Spitfire crash landing in Scotland WW11
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could you have misunderstood him saying he was in the Canadian Forces? rather than actually being Canadian?
just a hypothesis
Otherwise we have to assume theres a Canadian of the same name who lived in California who has not yet shown up....I can understand a canadian not showing up, but not one in California, he'd be on a list somewhere
How easy is it to pull service records of USA airmen? It would be interesting to see when and where both Lt Col Raasch and PFC Raasch served
just a hypothesis
Otherwise we have to assume theres a Canadian of the same name who lived in California who has not yet shown up....I can understand a canadian not showing up, but not one in California, he'd be on a list somewhere
How easy is it to pull service records of USA airmen? It would be interesting to see when and where both Lt Col Raasch and PFC Raasch served
Thread Starter
Milo. I have gone over things again and can only confirm that the guy did tell me that he was Canadian.
I talked to the B+B lady in Scotland last night, she thought he was American. He had stayed with her several times, each time on the quest to locate and revisit the scene of the crash landing.
His story was that unable to land his Spitfire at Biggin because of fog, he followed the east coast until he evenually spotted the Eildon Hills in the Scotish Borders poking out of the mist. He turned and headed towards them in order to get his bearings. He then run out of fuel and made a belly landing on the moss at Headshaw.
This chimes very well with the storty from Mr Phaup
Another person From Selkirk called me last night only to say that he remembers Raasch weel as he used to hire a car from him most times on his visits. He remembers him in much the way as I do, Tall distiguished gentelman with a long poplin type raincoat. He also confirms that Raasch made multiple visits to the town from the Sseventies onwards.
Whe the landlady of the B+B received the notification of his death from the daughter, it came from the US. She has no further details.
I talked to the B+B lady in Scotland last night, she thought he was American. He had stayed with her several times, each time on the quest to locate and revisit the scene of the crash landing.
His story was that unable to land his Spitfire at Biggin because of fog, he followed the east coast until he evenually spotted the Eildon Hills in the Scotish Borders poking out of the mist. He turned and headed towards them in order to get his bearings. He then run out of fuel and made a belly landing on the moss at Headshaw.
This chimes very well with the storty from Mr Phaup
Mr Phaup, who says he was in his 20s at the time of the next incident, says this involved a Hurricane fighter being flown by a Norwegian.
“It too came out of the fog and made a couple of attempts to land in front of the house at Ashkirk Town. He then tried to land at Headshaw, where there was some flat ground, but the aircraft went into some ditches and turned over. It happened opposite the old quarry.
“People from Selkirk came up on their bicycles to look at the aircraft. We went up to see it as well. It was lying upside down and RAF men were taking it apart and putting it on a low-loader to take away.
“Police told us the pilot had been a Norwegian and he’d survived just a broken nose after running out of fuel.”
“It too came out of the fog and made a couple of attempts to land in front of the house at Ashkirk Town. He then tried to land at Headshaw, where there was some flat ground, but the aircraft went into some ditches and turned over. It happened opposite the old quarry.
“People from Selkirk came up on their bicycles to look at the aircraft. We went up to see it as well. It was lying upside down and RAF men were taking it apart and putting it on a low-loader to take away.
“Police told us the pilot had been a Norwegian and he’d survived just a broken nose after running out of fuel.”
Whe the landlady of the B+B received the notification of his death from the daughter, it came from the US. She has no further details.
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El Grifo:
Sorry, but the two stories really don't gel... There's a huge difference between a wheels up forced landing due to running out of fumes and several go around's before selecting another landing ground and making a final approach.
No matter how fuzzy the memories would get a single approach with no fuel wouldn't be confused with several attempts to land with fuel. At least, I don't think the two could be confused.
Sorry, but the two stories really don't gel... There's a huge difference between a wheels up forced landing due to running out of fumes and several go around's before selecting another landing ground and making a final approach.
No matter how fuzzy the memories would get a single approach with no fuel wouldn't be confused with several attempts to land with fuel. At least, I don't think the two could be confused.
Thread Starter
I am only trying to make sense of the situation.
