Spitfire crash landing in Scotland WW11
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Detroit MI
Age: 66
Posts: 1,460
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I started by going through the thread and picking up all the clues I could to use as search ammunition...
Amazingly, I don't believe Harold Raasch(e)/Rasche/Rasch/Rausch(e)/Raße existed...
I can't find a single Harold or Harold A. Rxxx born in Canada period. I've tried Ancestry, FamilySearch.org and World Vital Records. Nothing. Furthermore, I can't find a Harold or Harold A. Rxxx that died in 1990, 1989 or 1988... The closest I get is a man in California but that year of death was 2004.
I've searched military records and can't come close to a match - certainly no RCAF or USAF flyers or ground crew and no RAF Officers.
I've searched immigration records from Canada to the USA... Nothing...
The current most recently available census year is 1940 in the USA but it is incompletely indexed so 1930 is the most recent complete index... There are a lot of Harold Raasch's in Wisconsin born between 1900 and 1915 and, if I were to guess, our Harold came from Wisconsin purely statistically.
While I have had problems finding quite specific information like a particular census record for a year for a person, (eg. the 1891 census record for someone I have the 1871, 1881, 1901 records for), I have rarely turned up a complete blank on someone which is puzzling. You can usually find a birth or death record that is feasible quite easily.
Is it possible our man was using a fake name?
Amazingly, I don't believe Harold Raasch(e)/Rasche/Rasch/Rausch(e)/Raße existed...
I can't find a single Harold or Harold A. Rxxx born in Canada period. I've tried Ancestry, FamilySearch.org and World Vital Records. Nothing. Furthermore, I can't find a Harold or Harold A. Rxxx that died in 1990, 1989 or 1988... The closest I get is a man in California but that year of death was 2004.
I've searched military records and can't come close to a match - certainly no RCAF or USAF flyers or ground crew and no RAF Officers.
I've searched immigration records from Canada to the USA... Nothing...
The current most recently available census year is 1940 in the USA but it is incompletely indexed so 1930 is the most recent complete index... There are a lot of Harold Raasch's in Wisconsin born between 1900 and 1915 and, if I were to guess, our Harold came from Wisconsin purely statistically.
While I have had problems finding quite specific information like a particular census record for a year for a person, (eg. the 1891 census record for someone I have the 1871, 1881, 1901 records for), I have rarely turned up a complete blank on someone which is puzzling. You can usually find a birth or death record that is feasible quite easily.
Is it possible our man was using a fake name?
Thread Starter
Bear in mind, he told me he was "from Canada" but the landlady thought he was American. The landlady connected him with an address in Sunnyvale California.
I do not believe he was using a false name as the communication from his daughter used the same name on the advice of his death.
I could contact the landlady and press her on a more accurate death notification date as she currently thinks around 2000 !
I do not believe he was using a false name as the communication from his daughter used the same name on the advice of his death.
I could contact the landlady and press her on a more accurate death notification date as she currently thinks around 2000 !
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Carlisle
Age: 70
Posts: 56
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi Folks, I've been following this thread with interest. Just a thought - could the pilot have been a Pole, Czech or suchlike (hence flying an RAF Spitfire) who subsequently settled in Canada or the USA after the war? That would explain the lack of BMD and census records from across the pond.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Denmark
Age: 79
Posts: 158
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There were a couple of posts last night regarding the "other" Harold A Raasch in the USAAF during WW2, i.e. PFC H.A. Raasch serving in 6. Bomb Group in the Far East.
Milo found out that there was no death certificate for this person - only for Lt. Col. H.A. Rasch. Therefore he correctly concluded that he either had died overseas or still was alive.
I once more searched the internet and found a gentleman with the exact name Harold Arthur Raasch living in Waynesboro VA - and being 88 years old.
This person must be the "other" Raasch. He was ruled out anyway as a possibility, so this just for the record.
Milo found out that there was no death certificate for this person - only for Lt. Col. H.A. Rasch. Therefore he correctly concluded that he either had died overseas or still was alive.
I once more searched the internet and found a gentleman with the exact name Harold Arthur Raasch living in Waynesboro VA - and being 88 years old.
This person must be the "other" Raasch. He was ruled out anyway as a possibility, so this just for the record.
Last edited by grebllaw123d; 2nd Jul 2012 at 18:30.
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: .
Posts: 2,173
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
mabmac
Problem with that idea is that Raasch is very much an east German name - not Pole or Czech. He would have had to have been something like a Sudeten German who was anti-Nazi......even assuming such a person could escape the Nazis, would he have been allowed anywhere near a Spitfire?
