Iran Threatens to Close Strait of Hormuz
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Worse!
Anyway, this thread is beginning to sound like a Patrick Robinson novel!
Anyway, this thread is beginning to sound like a Patrick Robinson novel!
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Sub Surface Vehicle Detection and The Gulf
@ Mike7777777
A very basic introduction to sub surface vehicle detection & PGW/ Strait of Hormuz. Apologies for brevity of what I have written. The notes may not answer your questions but should point you in the correct direction for further information.
ASW in the Strait of Hormuz & Gulf of Oman
Detection Methods Could Include
1/ Gravimetric
2/ Active Acoustic
3/ Passive Acoustic
4/ Magnetic
5/ Surface water displacement (difficult to use as a tool - LIDAR)
6/ Infrared detection
7/ Cavitation detection - usually not possible if vessel moving at under 6 knots (ish)
8/ Chemical luminescence
Variables Affecting Detection
1/ Geologic stratigraphy (this has an effect on the reflection and refraction of acoustic waves)
2/ Salinity & localised salinity variations caused by fresh water surcharges and currents. Also effected by seasons, winds and evaporation rates
3/ Thermoclines & layers
4/ Magnetic variations
5/ Roughness of sea bed
6/ Closeness of coast lines and islands
7/ Tidal flows & river flows
8/ Horizontal and vertical turbulence caused by sea bed and adjacent land masses
9/ Water surface and bottom flow rates
10/ The paths taken by both active & passive sounds. These components comprise direct, reflective, surface paths and refractive paths.
Notes
Are you aware that there is research on using the cavitation of a ships propeller/s as an active, non directional source?
Strait of Hormuz has an average depth of 35 metres and a maximum depth of approximately 60 metres (25m to 40m range is the normal). The Gulf of Oman has a maximum depth of over 140 metres. The shallow depth of the Strait of Hormuz makes it easier to detect submarines.
The Strait of Hormuz is only about 40 miles wide, and is 34 miles wide at its narrowest point. The Strait consists of 2 mile wide channels for inbound and outbound tanker traffic, as well as a 2 mile wide buffer zone (6 mile width in total).
Thermohaline characteristics (density of water caused by temperature and salinity) and distribution also exhibit notable changes at periods shorter than a month
In the Strait of Hormuz the hydrological structure consists in a homogeneous mixed layer in the upper 30 meters overlying a stratified water column with the warm and salty core lying in the deepest part of the Strait.
The approaches to the Strait of Hormuz have reasonably homogenous temperature and salinity levels. This makes it easier to detect submarines in this area.
Much work has been carried out in the Strait of Hormuz, the PGW (Persian Gulf water) – this includes the Gulf of Oman) and Indian Ocean over a number of years in an attempt to measure these variables.
A very basic introduction to sub surface vehicle detection & PGW/ Strait of Hormuz. Apologies for brevity of what I have written. The notes may not answer your questions but should point you in the correct direction for further information.
ASW in the Strait of Hormuz & Gulf of Oman
Detection Methods Could Include
1/ Gravimetric
2/ Active Acoustic
3/ Passive Acoustic
4/ Magnetic
5/ Surface water displacement (difficult to use as a tool - LIDAR)
6/ Infrared detection
7/ Cavitation detection - usually not possible if vessel moving at under 6 knots (ish)
8/ Chemical luminescence
Variables Affecting Detection
1/ Geologic stratigraphy (this has an effect on the reflection and refraction of acoustic waves)
2/ Salinity & localised salinity variations caused by fresh water surcharges and currents. Also effected by seasons, winds and evaporation rates
3/ Thermoclines & layers
4/ Magnetic variations
5/ Roughness of sea bed
6/ Closeness of coast lines and islands
7/ Tidal flows & river flows
8/ Horizontal and vertical turbulence caused by sea bed and adjacent land masses
9/ Water surface and bottom flow rates
10/ The paths taken by both active & passive sounds. These components comprise direct, reflective, surface paths and refractive paths.