The Mr Phaup in question must be well into his eighties.
The flat land in question is in fact a bog and about the only large flat area around. Maybe the guy was circling to dump height, I don't know.
The thing is, the similarities rather than the differences are what get me !
Foggy/misty day, exact same location, pilot escapes with no injury.
If you have any other theories, then great ! I am simply pushing possibliities as far as poss in order to try and solve this mystery.
Should I be asking any more questions locally. I understand that Mr Phaup is still alive !
Cheers
El G.
The Mr Phaup in question must be well into his eighties.
The flat land in question is in fact a bog and about the only large flat area around. Maybe the guy was circling to dump height, I don't know.
The thing is, the similarities rather than the differences are what get me !
Foggy/misty day, exact same location, pilot escapes with no injury.
If you have any other theories, then great ! I am simply pushing possibliities as far as poss in order to try and solve this mystery.
Should I be asking any more questions locally. I understand that Mr Phaup is still alive !
Cheers
El G.
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FWIW I've found that Raasch is (at least in the USA) a Lutheran name and a number of them emigrated to Wisconsin from eastern Germany in the 1860s.
Short enough period for there still to be some family ties with the old country given the strong Lutheran traditions of family
In a different direction, just took a look at Honours and Awards » Air Force Association of Canada
Checked for awards/decorations of anyone named Raasch in the RCAF, or any Canadians in the RAF. Totally blank result.
So, if he was Canadian, he didn't get any decorations.
Short enough period for there still to be some family ties with the old country given the strong Lutheran traditions of family
In a different direction, just took a look at Honours and Awards » Air Force Association of Canada
Checked for awards/decorations of anyone named Raasch in the RCAF, or any Canadians in the RAF. Totally blank result.
So, if he was Canadian, he didn't get any decorations.
Last edited by Milo Minderbinder; 29th Jun 2012 at 12:53.
Thread Starter
So are we supposing that the Rev Tim Raasch who was originally happy to help with enquiries about his father, the guy that visited my shop, has nothing to do with anything.
That seemed to be a hot lead that came to and end very abruptly for some reason.
I admire your sleuthing skills Milo, Do you have the time or inclination to investigate that further.
I have just returned from a job In Cuba and I going crazy with post production right now !
TF its Friday
That seemed to be a hot lead that came to and end very abruptly for some reason.
I admire your sleuthing skills Milo, Do you have the time or inclination to investigate that further.
I have just returned from a job In Cuba and I going crazy with post production right now !
TF its Friday
Harold Raasch was my father. Not yours. I appreciate that you met him years ago and was struck by his story. I have requested once and will do so again, as is my right as a member of the family, that you refrain from any more research into the life and journey of my father.
Last edited by El Grifo; 29th Jun 2012 at 13:05.
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Question
Is there a confirmed link between the man who visited your shop and claimed to be Canadian, and Tim Raasch's father? I don't think that has been established at all. The linkage is just conjecture.
The father was born in Wisconsin, not Canada, in 1924. We know he served in the USA forces and was probably called up in 1941 or 1942, so very unlikely he served with the Canadians unless he joined up underage - but we have no evidence of that. All we know is that he was a bombardier in a wing based in Italy, and I would suggest never visited the UK.
That rules out any contact with a Norwegian pilot - unless some Norwegians were trained in the USA?? Or unless Raasch did first join up in Canada.
But then why visit a location where someone else just happened to have a bad landing? Its not a memorial site - no-one died there.
Raasch himself couldn't havebeen flying the Hurricane - he was a Bombardier, not a pilot.
The other Harold Raasch we've found was ground crew based out in the far east, so the chances of it being him are even less.
So what are we faced with?
Either
1) A THIRD Harold A Raasch, a Canadian whom so far we have not identified, who later moved to California. But if he existed, he's not showing up in online records
or
2) A walter mitty
or
3) We've found the correct guy, but his motives have been misidentified. It seems likely that he was returning in some act of commoration, but of who? A Norwegian pilot he was unlikely ever to have met, at a site that had no significance? Unlikely. A family member? More likely. But which family member - there's no matching crash. I think its more likely that somewhere along the line he mixed up the crash at Selkirk, with the Ju-88 crash at Sumburgh, Shetland, and that he thought thats where Obfw F.Raasch died.
