderbinder]

Chaps
we're retreading old ground here

To me all this can only work if the Private Rassch is identical with the later Lt Col Raasch, otherwise there are simply too many coincidences
He must have been in the far east as ground crew, was promoted to PFC, then commissioned as a Bombardier, flying from Italy, being shot down and imprisoned, and rising to Lt Col post war.
His service number was changed to reflect the commissioning, but this was not picked up by whoever was responsible for handing out the China service medal - hence the post war date, after he was commissioned.
The training time involved precludes any time with Spitfires in England, and anyway its clear he was a Bombardier
Whats starting to make me wonder, is the fact he was serving post war in Korea in an intelligence role. I'm just beginning to wonder if we've stumbled across a false history for an intelligence operative


PS - I first raised the suggestion the the private and the Lt Col were one and the same in post 218.!!!!

[El Grifo]

Whats starting to make me wonder, is the fact he was serving post war in Korea in an intelligence role. I'm just beginning to wonder if we've stumbled across a false history for an intelligence operative

Again, something which has not been furthest from my mind.

The idea however that Raasch's daughter lied to the landlady about his death is taking things a bit too far in my opinion. He was a regular visitor, His family must have known about his supposed quest. The B+B is a small and friendly 3 bedroom or so establishment. Friends were made. The advice of his death came a long while after his visit. There was no controversy at that time.

I am afraid I am unable to accept that. Maybe that is down to my limitations. Do not let my views impede the sterling work guys !

[Airborne Aircrew]

Are you sure the Harold Raasch that got the China Service Medal is our Harold Arthur Raasch. I say so because the China Service Medal was only awarded to US Navy, US Marines and US Coast Guard for service prior to 1939 and between September 2, 1945 and April 1, 1957. "Our" Harold was USAAF and would have been ineligible. Link

I'm not going down the route you've suggested re: false history...

[Milo Minderbinder]

Airborne
That comes from this document
The 6th Bomb Group: Ground Crew Listing - 40 BS
and its actually the "China Offensive Battle Star" Does that make more sense?
And it ties in with that other page which lists him out in the far east as a groundsman

............................................................ ..................
edit
did some digging and the China Offensive was apparently China 5 May 45 - 2 Sep 45. Our man was a POW then
So either there were two, or - more likely - the guy who complied the medal list failed to spot the promotion / transfer
Notes on Army Medals