Spitfire crash landing in Scotland WW11
I've been reading this from day one, and am fascinated.
Driving home last night, I had the same thought about Intelligence and cover story.
This evening I had another thought (only allowed one a day).
If it was cover - or any false pretence - what else might the desire for a professionally taken picture be? Anything sensitive in view? Was it to include him in the shot?
Cast your mind back EG.
Driving home last night, I had the same thought about Intelligence and cover story.
This evening I had another thought (only allowed one a day).
If it was cover - or any false pretence - what else might the desire for a professionally taken picture be? Anything sensitive in view? Was it to include him in the shot?
Cast your mind back EG.
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OK... Harold O. Rasch... I don't think he's our chap... Which is a good thing because it seems like, other than joining the Marines and dying, he spent the better part of his life avoiding information gatherers.. All I have on Harold O. is:-
Interesting that the Findagrave record mis-transcribed his year of death but mis-transcriptions are not uncommon in the genealogy world.
Alport Pa is deep in the back country of PA by the look of it, (northwest of Harrisburg), so being missed by such things as census' isn't too shocking. Hence, the only time he ventured out of the woods is when they got information on him.
From here
Birth: 1925
Death: 1989
Inscription: US Marines WWII
Burial: Allport Cemetery Allport Clearfield County Pennsylvania, USA
Plot: B33
His Veterans Burial Card states:-
Name: Harold O Rasch
Birth Date: 23 Jun 1925
Death Date: 21 Jun 1998
Age: 72
Military Branch: Marines
Veteran of Which War: World War II
Cemetery Name: Allport Cemetery
Cemetery Location: Allport, Pennsylvania
Birth: 1925
Death: 1989
Inscription: US Marines WWII
Burial: Allport Cemetery Allport Clearfield County Pennsylvania, USA
Plot: B33
His Veterans Burial Card states:-
Name: Harold O Rasch
Birth Date: 23 Jun 1925
Death Date: 21 Jun 1998
Age: 72
Military Branch: Marines
Veteran of Which War: World War II
Cemetery Name: Allport Cemetery
Cemetery Location: Allport, Pennsylvania
Alport Pa is deep in the back country of PA by the look of it, (northwest of Harrisburg), so being missed by such things as census' isn't too shocking. Hence, the only time he ventured out of the woods is when they got information on him.
Thread Starter
Eventually you will come up with something AA.
You guys are excellent when it comes to sleuthing !!
boguing, unless the real target was a special breeding ram or some such similar animal , there is absolutely nothing around there apart from boggy ground.
Google Map Ashkirk and look NW where you will see a loch (lake)
The aircraft came down on the flat ground on the NW side of that.
You will see the drainage ditches quit clearly
You guys are excellent when it comes to sleuthing !!
boguing, unless the real target was a special breeding ram or some such similar animal , there is absolutely nothing around there apart from boggy ground.
Google Map Ashkirk and look NW where you will see a loch (lake)
The aircraft came down on the flat ground on the NW side of that.
You will see the drainage ditches quit clearly
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I am convinced that the veteran's website is correct regarding the name Harold Raasch - he may have had a middle name though, but it may have been omitted (no name on the list is shown with a middle name or initial).
I also believe that this Harold flew the Hurricane in the RAF - no doubt about that.
But what could be in error on the website is the year of death - not the first time we have seen that error.
I do not know if it does a great difference for Airborne Aircrew's search if the year of death was like 5 years earlier? Just a thought.
I also believe that this Harold flew the Hurricane in the RAF - no doubt about that.
But what could be in error on the website is the year of death - not the first time we have seen that error.
I do not know if it does a great difference for Airborne Aircrew's search if the year of death was like 5 years earlier? Just a thought.
Last edited by grebllaw123d; 7th Jul 2012 at 21:26.
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El G:
You keep sending them... I'll keep digging them up...
For those that feel uncomfortable with that... Please remember, I have no special access to anything you don't... I've just opened my wallet annually so I can quickly and easily search for genealogical information on my family which gives me access to all the publicly available information available about a lot of people. Hence, there is no breach of anyone's privacy in what I do...