He wouldn't have been able to visit the family, as it appears they probably came from EAST Germany.
I think he had a need to find a distant relative, got the site wrong, and kept his real reasons for visiting to himself. A reason that his relatives have no sympathy for and simply want to forget
Is there a confirmed link between the man who visited your shop and claimed to be Canadian, and Tim Raasch's father? I don't think that has been established at all. The linkage is just conjecture.
The father was born in Wisconsin, not Canada, in 1924. We know he served in the USA forces and was probably called up in 1941 or 1942, so very unlikely he served with the Canadians unless he joined up underage - but we have no evidence of that. All we know is that he was a bombardier in a wing based in Italy, and I would suggest never visited the UK.
That rules out any contact with a Norwegian pilot - unless some Norwegians were trained in the USA?? Or unless Raasch did first join up in Canada.
But then why visit a location where someone else just happened to have a bad landing? Its not a memorial site - no-one died there.
Raasch himself couldn't havebeen flying the Hurricane - he was a Bombardier, not a pilot.
The other Harold Raasch we've found was ground crew based out in the far east, so the chances of it being him are even less.
So what are we faced with?
Either
1) A THIRD Harold A Raasch, a Canadian whom so far we have not identified, who later moved to California. But if he existed, he's not showing up in online records
or
2) A walter mitty
or
3) We've found the correct guy, but his motives have been misidentified. It seems likely that he was returning in some act of commoration, but of who? A Norwegian pilot he was unlikely ever to have met, at a site that had no significance? Unlikely. A family member? More likely. But which family member - there's no matching crash. I think its more likely that somewhere along the line he mixed up the crash at Selkirk, with the Ju-88 crash at Sumburgh, Shetland, and that he thought thats where Obfw F.Raasch died.
He wouldn't have been able to visit the family, as it appears they probably came from EAST Germany.
I think he had a need to find a distant relative, got the site wrong, and kept his real reasons for visiting to himself. A reason that his relatives have no sympathy for and simply want to forget
Last edited by Milo Minderbinder; 29th Jun 2012 at 13:30.
Thread Starter
We've found the correct guy, but his motives have been misidentified
It is a very small town of about 8000 pop. The guy had been visiting for several years and was known by sight. He went for dinner to a local hotel that evening, I am sure someone must have said something to him. He left the next day without showing up for the photos (which I incidentaly had offered to do for free)
My personal thoughts then were that he had taken off from Biggin into a fight, panicked and turned tail north, flying till his fuel ran out. I smelled a rat then and the stink continues.
The Shetland thing takes on more significance in light of your theory :-
I think its more likely that somewhere along the line he mixed up the crash at Selkirk, with the Ju-88 crash at Sumburgh, Shetland, and that he thought thats where Obfw F.Raasch died.
He wouldn't have been able to visit the family, as it appears they probably came from EAST Germany.
I think he had a need to find a distant relative, got the site wrong, and kept his real reasons for visiting to himself. A reason that his relatives have no sympathy for and simply want to forget
He wouldn't have been able to visit the family, as it appears they probably came from EAST Germany.
I think he had a need to find a distant relative, got the site wrong, and kept his real reasons for visiting to himself. A reason that his relatives have no sympathy for and simply want to forget
Is the Rev Tim frightened of old stories being resurrected being a man of the cloth and all ??
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The Ju-88 crashed 24/03/1943
The B-24 crashed 03/06/44 so they could not have met in the camp
And its clear he couldn't have been officially flying that Hurricane - he was a Bombardier. And if he had pinched it, I'm sure he wouldn't have got into intelligence post war.
The B-24 crashed 03/06/44 so they could not have met in the camp
And its clear he couldn't have been officially flying that Hurricane - he was a Bombardier. And if he had pinched it, I'm sure he wouldn't have got into intelligence post war.