Notes
Are you aware that there is research on using the cavitation of a ships propeller/s as an active, non directional source?
Strait of Hormuz has an average depth of 35 metres and a maximum depth of approximately 60 metres (25m to 40m range is the normal). The Gulf of Oman has a maximum depth of over 140 metres. The shallow depth of the Strait of Hormuz makes it easier to detect submarines.
The Strait of Hormuz is only about 40 miles wide, and is 34 miles wide at its narrowest point. The Strait consists of 2 mile wide channels for inbound and outbound tanker traffic, as well as a 2 mile wide buffer zone (6 mile width in total).
Thermohaline characteristics (density of water caused by temperature and salinity) and distribution also exhibit notable changes at periods shorter than a month
In the Strait of Hormuz the hydrological structure consists in a homogeneous mixed layer in the upper 30 meters overlying a stratified water column with the warm and salty core lying in the deepest part of the Strait.
The approaches to the Strait of Hormuz have reasonably homogenous temperature and salinity levels. This makes it easier to detect submarines in this area.
Much work has been carried out in the Strait of Hormuz, the PGW (Persian Gulf water) – this includes the Gulf of Oman) and Indian Ocean over a number of years in an attempt to measure these variables.
Last edited by hval; 5th Jan 2012 at 09:45. Reason: To add Lidar
Mike, there are significant OPSEC considerations for the discussion of acoustic and non-acoustic detection of SSKs/SSCs.
Patrick Robinson:
and then
with possibly
After that, it all gets a bit silly. The problem being (like many books of this genre) the hero gets more and more powerful, thus the challenges more and more stupid!
Patrick Robinson:
and then
with possibly
After that, it all gets a bit silly. The problem being (like many books of this genre) the hero gets more and more powerful, thus the challenges more and more stupid!
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Hi Hval,
nice post and nice to see that Infra red is on that list and I guess the shallower depths will help with the detection. . The hiding in shallower waters is fraught with risks especially if you loose the ability to protect coastal airspace with your surface to air.
Folks tend to forget just how shallow the sea can be and I am talking English Channel
What are your thoughts on Iran and its ability to lay mines?
Would this be an option as I believe or is it an easily detectable and removable threat?
I dread to think of how many minesweepers we have scrapped in the last two decades but no matter how many, it was too many (In my opinion)
Thanks to one subscriber I am sending my wife off to our local library to see if they stock any of the works by Patrick Robinson.
When questions are asked on this forum it is so pleasing to see the helpful replies that folks readily post. All I am waiting for is a manual on how to build a nuclear weapon
Great forum with lots of really nice folk.
Question
The EU plans on banning the importing of oil from Iran. What would the reaction be if Iran were to lower the price of its oil?
Would OPEC try to block this?
Would the EU stand firm and still boycott the cheaper oil?
Iran has already declared that the boycott by the EU would not have any financial impact on their economy... Do we believe that?
Nice thread
John
nice post and nice to see that Infra red is on that list and I guess the shallower depths will help with the detection. . The hiding in shallower waters is fraught with risks especially if you loose the ability to protect coastal airspace with your surface to air.
Folks tend to forget just how shallow the sea can be and I am talking English Channel
What are your thoughts on Iran and its ability to lay mines?
Would this be an option as I believe or is it an easily detectable and removable threat?
I dread to think of how many minesweepers we have scrapped in the last two decades but no matter how many, it was too many
(In my opinion)Thanks to one subscriber I am sending my wife off to our local library to see if they stock any of the works by Patrick Robinson.
When questions are asked on this forum it is so pleasing to see the helpful replies that folks readily post. All I am waiting for is a manual on how to build a nuclear weapon
Great forum with lots of really nice folk.
Question
The EU plans on banning the importing of oil from Iran. What would the reaction be if Iran were to lower the price of its oil?
Would OPEC try to block this?
Would the EU stand firm and still boycott the cheaper oil?
Iran has already declared that the boycott by the EU would not have any financial impact on their economy... Do we believe that?