The idea isn't impossible, just sounds unlikely
Problem with that idea is that Raasch is very much an east German name - not Pole or Czech. He would have had to have been something like a Sudeten German who was anti-Nazi......even assuming such a person could escape the Nazis, would he have been allowed anywhere near a Spitfire?
The idea isn't impossible, just sounds unlikely
Last edited by Milo Minderbinder; 2nd Jul 2012 at 18:27.
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: .
Posts: 2,173
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So what Airborne Aircrew has successfully proved is that the underlying premise of the whole story is wrong: there was no Canadian Harold A Raasch
So what options do we have?
1) the visitor was one of the two H A Raasches we've found but he lied about his reasons, history and over flying the aircraft
2) El Grifo misunderstood what he was told, or memory has dimmed with time
3) the visitor was an unknown person who assumed the identity of H A Raasch
None are palatable answers, but I can't see any other realistic options
So what options do we have?
1) the visitor was one of the two H A Raasches we've found but he lied about his reasons, history and over flying the aircraft
2) El Grifo misunderstood what he was told, or memory has dimmed with time
3) the visitor was an unknown person who assumed the identity of H A Raasch
None are palatable answers, but I can't see any other realistic options
Thread Starter
2) El Grifo misunderstood what he was told, or memory has dimmed with time
This new idea that he was not necesarily born In Canada or the US but maybe settled there after the war may hold some credence, No ?
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: .
Posts: 2,173
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I thought about this some time ago but disregarded it
Him being a foreigner only works if he was a German national who crashed a German aircraft there. However I don't believe theres a record of that happening. However by a strange quirk, the local Observer Corps post is recorded on the internet as being the first to pick up Rudolph Hess's aircraft when he flew in.
I suppose theres a chance that a German of that name may have crashed elsewhere and got the location wrong....
Is there a central listing of crashed German aircrew or POWs in the UK? We know a Raasch died off Shetland, were there any more?
Him being a foreigner only works if he was a German national who crashed a German aircraft there. However I don't believe theres a record of that happening. However by a strange quirk, the local Observer Corps post is recorded on the internet as being the first to pick up Rudolph Hess's aircraft when he flew in.
I suppose theres a chance that a German of that name may have crashed elsewhere and got the location wrong....
Is there a central listing of crashed German aircrew or POWs in the UK? We know a Raasch died off Shetland, were there any more?
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Denmark
Age: 79
Posts: 158
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Even greater puzzle...
El Grifo,
I also count out 2).
Airborne Aircrew writes:
"I've searched military records and can't come close to a match - certainly no RCAF or USAF flyers or ground crew and no RAF Officers", which IMHO means that the guy did not tell you the truth regarding his forced landing etc. during WW2, as he never flew a Spitfire.
He must have had other and very good reasons for repeatly travelling from overseas to visit a small Scottish town.
Who was he? What was his real quest?
Could be a combination of 1) and 3).
I also count out 2).
Airborne Aircrew writes:
"I've searched military records and can't come close to a match - certainly no RCAF or USAF flyers or ground crew and no RAF Officers", which IMHO means that the guy did not tell you the truth regarding his forced landing etc. during WW2, as he never flew a Spitfire.
He must have had other and very good reasons for repeatly travelling from overseas to visit a small Scottish town.
Who was he? What was his real quest?
Could be a combination of 1) and 3).
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Detroit MI
Age: 66
Posts: 1,460
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bear in mind, he told me he was "from Canada" but the landlady thought he was American.
grebllaw123d:
according his obituary he was "A native of Milwaukee".
I can see one place things might start to fit. If the landlady is way off on the year of death. Then you have the Milwaukee born Harold Raasch dying in the appropriate area of California in 2004... IIRC, (I forgot my notes at work), he was born in 1913 making him around 40 when the war was going on and in his seventies when El Grifo met him.
Thread Starter
The area was definitley on the overfly route for bombing the Clyde area.
Records and emails to me tell of returning german aircraft, jettisoning unused bombs.
Would be interested in a pointer tolocal ROC records
Records and emails to me tell of returning german aircraft, jettisoning unused bombs.
Would be interested in a pointer tolocal ROC records
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: .
Posts: 2,173
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Airborne
then thats a different Harold Raasch, not the Lt Col. His birth/death years were 1924 / 2000, and also not the PFC who was born 1924 and has no death record
Maybe he's the third man?
then thats a different Harold Raasch, not the Lt Col. His birth/death years were 1924 / 2000, and also not the PFC who was born 1924 and has no death record
Maybe he's the third man?