I just wanted to make that clear for the squeamish amongst us... Think of it as a lesson in how much is really out there about you... I don't even start with the phone numbers etc...
You keep sending them... I'll keep digging them up...
For those that feel uncomfortable with that... Please remember, I have no special access to anything you don't... I've just opened my wallet annually so I can quickly and easily search for genealogical information on my family which gives me access to all the publicly available information available about a lot of people. Hence, there is no breach of anyone's privacy in what I do...
I just wanted to make that clear for the squeamish amongst us... Think of it as a lesson in how much is really out there about you... I don't even start with the phone numbers etc...
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grebllaw123d:
The chap I was sent the information on was exactly the same chap I found. Their Social Security Numbers matched which is a lock.
Transcription errors are usually "logical". 1895 rather than 1985... 1987 or 1985 rather than 1986. As the number on the keyboard gets further from the actual number the chances get less that it is a transcription error. So if 1985 was the original number then 1984 and 1986 are very reasonable. 1983 and 1987 less so and so on... When the number changed passes a ten number like 1990 the chances of it being a transcription error fade to zero. Generally, a five year error is not an error.
That's just my experience... If you wander around my family web site you'll find a lot of examples where I add "Speculative Research" records... It's quite often where dates don't gel but there are sufficient other "coincidences" that I have to keep the record... Just in case...
The chap I was sent the information on was exactly the same chap I found. Their Social Security Numbers matched which is a lock.
Transcription errors are usually "logical". 1895 rather than 1985... 1987 or 1985 rather than 1986. As the number on the keyboard gets further from the actual number the chances get less that it is a transcription error. So if 1985 was the original number then 1984 and 1986 are very reasonable. 1983 and 1987 less so and so on... When the number changed passes a ten number like 1990 the chances of it being a transcription error fade to zero. Generally, a five year error is not an error.
That's just my experience... If you wander around my family web site you'll find a lot of examples where I add "Speculative Research" records... It's quite often where dates don't gel but there are sufficient other "coincidences" that I have to keep the record... Just in case...
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AA
He's talking about that chap listed as deceased on the veterans website who appears to have died the year before he El Grifo had his meeting. So far no-one matching that name / date has turned up on any of the genealogical lists
He now seems the most likely candidate - just waiting now in the hope El G gets a response. It wouldn't surprise me if that date on the site is wrong.
To me its becoming more and more likely that the Lt.Col is completely the wrong man, and that his sons reaction reflects this
The one other question uncovered at present is the relevance of the Norwegian Hurricane forced landing at an unknown site - its difficult to know how to follow that up
He's talking about that chap listed as deceased on the veterans website who appears to have died the year before he El Grifo had his meeting. So far no-one matching that name / date has turned up on any of the genealogical lists
He now seems the most likely candidate - just waiting now in the hope El G gets a response. It wouldn't surprise me if that date on the site is wrong.
To me its becoming more and more likely that the Lt.Col is completely the wrong man, and that his sons reaction reflects this
The one other question uncovered at present is the relevance of the Norwegian Hurricane forced landing at an unknown site - its difficult to know how to follow that up
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Milo:
I'm sorry... But sometimes, who is talking about who get's a little confusing on this end... I have so many Harold Raasch's and variants of the name going around in my head that it all becomes a bit overwhelming...
I'm sorry... But sometimes, who is talking about who get's a little confusing on this end... I have so many Harold Raasch's and variants of the name going around in my head that it all becomes a bit overwhelming...
Discussed this with Sis, whilst wandering the homeplace, deciding on pruning etc.
Sis is a legal eagle with 20 odd years experience of digging out family histories.
Her off hand conclusion is that either Harald is a Walt, or he has a second "unknown" family...apparently quite common in those days...
Sis is a legal eagle with 20 odd years experience of digging out family histories.
Her off hand conclusion is that either Harald is a Walt, or he has a second "unknown" family...apparently quite common in those days...
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Mini:
I think, if you read back through my posts, you'll find that I have similar suspicions. To the point where I have said that Harold A. Raasch, (1924), is not the material a "walt" is made of - he had a genuine history.