Nice thread
John
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Cheers Orac,
Fascinating. Was aware of the Debye effect (didn't know the name of the effect, nor many details), but am not aware of how good the detection systems currently are. Have used gravimetric and magnetic anomaly detection systems in the past. They were a sod to install, setup, calibrate and to use. Apologies for the swearing.
Fascinating. Was aware of the Debye effect (didn't know the name of the effect, nor many details), but am not aware of how good the detection systems currently are. Have used gravimetric and magnetic anomaly detection systems in the past. They were a sod to install, setup, calibrate and to use. Apologies for the swearing.
Is it true the US Navy has a total of twelve Mine Sweepers? Four seem to be deployed to the Persian Gulf area based in Bahrain?
A very good discussion on the US Navy and Mines.....
http://www.navy.mil/n85/miw_primer-june2009.pdf
A very good discussion on the US Navy and Mines.....
http://www.navy.mil/n85/miw_primer-june2009.pdf
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@ Glojo,
Thank you for your kind post. I unfortunately don't have the time to do justice to the questions asked.
As for mines. It is relatively easy to deploy mines, as long as much of the onshore prep work is carried out correctly. Mine detection and clearance is a right pain, and can be extremely time consuming. It is extremely difficult to be certain that a mine is "not there".
Iran is said to possess mine types including nonmagnetic, free-floating, and remote controlled mines, along with pressure, acoustic, magnetic, and rocket-propelled rising mines.
Mine laying actually causes problems for all sides. The Iranians may find it tactically better to use thier small fast craft as weapons. Even better, and cheaper, is the use of land based missile systems.
@SASless
The United States has loads of mine hunters, sweepers and the CH53E Sea Dragon. Not sure how many are currently deployed in the Gulf. Will this number be increasing?
Iran does not currently possess any AIP submarines.
Thank you for your kind post. I unfortunately don't have the time to do justice to the questions asked.
As for mines. It is relatively easy to deploy mines, as long as much of the onshore prep work is carried out correctly. Mine detection and clearance is a right pain, and can be extremely time consuming. It is extremely difficult to be certain that a mine is "not there".
Iran is said to possess mine types including nonmagnetic, free-floating, and remote controlled mines, along with pressure, acoustic, magnetic, and rocket-propelled rising mines.
Mine laying actually causes problems for all sides. The Iranians may find it tactically better to use thier small fast craft as weapons. Even better, and cheaper, is the use of land based missile systems.
@SASless
The United States has loads of mine hunters, sweepers and the CH53E Sea Dragon. Not sure how many are currently deployed in the Gulf. Will this number be increasing?
Iran does not currently possess any AIP submarines.
Last edited by hval; 5th Jan 2012 at 11:45. Reason: Iran mine types & Iran AIP
SAS, thanks for the link on the 2009 Mine Warfare primer. Good treatment of the subject.
The "maturity" of what is carried on the MH-60S remains in question.
I am hopeful that the various technologies and kit depicted have continued to improve in their ability to do what was advertised for such capabilty over a decade ago, yet routinely failed to deliver during RDT & E.
Too far out of the loop to know now, hopefully the improvements in processing power have helped some of the trons overcome some of the limitations imposed by the laws of physics.
The "maturity" of what is carried on the MH-60S remains in question.
I am hopeful that the various technologies and kit depicted have continued to improve in their ability to do what was advertised for such capabilty over a decade ago, yet routinely failed to deliver during RDT & E.
Too far out of the loop to know now, hopefully the improvements in processing power have helped some of the trons overcome some of the limitations imposed by the laws of physics.
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Question: The EU plans on banning the importing of oil from Iran. What would the reaction be if Iran were to lower the price of its oil?
Mysteriously disappearing post
Can anyone explain what happened to the post I made on this thread at 5th Jan 2012, 00:18 as shown in the Google cache here? It has mysteriously disappeared so I'll try again:
............................................................ ...........................................................
We've been here before during the Iran/Iraq 'Tanker War':
Minesweepers
3. Mr. Hardy: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many minesweepers or mine countermeasure vessels are immediately available for service within British territorial waters.