Thread Starter
It seems pretty clear that Harold A and the Rev Tim are connected. The latter knows of my quest, including locations etc. I doubt he would be making it up.
If we wipe the whole slate clean and start the search from scratch, how would you persue it Milo. Sometimes blind alleys end up turning into supposed fact in a search like this !
If we wipe the whole slate clean and start the search from scratch, how would you persue it Milo. Sometimes blind alleys end up turning into supposed fact in a search like this !
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three ways of attacking it
1) if its possible, access the service records of anyone with that name in the RAF, RCAF and USAAF. Is that possible?
2) identify other relatives and contact them
3) study the genealogical histories that are available online for the Raasch family in USA and Canada. However that costs money!
What would be nice is if a photo of Lt Col Raasch could be found on the web - then it may be possible to check with the locals whether its the right man, though after all these years....
Tim is clearly related to AN Harold A, and knows of your interest because of what you've told him. But we don't know if he is "the" Harold A, though if that man did indeed live in California it looks likely - as long as we accept he lied about being Canadian
1) if its possible, access the service records of anyone with that name in the RAF, RCAF and USAAF. Is that possible?
2) identify other relatives and contact them
3) study the genealogical histories that are available online for the Raasch family in USA and Canada. However that costs money!
What would be nice is if a photo of Lt Col Raasch could be found on the web - then it may be possible to check with the locals whether its the right man, though after all these years....
Tim is clearly related to AN Harold A, and knows of your interest because of what you've told him. But we don't know if he is "the" Harold A, though if that man did indeed live in California it looks likely - as long as we accept he lied about being Canadian
Last edited by Milo Minderbinder; 29th Jun 2012 at 14:13.
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El Grifo,
I first saw your exiting and very interesting thread yesterday - great research I must say!
I have a couple of inputs to the story.
Regarding the Norwegian pilot: RAF had 2 squadrons, 331 and 332 (see WIKI for further) manned only with Norwegian pilots - except for the COs. These 2 squadrons were equipped with Spitfires and were most of the time in WW2 stationed in northern Scotland, so the unlucky Spitfire with a Norwegian pilot mentioned in the reports could be an aircraft from one of these squadrons.
But what this has to do with mr. Raasch - well?
Are you sure that the spelling of the name is correct - could it not be mr. Harry A. Raasch or something else? The exact spelling is vital of course. I suppose that "your" mr. Raasch was drafted when he was 18 years old in 1942, sent to Italy and he became a POW in the summer of 1944. So he did not have any time for establishing relations to other countries (incl. Scotland), I suppose.
In any case he did not fly the Spitfire in the RAF.
But are you sure that there is not another mr. Raasch (or whatever the spelling is) who really flew the Spitfire?
Milo,
As far as I know all Norwegian pilots were trained in Canada - and he couldn't have joined up earlier in Canada - no time!
As already mentioned in an earlier post, his actions after the crash landing were weird - I was a fighter pilot in the 60'ties and we were taught to phone Base Operation ASAP after a bailout or crash landing before doing anything else in order to arrange further actions - the beer could wait to later!
Looking forward to more posts - good luck!
brgds
grebllaw
Denmark
P.S.: Here is a link to a list - although not official - covering all personel from Norway who went through the initial training in Canada. Raasch not the list.
http://www.profero.no/littlenorway/P..._1940-1945.pdf
I first saw your exiting and very interesting thread yesterday - great research I must say!
I have a couple of inputs to the story.
Regarding the Norwegian pilot: RAF had 2 squadrons, 331 and 332 (see WIKI for further) manned only with Norwegian pilots - except for the COs. These 2 squadrons were equipped with Spitfires and were most of the time in WW2 stationed in northern Scotland, so the unlucky Spitfire with a Norwegian pilot mentioned in the reports could be an aircraft from one of these squadrons.
But what this has to do with mr. Raasch - well?
Are you sure that the spelling of the name is correct - could it not be mr. Harry A. Raasch or something else? The exact spelling is vital of course. I suppose that "your" mr. Raasch was drafted when he was 18 years old in 1942, sent to Italy and he became a POW in the summer of 1944. So he did not have any time for establishing relations to other countries (incl. Scotland), I suppose.