There is something that isn't right about this story, which is part of the reason it intrigues me. Though I do think, that when all is said and done, the truth will prove to be quite benign.
It's all too easy to think the worst... In my experience, thinking the worst often comes back to slap you in the bottom..
I think, if you read back through my posts, you'll find that I have similar suspicions. To the point where I have said that Harold A. Raasch, (1924), is not the material a "walt" is made of - he had a genuine history.
There is something that isn't right about this story, which is part of the reason it intrigues me. Though I do think, that when all is said and done, the truth will prove to be quite benign.
It's all too easy to think the worst... In my experience, thinking the worst often comes back to slap you in the bottom..
Thread Starter
When I started this thread, I did so because the story was so unusual.
Overshooting Biggin and landing near Selkirk was just too much of a stretch !
As I said, I thought he had panicked and turned tail from a fight and just kept on going. That was my thoughts a couple of days after I met him.
I kept these thoughts to myself for a long long time as "thoughts!" were all they were!
This is what is intruiging here. Is the guy who he said he was. Did he indeed crash land a Spit at Haremoss. If not who was he and why was he telling the story.
One again he was a tall, dignified, well dressed, silver haired gentleman. All the people that I talked to who met him describe him in the same way.
He did not fit the picture of some dodgy character !
Bear in mind Milo, from the outset I said the he told me he was Canadian, it was the landlady who thought he was American due to his CA address.
He was certainly not British, of that I am sure !
Overshooting Biggin and landing near Selkirk was just too much of a stretch !
As I said, I thought he had panicked and turned tail from a fight and just kept on going. That was my thoughts a couple of days after I met him.
I kept these thoughts to myself for a long long time as "thoughts!" were all they were!
This is what is intruiging here. Is the guy who he said he was. Did he indeed crash land a Spit at Haremoss. If not who was he and why was he telling the story.
One again he was a tall, dignified, well dressed, silver haired gentleman. All the people that I talked to who met him describe him in the same way.
He did not fit the picture of some dodgy character !
Bear in mind Milo, from the outset I said the he told me he was Canadian, it was the landlady who thought he was American due to his CA address.
He was certainly not British, of that I am sure !
Last edited by El Grifo; 8th Jul 2012 at 10:40.
Thread Starter
Gentle and carefuly couched email sent to "Departures"
The photograph of the Norwegian pilot Pilot - Fnr Stein Sem who crashed whilst out of Catterick, bears no resemblence whatsoever to the "Harold" who visited me.
The photograph of The Rev. Tim however could almost be his double. The resemblence is spooky !
AA, my "not British " is in response to Milo's
The photograph of the Norwegian pilot Pilot - Fnr Stein Sem who crashed whilst out of Catterick, bears no resemblence whatsoever to the "Harold" who visited me.
The photograph of The Rev. Tim however could almost be his double. The resemblence is spooky !
AA, my "not British " is in response to Milo's
He doesn't seem to show up anywhere on the online databases - which makes me wonder if he is Canadian or British
El Grifo - do you think it's possible that a Spitfire could have crashed on the location he claimed it did without anybody being aware of it or having any recollection of it whatsoever? (notwithstanding the reported 'Hurricane' crash on the same site)
Presumably the man flying it would know the difference between a Spit and a Hurri, and thus the new 'RAF-winged' Raasch who has appeared most recently is almost certainly of no interest other than for the purposes of positive elimination? I know the Hurri didn't get the same headlines as the Spit, but would a Hurri pilot still not be sufficiently proud of his machine to pin his colours to the Hurri's mast?!
As for the idea of a 'second family', is the area 'local' enough that the presence of a resident American would get picked upon? It certainly sounds like he drew plenty of attention in the '80s.... Would the same have been true 40 years or so earlier?
Presumably the man flying it would know the difference between a Spit and a Hurri, and thus the new 'RAF-winged' Raasch who has appeared most recently is almost certainly of no interest other than for the purposes of positive elimination? I know the Hurri didn't get the same headlines as the Spit, but would a Hurri pilot still not be sufficiently proud of his machine to pin his colours to the Hurri's mast?!