Mr. Ian Stewart: There are currently 40 mine counter measures vessels, including minesweepers, in service with the Fleet of which 33 are operational or engaged in preparing for service or trials or training. Except for the four Hunt class MCMVs attached to the Armilla patrol, all these 33 vessels are available for NATO and national tasks within European waters in the normal way.
Persian Gulf
14. Mr. Patrick McNair-Wilson: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he is satisfied with the arrangements for co-operation between the Royal Navy and other Western navies in the Gulf.
Mr. Ian Stewart: Satisfactory arrangements have been developed, both locally and between capitals, for co-operation. Although the Royal Navy's Armilla patrol remains a wholly national operation, the United Kingdom is committed to close co-ordination with other Western navies also working to preserve international freedom of navigation on Gulf waters.
31. Mr. Andy Stewart: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will make a statement on the Royal Navy's mineclearing operations in the Gulf.
Mr. Ian Stewart: Four Royal Navy mine countermeasures vessels with afloat support arrived in the Gulf area in mid-September. They have carried out mine clearance operations at Fujairah, where they detected and destroyed five mines [laid by Iran], and off Dubai. They are currently involved in a further mine clearance operation off Qatar.
34. Ms. Primarolo: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will make a statement on the number of British units and ships currently serving in the Gulf area and their length of service there to date.
Mr. Ian Stewart: It is not our general policy to give details of the operational deployments of Royal Navy ships. However, I can say that there are currently three destroyers-frigates, four mine counter-measures vessels and their afloat support in the area of the Gulf. Royal Navy ships have been serving in the area as part of the Armilla patrol since 1980; the MCMVs supporting the patrol arrived in the area in mid-September. Although there are no British military units currently in the Gulf area, a number of loan service personnel are serving in various countries in the region.
Armilla Patrol
47. Mr. Harry Greenway: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many merchant ships the Royal Navy's Armilla patrol has accompanied through the Straits of Hormuz since the start of the current year.
Mr. Ian Stewart: Up to the beginning of this month,the Armilla patrol has accompanied approximately 300 British merchant ships through the Straits of Hormuz this year.
In 1991, our MCMVs spearheaded the clearance of 1,300 mines laid by the Iraqis in the Northern Persian Gulf and in 2003 they cleared the approaches to Umm Qasr to permit the first delivery of humantarian aid to Iraq by RFA Sir Galahad. Today, the Royal Navy has only 15 mine countermeasures vessels (MCMVs) left, four of which are based in the Gulf as part of Op KIPION and rotated every 2-3 years.
Incidentally, it is the Strait of Hormuz, not the Straits.
............................................................ ...........................................................
We've been here before during the Iran/Iraq 'Tanker War':
Originally Posted by The New Statesman
Minesweepers
3. Mr. Hardy: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many minesweepers or mine countermeasure vessels are immediately available for service within British territorial waters.
Mr. Ian Stewart: There are currently 40 mine counter measures vessels, including minesweepers, in service with the Fleet of which 33 are operational or engaged in preparing for service or trials or training. Except for the four Hunt class MCMVs attached to the Armilla patrol, all these 33 vessels are available for NATO and national tasks within European waters in the normal way.
Persian Gulf
14. Mr. Patrick McNair-Wilson: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he is satisfied with the arrangements for co-operation between the Royal Navy and other Western navies in the Gulf.
Mr. Ian Stewart: Satisfactory arrangements have been developed, both locally and between capitals, for co-operation. Although the Royal Navy's Armilla patrol remains a wholly national operation, the United Kingdom is committed to close co-ordination with other Western navies also working to preserve international freedom of navigation on Gulf waters.
31. Mr. Andy Stewart: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will make a statement on the Royal Navy's mineclearing operations in the Gulf.
Mr. Ian Stewart: Four Royal Navy mine countermeasures vessels with afloat support arrived in the Gulf area in mid-September. They have carried out mine clearance operations at Fujairah, where they detected and destroyed five mines [laid by Iran], and off Dubai. They are currently involved in a further mine clearance operation off Qatar.