In any case he did not fly the Spitfire in the RAF.
But are you sure that there is not another mr. Raasch (or whatever the spelling is) who really flew the Spitfire?
Milo,
As far as I know all Norwegian pilots were trained in Canada - and he couldn't have joined up earlier in Canada - no time!
As already mentioned in an earlier post, his actions after the crash landing were weird - I was a fighter pilot in the 60'ties and we were taught to phone Base Operation ASAP after a bailout or crash landing before doing anything else in order to arrange further actions - the beer could wait to later!
Looking forward to more posts - good luck!
brgds
grebllaw
Denmark
P.S.: Here is a link to a list - although not official - covering all personel from Norway who went through the initial training in Canada. Raasch not the list.
http://www.profero.no/littlenorway/P..._1940-1945.pdf
Last edited by grebllaw123d; 29th Jun 2012 at 14:45.
Thread Starter
100% certain of the name It came directly from a written record at the B+B establishment.
Bear in mind the eyewitness to the crash at the specific location refers to a Hurricaine not a Spitfire, Raasch told me he was flying a Spitfire, other than that the circumstances are very similar.
Im in no way sure of anything really except that in the original posting describing the visit to my shop in Selkirk.
As I say, the whole story smelled a bit from day one. it has just become more mysterious with time !
Thanks for your input, any research would be gratefully received.
You say Raasch the canadian could not possibly met a Norwegian trainee pilot during the training period. Help me with that, my head is spinning with dates !
Bear in mind the eyewitness to the crash at the specific location refers to a Hurricaine not a Spitfire, Raasch told me he was flying a Spitfire, other than that the circumstances are very similar.
Im in no way sure of anything really except that in the original posting describing the visit to my shop in Selkirk.
As I say, the whole story smelled a bit from day one. it has just become more mysterious with time !
Thanks for your input, any research would be gratefully received.
You say Raasch the canadian could not possibly met a Norwegian trainee pilot during the training period. Help me with that, my head is spinning with dates !
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study the genealogical histories that are available online for the Raasch family in USA and Canada. However that costs money!
Thread Starter
This is the closest we have come so far. Different site but the family linkage is there. I am unable to subscribe as it is US only.
Maybe you can feed some data into Ancestry.com
Craig Raasch Address, Phone, Email & Records | PeopleFinders
Maybe you can feed some data into Ancestry.com
Craig Raasch Address, Phone, Email & Records | PeopleFinders
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More inputs...
El Grifo,
My head is spinning too!
To comment your answer:
- You are 100% certain regarding the name, but as I suppose that it was written by hand - mistakes could have been made be the B+B. Incorrect info could also have been given?
- The untrained eye cannot se any difference between a Hurricane and a Spitfire - and the Norwegians flew Spifires!
- I also think that the story smells a bit - f.ex. how could he fly all the way from Biggin Hill along the coastline without seeing any landmark which could lead him to one of the many, many wartime airfields - what was his mission anyway?
- You talk about "Raasch the Canadian" - if the man who came to your shop in fact was Canadian, then "your" mr. Harold A. Raasch" is NOT the correct mr. Raasch, as he was born in the USA! However if mr. Raasch was Canadian he might have met a Norwegian cadet - if he was an American he would have had to go to Toronto, where the Norwegians trained - but unlikely! COMPLICATED! YES
The search goes on!
Brgds
P.S.: Milo wrote: "It seems likely that he was returning in some act of commoration, but of who?". If so, the whole story does not have anything to do with the Norwegian pilot - commoration of a broken nose..........! If the Norwegian pilot had died later, a trip to a Norwegian graveyard would have been the appropriate action.
My head is spinning too!
To comment your answer:
- You are 100% certain regarding the name, but as I suppose that it was written by hand - mistakes could have been made be the B+B. Incorrect info could also have been given?
- The untrained eye cannot se any difference between a Hurricane and a Spitfire - and the Norwegians flew Spifires!