As for the idea of a 'second family', is the area 'local' enough that the presence of a resident American would get picked upon? It certainly sounds like he drew plenty of attention in the '80s.... Would the same have been true 40 years or so earlier?
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El Grifo,
Just for info: The Norwegian pilot S. Sem got killed in the summer of 1944 - acc. a website in Norwegian language.
Just for info: The Norwegian pilot S. Sem got killed in the summer of 1944 - acc. a website in Norwegian language.
Last edited by grebllaw123d; 8th Jul 2012 at 11:52.
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El G:
I was injecting some levity... hence the...
However, something KarlADrage just said got me thinking... We have a single, confirmed aircraft landing/crashing in that field. We have a person that still lives in the town that remembers it. What are the chances of a second aircraft landing/crashing in the same place? We're not talking about a field close to an active airfield which would raise the odds significantly, we're talking about a random field in the middle of nowhere. Then, what are the chances of the person who remembers our first landing/crash being blissfully unaware of the second. It would have been huge news in that small town, but it just slipped by him?
I did the Google Map thing you suggested... Then zoomed out not in. That particular field is remarkable in one way, it's so utterly unremarkable in the area. There's any number of fields in that area that are as suited for a forced landing. Bearing in mind your gentleman "ran out of fuel" he had one go at landing and he picked exactly the same field in the middle of nowhere that the Norgie had picked after multiple attempts elsewhere.
It doesn't add up...
I was injecting some levity... hence the
... However, something KarlADrage just said got me thinking... We have a single, confirmed aircraft landing/crashing in that field. We have a person that still lives in the town that remembers it. What are the chances of a second aircraft landing/crashing in the same place? We're not talking about a field close to an active airfield which would raise the odds significantly, we're talking about a random field in the middle of nowhere. Then, what are the chances of the person who remembers our first landing/crash being blissfully unaware of the second. It would have been huge news in that small town, but it just slipped by him?
I did the Google Map thing you suggested... Then zoomed out not in. That particular field is remarkable in one way, it's so utterly unremarkable in the area. There's any number of fields in that area that are as suited for a forced landing. Bearing in mind your gentleman "ran out of fuel" he had one go at landing and he picked exactly the same field in the middle of nowhere that the Norgie had picked after multiple attempts elsewhere.
It doesn't add up...
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AA,
No, it doesn't add up...
I am convinced that there was ONLY one forced landing at the site we are talking about, and IMO the landing in question is the one mr. Phaup is referring to.
No, it doesn't add up...
I am convinced that there was ONLY one forced landing at the site we are talking about, and IMO the landing in question is the one mr. Phaup is referring to.
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Lets try to summarize all this
We know there was one forced landing in the field, early war. Local knowledge says this was a Norwegian piloted Hurricane. We've found a possible candidate for this in Fnr Stein Sem who also had a forced landing at an unknown location due to engine problems. However we can't prove he was the pilot involved, or that his forced landing was the one involved.
We have the man whom El Grifo met in 1988, who was stated to have died in 1990 by someone claiming to be his daughter, and had an interest in coal mines. This same man claimed to have survived a forced landing in a Spitfire following an overshoot from Biggin Hill. I take this to mean he was based at Biggin, and made a mistake in returning there. This man appears to have been either Canadian or American, and called himself Harold A Raasch.
We've identified that one of the Eagle Squadrons was based at Biggin, on one occasion with Hurricanes, and later with Spitfires. We've also identified two USAAF Spitfire fighter squadons based at Biggin. (I'll discount the American PR Spitfire squadrons as they were never based at Biggin.
However we have no evidence that this incident ever happened - or if it did, that it happened at that location. My view is that it did happen, but somewhere else and the site has been misidentified by the pilot. After 40 years, to a American one bit of Scots bog will look much like any other.
We've identified a number of people named Harold Rassch who have some connection with the British or American air forces. Only three seem relevant.
First the Harold Raasch who served as Ground Crewman in a Bomber Wing in the far east and qualified for a Chinese campaign star, so eliminating him on grounds of date.
