Spitfire crash landing in Scotland WW11
Thread Starter
Well knock me down with a feather !!
Exactly WTF is that all about
This is some sort of bastardised version of an article that appear in the local Selkirk newspaper back in January
El G.
Not so much Lowalnd Scots as Highland Pakistani. How Odd !!
Exactly WTF is that all about
This is some sort of bastardised version of an article that appear in the local Selkirk newspaper back in January
El G.
Not so much Lowalnd Scots as Highland Pakistani. How Odd !!
Last edited by El Grifo; 9th Jul 2012 at 16:24.
Thread Starter
Here is another story from the same site. It is entitled Mystery Bird Photographers Richard Thomas.
Clearly translated by the same English Professor
Weirdest thing I have seen for a whiley
Clearly translated by the same English Professor
I am repeating this opening bit from yesterday’s blog entrance given some of we competence be new to what we wish will be an annual underline on this blog: accommodate a Mystery Bird photographers.
One month ago, we invited “our” Mystery Bird photographers to tell us a small about themselves. In that request, we suggested that if they weren’t certain what competence seductiveness us, they competence wish to respond to any or all of a following questions;
One month ago, we invited “our” Mystery Bird photographers to tell us a small about themselves. In that request, we suggested that if they weren’t certain what competence seductiveness us, they competence wish to respond to any or all of a following questions;
Thread Starter
Milo, I was going over the thread again and spotted this in your summary :-
Bear this in mnid however from my initial post :-
Too much detail methinks for a "Scots bog" type error, you think ?
My view is that it did happen, but somewhere else and the site has been misidentified by the pilot. After 40 years, to a American one bit of Scots bog will look much like any other.
He was given a lift to Selkirk where he had a beer in the County Hotel after which he made his way to the railway station. He boarded a train to Edinburgh where he eventually reported at RAF Turnhouse.
Last edited by El Grifo; 9th Jul 2012 at 17:11.
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well. there are three alternatives
1) "Your" Raasch was the man incorrectly identified as "Norwegian", and the aircraft identity was mistaken
2) He was an out-and-out liar
3) There were two crashes and we've found no record of the second. In the absence of any local memory of a second, then the site has to be elsewhere
Those are the only options. (1) I don't believe unless there was deliberate deception by the police to hide his USA origin. But if he was Canadian that wouldn't matter anyway (2) I simply am not prepared to believe. I cannot believe that a man would make repeated overseas journeys to live out fantasies.
We've pretty much eliminated anyone named Raasch being in the Eagle Squadrons, or the UK based USAAF Spitfire / Hurricane fighter squadrons, and they were the only ones with a Biggin connection then it seems likely that if Raasch was involved in an incident, he wasn't American. Of course he could have been in a PR Spitfire squadron, but they were not based at Biggin, and nor were the ground attack Spits and Hurribombers used later in North Africa.
Of course - he could have signed up under an assumed name - but later his real name should show up from when the Eagle Squadrons were transferred. It doesn't.
The only option if the story is true is that he was Canadian. And if that part of his story is true, then there is no reason to assume a lie in the rest of it.
A phone directory search of people named Raasch in Canada throws up around 20 entries, spread around a bit with a concentration in British Columbia, so there are Canadian Raasches. Some of those are probably relatives. However, whether a round-robin phoning of them asking for information is advisable, is for someone else to decide.
Th truth is likely to lie with the man recorded on that veterans "departures" list.
There is of course one off-the-wall possibility, that needs consideration.
As I've said before, Raasch is originally a german surname and seems to be associated with Lutheran traditions, which don't sit well against Nazi rhetoric.
Just suppose that it wasn't a Norwegian in a Hurricane or Spit that landed that day, but a German defecting in a german aircraft? That would explain the speed at which the aircraft was carried away, the strange nature of his disappearance from the scene (I'll bet the police would have given him a lift to "the station"...). Would also explain why he was trying to make for Biggin Hill: a major group headquarters.
If the chap then proceeded to work with the RAF, maybe on clandestine work I can see him being relocated post war to Canada, later moving to California
Absolute total conjecture, but something to consider
1) "Your" Raasch was the man incorrectly identified as "Norwegian", and the aircraft identity was mistaken
2) He was an out-and-out liar
3) There were two crashes and we've found no record of the second. In the absence of any local memory of a second, then the site has to be elsewhere
Those are the only options. (1) I don't believe unless there was deliberate deception by the police to hide his USA origin. But if he was Canadian that wouldn't matter anyway (2) I simply am not prepared to believe. I cannot believe that a man would make repeated overseas journeys to live out fantasies.