- I also think that the story smells a bit - f.ex. how could he fly all the way from Biggin Hill along the coastline without seeing any landmark which could lead him to one of the many, many wartime airfields - what was his mission anyway?
- You talk about "Raasch the Canadian" - if the man who came to your shop in fact was Canadian, then "your" mr. Harold A. Raasch" is NOT the correct mr. Raasch, as he was born in the USA! However if mr. Raasch was Canadian he might have met a Norwegian cadet - if he was an American he would have had to go to Toronto, where the Norwegians trained - but unlikely! COMPLICATED! YES
The search goes on!
Brgds
P.S.: Milo wrote: "It seems likely that he was returning in some act of commoration, but of who?". If so, the whole story does not have anything to do with the Norwegian pilot - commoration of a broken nose..........! If the Norwegian pilot had died later, a trip to a Norwegian graveyard would have been the appropriate action.
Last edited by grebllaw123d; 29th Jun 2012 at 15:45.
Thread Starter
Yep grebllaw, you have indeed entered at the deep end.
So many questions and so few answers.
The main questions are, who was the guy who came to see me all these years ago with his lucid and concise tale of the crash landing of his Spitfire at Headshaw bog and the circumstances of his journey to RAF Turnhouse to report.
Who was he where did he come from where was he going and why did he end up out of fuel in the Scottish Borders.
Have a dig anywhere you like. A new mind on the case often helps !
Cheers
El G.
Bear in mind, he told me he was Canadian, The B+B lady believed him to be American. He stayed there many times, I think we can be sure of the correct name .
So many questions and so few answers.
The main questions are, who was the guy who came to see me all these years ago with his lucid and concise tale of the crash landing of his Spitfire at Headshaw bog and the circumstances of his journey to RAF Turnhouse to report.
Who was he where did he come from where was he going and why did he end up out of fuel in the Scottish Borders.
Have a dig anywhere you like. A new mind on the case often helps !
Cheers
El G.
Bear in mind, he told me he was Canadian, The B+B lady believed him to be American. He stayed there many times, I think we can be sure of the correct name .
Last edited by El Grifo; 29th Jun 2012 at 16:02.
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grebllaw is correct when he says the Norwegian squadrons flew Spitfires not Hurricanes, but that didn't stop them crashing or losing a small number of Hurricanes.
See http://www.rafandluftwaffe.info/lists/raf1d.htm for details - but none match this crash
See http://www.rafandluftwaffe.info/lists/raf1d.htm for details - but none match this crash
Last edited by Milo Minderbinder; 29th Jun 2012 at 19:41.
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Milo,
You are absolutely right!
I was only referring to the ALL Norwegian squadrons, 331 and 332, of which 331 actually in the first 4 months of its existence was equipped with Hurricanes. (acc. WIKI). Quite a number of Nordic pilots (incl. Norwegians) served in the other RAF squadrons.
But still, as I mentioned earlier in connection with the story about the forced landing made by a Norwegian pilot, the Hurricane vs Spitfire discussion is not all that important due to the similarity between the 2 types IMO.
You are absolutely right!
I was only referring to the ALL Norwegian squadrons, 331 and 332, of which 331 actually in the first 4 months of its existence was equipped with Hurricanes. (acc. WIKI). Quite a number of Nordic pilots (incl. Norwegians) served in the other RAF squadrons.
But still, as I mentioned earlier in connection with the story about the forced landing made by a Norwegian pilot, the Hurricane vs Spitfire discussion is not all that important due to the similarity between the 2 types IMO.
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And the fact is the list on that site doesn't have a matching incident for Hurricane or Spitfire. So either it didn't happen (in the sense that the pilot wasn't Norwegian) or the incident was so trivial that no record was made.
But surely the fact that the aircraft had to be dissembled and trucked away means it wasn't trivial?
The crash happened. But theres no record of a Norwegian piloting it.
But surely the fact that the aircraft had to be dissembled and trucked away means it wasn't trivial?
The crash happened. But theres no record of a Norwegian piloting it.