Secondly we've found Lt.Col Harold A Raasch, who we know was a Bombardier in Italy, was shot down and became a POW. We've not found any evidence of service in the UK. Postwar he served in "air force intelligence" in Manilla, and later in a vaguely described role in the USA. My suspicion is that he was a signals intelligence analyst, but thats conjecture. What we do know is he died in 2000. Not 1990
Third the Harold Raasch listed on a USA veterans website as having RAF wings, was a Hurricane pilot, and died in 1997. This seems the most likely candidate Its also significant that he's described as a Hurricane pilot. Most (all?) fighter squadrons upgraded to Spitfires later in the war. To have remained a Hurricane pilot suggests he was in one of the "Hurribomber" squadrons - which were used in North Africa / Italy by the USAAF
So what options are open to progress this?
First - does anyone have any links to Scandinavian military historians, or websites where someone may have information
Second - I don't believe the Lt.Col has anything to do with this, I'm convinced that his sons indignation is genuine and that we should leave well alone
Third - we need information from the veterans website organisation -if they are willing to provide. El Grifo has already requested this
Fourth - In post 339 a link is made to this forum Americans RAF RCAF and USAAF WWII where one of the contributors is researching U.S. citizens who served with the RAF and RCAF during WWII. Has anyone approached him for information?
We need to try and find if any pilot named Raasch served in the UK or Canadian forces
We know there was one forced landing in the field, early war. Local knowledge says this was a Norwegian piloted Hurricane. We've found a possible candidate for this in Fnr Stein Sem who also had a forced landing at an unknown location due to engine problems. However we can't prove he was the pilot involved, or that his forced landing was the one involved.
We have the man whom El Grifo met in 1988, who was stated to have died in 1990 by someone claiming to be his daughter, and had an interest in coal mines. This same man claimed to have survived a forced landing in a Spitfire following an overshoot from Biggin Hill. I take this to mean he was based at Biggin, and made a mistake in returning there. This man appears to have been either Canadian or American, and called himself Harold A Raasch.
We've identified that one of the Eagle Squadrons was based at Biggin, on one occasion with Hurricanes, and later with Spitfires. We've also identified two USAAF Spitfire fighter squadons based at Biggin. (I'll discount the American PR Spitfire squadrons as they were never based at Biggin.
However we have no evidence that this incident ever happened - or if it did, that it happened at that location. My view is that it did happen, but somewhere else and the site has been misidentified by the pilot. After 40 years, to a American one bit of Scots bog will look much like any other.
We've identified a number of people named Harold Rassch who have some connection with the British or American air forces. Only three seem relevant.
First the Harold Raasch who served as Ground Crewman in a Bomber Wing in the far east and qualified for a Chinese campaign star, so eliminating him on grounds of date.
Secondly we've found Lt.Col Harold A Raasch, who we know was a Bombardier in Italy, was shot down and became a POW. We've not found any evidence of service in the UK. Postwar he served in "air force intelligence" in Manilla, and later in a vaguely described role in the USA. My suspicion is that he was a signals intelligence analyst, but thats conjecture. What we do know is he died in 2000. Not 1990
Third the Harold Raasch listed on a USA veterans website as having RAF wings, was a Hurricane pilot, and died in 1997. This seems the most likely candidate Its also significant that he's described as a Hurricane pilot. Most (all?) fighter squadrons upgraded to Spitfires later in the war. To have remained a Hurricane pilot suggests he was in one of the "Hurribomber" squadrons - which were used in North Africa / Italy by the USAAF
So what options are open to progress this?
First - does anyone have any links to Scandinavian military historians, or websites where someone may have information
Second - I don't believe the Lt.Col has anything to do with this, I'm convinced that his sons indignation is genuine and that we should leave well alone
Third - we need information from the veterans website organisation -if they are willing to provide. El Grifo has already requested this
Fourth - In post 339 a link is made to this forum Americans RAF RCAF and USAAF WWII where one of the contributors is researching U.S. citizens who served with the RAF and RCAF during WWII. Has anyone approached him for information?
We need to try and find if any pilot named Raasch served in the UK or Canadian forces
Last edited by Milo Minderbinder; 8th Jul 2012 at 15:32.