We've pretty much eliminated anyone named Raasch being in the Eagle Squadrons, or the UK based USAAF Spitfire / Hurricane fighter squadrons, and they were the only ones with a Biggin connection then it seems likely that if Raasch was involved in an incident, he wasn't American. Of course he could have been in a PR Spitfire squadron, but they were not based at Biggin, and nor were the ground attack Spits and Hurribombers used later in North Africa.
Of course - he could have signed up under an assumed name - but later his real name should show up from when the Eagle Squadrons were transferred. It doesn't.
The only option if the story is true is that he was Canadian. And if that part of his story is true, then there is no reason to assume a lie in the rest of it.
A phone directory search of people named Raasch in Canada throws up around 20 entries, spread around a bit with a concentration in British Columbia, so there are Canadian Raasches. Some of those are probably relatives. However, whether a round-robin phoning of them asking for information is advisable, is for someone else to decide.
Th truth is likely to lie with the man recorded on that veterans "departures" list.
There is of course one off-the-wall possibility, that needs consideration.
As I've said before, Raasch is originally a german surname and seems to be associated with Lutheran traditions, which don't sit well against Nazi rhetoric.
Just suppose that it wasn't a Norwegian in a Hurricane or Spit that landed that day, but a German defecting in a german aircraft? That would explain the speed at which the aircraft was carried away, the strange nature of his disappearance from the scene (I'll bet the police would have given him a lift to "the station"...). Would also explain why he was trying to make for Biggin Hill: a major group headquarters.
If the chap then proceeded to work with the RAF, maybe on clandestine work I can see him being relocated post war to Canada, later moving to California
Absolute total conjecture, but something to consider
Last edited by Milo Minderbinder; 9th Jul 2012 at 18:40.
Thread Starter
I for one would go for the first option, but would not in any way, rule out something akin to you to your last option.
To many odd elements to this tale !
Nothing yet from Departures.
Point me to the Canadian telephone directory and I will be all over it like a, well, Raasch
To many odd elements to this tale !
Nothing yet from Departures.
Point me to the Canadian telephone directory and I will be all over it like a, well, Raasch
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A more practical explanation.
Perhaps he was simply an American Serviceman who ended up playing "hide the sausage" with a Coal Miner's Daughter in the Area during the war and then went home.
Many years later he comes back in search of the girl, and any offspring that may have been produced.
In fear of turning a Borders community upside down with tales of Granny having put it about in her younger days, he needs a cover story.
No Pliot, no crash, just one of those things that happen in wartime. If "Timothy the God Botherer" knows the reason for the visits, he'll not want a step brother turning up from over the sea.
Many years later he comes back in search of the girl, and any offspring that may have been produced.
In fear of turning a Borders community upside down with tales of Granny having put it about in her younger days, he needs a cover story.
No Pliot, no crash, just one of those things that happen in wartime. If "Timothy the God Botherer" knows the reason for the visits, he'll not want a step brother turning up from over the sea.
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airpolice
the problem with that theory is that its the wrong man. The Rassch you are referring to never seems to have served in the UK - or certainly not during the war, and theres no evidence that he did post war.
Other parts of the story don't fit: date of death. the canadian connection
we can make up all kinds of scurrilous theories to explain why the families attitude - but the simple fact is that its the wrong man!!!
making comments like you just have simply aggravates the problem
the problem with that theory is that its the wrong man. The Rassch you are referring to never seems to have served in the UK - or certainly not during the war, and theres no evidence that he did post war.
Other parts of the story don't fit: date of death. the canadian connection
we can make up all kinds of scurrilous theories to explain why the families attitude - but the simple fact is that its the wrong man!!!
making comments like you just have simply aggravates the problem
Last edited by Milo Minderbinder; 9th Jul 2012 at 19:40.
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true, but I think fareastdriver had already written the screenplay for that theory very early on in the thread
posts 63, 90, 93 tell the story
posts 63, 90, 93 tell the story
Last edited by Milo Minderbinder; 9th Jul 2012 at 20:12.
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OK everyone, like one or two others I'm starting to get a little uneasy about the way this thread is developing
What are we trying to do?
Investigate the possibility of an undocumented forced landing (or maybe clarify a documented one)
Or trash the memory of a man who is quite probably totally unrelated to the whole event? A man who fought in the war, was held as a POW, and exited the services with the rank of Lt.Col. All in all, a man to be respected, and yet here we are making scurrilous totally unsubstantiated comments.
Time to call a day on that I think, especially as he is almost certainly the wrong man.
Now, I've no problem if the search continues in an attempt to accurately identify the aircraft concerned. Its almost certain that that cannot be achieved without correctly identifying the pilot. The two go hand in hand. But that can be done without reckless speculation about motive. So can I just ask everyone to take a step back and think a bit about how you would like this thread being written about someone in your family?