Thread Starter
I will get back to the landlady Tuesday to see if I can get a better timing regarding the notification.
Shooting out on a limb here, remember he came in to get a price for the photshoot, maybe by saying he was "from Canada" he thought he would get a better price than if he said he was an American (rich Yank image and all that)
Only sayin !
Shooting out on a limb here, remember he came in to get a price for the photshoot, maybe by saying he was "from Canada" he thought he would get a better price than if he said he was an American (rich Yank image and all that)
Only sayin !
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Detroit MI
Age: 66
Posts: 1,460
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'll get my notes tomorrow and lay out the details of every Harold Raasch that seems reasonable...
I will say that, upon reflection, I think te Canadian angle is a deception. With no evidence of a Canadian H Raasch and the fact that, he'd he been visiting the UK a lot it's probably quite probable that at some time he'd been told that the Brits aren't too keen on Yanks so saying you're a Canadian is much better. I can say that with a little authority since I did see the mild discrimination my American wife had inflicted upon her in 1987...
I will say that, upon reflection, I think te Canadian angle is a deception. With no evidence of a Canadian H Raasch and the fact that, he'd he been visiting the UK a lot it's probably quite probable that at some time he'd been told that the Brits aren't too keen on Yanks so saying you're a Canadian is much better. I can say that with a little authority since I did see the mild discrimination my American wife had inflicted upon her in 1987...
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Denmark
Age: 79
Posts: 158
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
El Grifo,
Some time ago you were in contact with the Rev. Tim Raasch, who however broke all contacts with you.
I wonder, if the Rev. gave you information, which supports the theory that his father was the man, who came to your shop in Selkirk?
Some time ago you were in contact with the Rev. Tim Raasch, who however broke all contacts with you.
I wonder, if the Rev. gave you information, which supports the theory that his father was the man, who came to your shop in Selkirk?
Thread Starter
I was in contact with him a recently as JUne 26th when he told me to rerfrain from any further research into his father on threat of legal action.
His first communication of several months ago was of an entirely different flavour. I told him exactly the same story as I have told here. If this story had not tied up which somthing of which he was aware, surely he would had said so at the time. Instead, this was his reply :-
His first communication of several months ago was of an entirely different flavour. I told him exactly the same story as I have told here. If this story had not tied up which somthing of which he was aware, surely he would had said so at the time. Instead, this was his reply :-
Thanks for your email. And your unexpected story. I'd like to talk further but not right now as Lent has begun and it's quite busy here.
Your conversations with my Dad apparently struck a deep chord and I am moved by your taking time to research and try to contact his family. I am struck first by your response to those conversations and years later picking up the thread.I'm not sure how to respond right now as your story and memories are about my father. If you can understand, I ask you, for the time being, to put on hold any further research about him, at least until we talk further
Your conversations with my Dad apparently struck a deep chord and I am moved by your taking time to research and try to contact his family. I am struck first by your response to those conversations and years later picking up the thread.I'm not sure how to respond right now as your story and memories are about my father. If you can understand, I ask you, for the time being, to put on hold any further research about him, at least until we talk further
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Detroit MI
Age: 66
Posts: 1,460
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Funny, the Rev. appears reticent to discuss even then... He's politely evaded the issue while hoping you'd drop your research by the time he's ready to talk...
I'm starting to get a "not so good" feeling about this altogether...
I'm starting to get a "not so good" feeling about this altogether...
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: .
Posts: 2,173
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
that statement from the Rev is not enough to confirm who you met - its possibly explainable as him accepting at face value your statement that the two of you met even though he has no personal knowledge of such a meet.
The way he's phrased it is very open to interpretation e.g. when he says "Your conversations with my Dad apparently struck a deep chord " he means in YOU, not in his father. Later on when he talks of his father, he is talking about the information you have just given him - which is new to him, and at odds with the facts as he knows them. Hence the delay tactic - and the later change in apparent attitude.
What we know of his fathers life simply does not fit the history as you were told by the visitor.
One thing that may help if its there - has anyone accessed the obit of the Lt Col in the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel? If it has a photo of the man it may clear the mystery over the ID
The way he's phrased it is very open to interpretation e.g. when he says "Your conversations with my Dad apparently struck a deep chord " he means in YOU, not in his father. Later on when he talks of his father, he is talking about the information you have just given him - which is new to him, and at odds with the facts as he knows them. Hence the delay tactic - and the later change in apparent attitude.
What we know of his fathers life simply does not fit the history as you were told by the visitor.
One thing that may help if its there - has anyone accessed the obit of the Lt Col in the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel? If it has a photo of the man it may clear the mystery over the ID