OK, what next?
lLets all just stand back and wait and see what the results of the current outstanding enquiries are. Until them, lets all wait and see. Unless anyone has any genuine new information, or possible new lines of enquiry
What are we trying to do?
Investigate the possibility of an undocumented forced landing (or maybe clarify a documented one)
Or trash the memory of a man who is quite probably totally unrelated to the whole event? A man who fought in the war, was held as a POW, and exited the services with the rank of Lt.Col. All in all, a man to be respected, and yet here we are making scurrilous totally unsubstantiated comments.
Time to call a day on that I think, especially as he is almost certainly the wrong man.
Now, I've no problem if the search continues in an attempt to accurately identify the aircraft concerned. Its almost certain that that cannot be achieved without correctly identifying the pilot. The two go hand in hand. But that can be done without reckless speculation about motive. So can I just ask everyone to take a step back and think a bit about how you would like this thread being written about someone in your family?
OK, what next?
lLets all just stand back and wait and see what the results of the current outstanding enquiries are. Until them, lets all wait and see. Unless anyone has any genuine new information, or possible new lines of enquiry
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Actually, the direction this thread has taken as it advanced has been quite predictable.
It started out as a fairly simple task, find a crash site, aircraft and a pilot. For a while it seemed quite straightforward and then some spanners were thrown in the works. From there some "parallel" lines of investigation began. As each of those were closed down then people started to think "creatively". Some creative thinking comes up with viable and sensible lines of investigation. Others begin to fly close to the edge of fantasy but are potential explanations for a lack of data. As time goes on and the data becomes less easy to find people still want satisfaction. It's then that the "creative thinking" begins to cross the line as some has done here.
I still think it's perfectly acceptable to try to determine who the man El Grifo met all those years ago is and I think there are a still couple of avenues that are being explored that might bear fruit. The other stuff can stop... A lack of a data point or two does not some weird and convoluted conspiracy or wild affair make. To those that don't understand basing an investigation entirely upon proven data points I'd say that while your creative thinking makes interesting reading it really doesn't help. You can infer the rest from that I'm sure.
It has been my experience that, should you not be able to finalize an investigation via the internet all is not lost. A smidgeon of patience and good notes will often lead to a successful conclusion in the future when people have published more on the internet.
Maybe, for now, this investigation has reached one of those points...
It started out as a fairly simple task, find a crash site, aircraft and a pilot. For a while it seemed quite straightforward and then some spanners were thrown in the works. From there some "parallel" lines of investigation began. As each of those were closed down then people started to think "creatively". Some creative thinking comes up with viable and sensible lines of investigation. Others begin to fly close to the edge of fantasy but are potential explanations for a lack of data. As time goes on and the data becomes less easy to find people still want satisfaction. It's then that the "creative thinking" begins to cross the line as some has done here.
I still think it's perfectly acceptable to try to determine who the man El Grifo met all those years ago is and I think there are a still couple of avenues that are being explored that might bear fruit. The other stuff can stop... A lack of a data point or two does not some weird and convoluted conspiracy or wild affair make. To those that don't understand basing an investigation entirely upon proven data points I'd say that while your creative thinking makes interesting reading it really doesn't help. You can infer the rest from that I'm sure.
It has been my experience that, should you not be able to finalize an investigation via the internet all is not lost. A smidgeon of patience and good notes will often lead to a successful conclusion in the future when people have published more on the internet.
Maybe, for now, this investigation has reached one of those points...
Thread Starter
I pretty much echo the sentiments of AA and Milo here !
It is pretty understandable in this strange little case, that people would wish to explore the possibility of more "exotic" solutions.
The thread has run for quite a time and there are often more questions and answers.
I think there is no harm in sending pm's laying out wilder ideas, almost anything is possible here.
We have had some excellent research carried out by a bunch of good people.
There are lots of others out there with possible valuable contributions perhaps just holding off for the time being.
Take grebllaw as an example. he popped up fairly recently with valuable research. There are probably a few more like him out there.
We do not want to scare them off !
I am still waiting from a reply from the "Departures" site and I believe grebllaw is chasing a lead also.
Let's see if they take us anywhere.
El G.
It is pretty understandable in this strange little case, that people would wish to explore the possibility of more "exotic" solutions.
The thread has run for quite a time and there are often more questions and answers.
I think there is no harm in sending pm's laying out wilder ideas, almost anything is possible here.
We have had some excellent research carried out by a bunch of good people.
There are lots of others out there with possible valuable contributions perhaps just holding off for the time being.
Take grebllaw as an example. he popped up fairly recently with valuable research. There are probably a few more like him out there.
We do not want to scare them off !
I am still waiting from a reply from the "Departures" site and I believe grebllaw is chasing a lead also.
Let's see if they take us anywhere.
El G.