34. Ms. Primarolo: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will make a statement on the number of British units and ships currently serving in the Gulf area and their length of service there to date.
Mr. Ian Stewart: It is not our general policy to give details of the operational deployments of Royal Navy ships. However, I can say that there are currently three destroyers-frigates, four mine counter-measures vessels and their afloat support in the area of the Gulf. Royal Navy ships have been serving in the area as part of the Armilla patrol since 1980; the MCMVs supporting the patrol arrived in the area in mid-September. Although there are no British military units currently in the Gulf area, a number of loan service personnel are serving in various countries in the region.
Armilla Patrol
47. Mr. Harry Greenway: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many merchant ships the Royal Navy's Armilla patrol has accompanied through the Straits of Hormuz since the start of the current year.
Mr. Ian Stewart: Up to the beginning of this month,the Armilla patrol has accompanied approximately 300 British merchant ships through the Straits of Hormuz this year.
Incidentally, it is the Strait of Hormuz, not the Straits.
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Good morning Fodplod,
I have no idea if Mossad will allow this post but you are not alone in having contributions disappear. I can confirm that I at least read your previous post.
It is also fair to say I find every single post you write to ALWAYS be informative, constructive and very much appreciated.
By the way you are not alone in pointing out the singular as opposed to the plural regarding the straight
Apologies to all if I appear argumentative or abusive.
Regards
John
I have no idea if Mossad will allow this post but you are not alone in having contributions disappear. I can confirm that I at least read your previous post.
It is also fair to say I find every single post you write to ALWAYS be informative, constructive and very much appreciated.
By the way you are not alone in pointing out the singular as opposed to the plural regarding the straight
Apologies to all if I appear argumentative or abusive.
Regards
John
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So, we had 40 MCM vessels in 1987, and now we have 14 - have mines become less of a threat over the intervening years? Still, it's not all that gloomy, the USN appears to have...24 MCM vessels, so maybe mines really are no longer a viable weapon...
.
Glo - there's nothing argumentative or abusive in what you say. In fact given that your profle shows being in Torquay (God's waiting room) and must therfore be at least 70, you are entitled to be argumentative/grumpy/abusive (now that's verging on abusive
).
Oh Gawd, I've just seen that he's back from his electro-convulsive therapy session (FOD - it sems you are wrong; it is neither Straits nor Strait, but "Straight"...and probably narrow too)
Mister B
.Glo - there's nothing argumentative or abusive in what you say. In fact given that your profle shows being in Torquay (God's waiting room) and must therfore be at least 70, you are entitled to be argumentative/grumpy/abusive (now that's verging on abusive
).Oh Gawd, I've just seen that he's back from his electro-convulsive therapy session (FOD - it sems you are wrong; it is neither Straits nor Strait, but "Straight"...and probably narrow too)
Mister B
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Hi Mister B,
Compared to some of my parishioners I am a teenager but thank you for your kind words
SAM
I see you are dangling your hook into even more radioactive waters and I guess your latest input will stir the pot.
I hear that Iran has just stated they intend holding more Naval exercises in the Strait.
By the way the Mossad comment should NOT be taken too literally
The Stennis Battle Group in my opinion has moved out to a safer location but what about the US 5th Fleet, they have made it perfectly clear that they will NOT allow Iran to impose any type of blockade.
Question
If nuclear depth charges were to be used in an attempt to clear mines then:
Would that clear them all?
What about shock waves and the effects to other vessels in the vicinity?
What about all the dozens of oil rigs\wells how will any type of detonation effect them regarding shock waves?
What about electronic equipment on these rigs?
What about contamination and who will foot the bill?
What nation will drop these mini nuclear bombs and then take all the flak because you can bet the media will call them 'bombs' and there will be no praise for the leader that authorises it?
I have NO knowledge of this type of weapon but the very mention of the word 'nuclear' sets off alarm bells.
You used a nuclear weapon on me, so I will use one on you!
Is this the first time you have predicted or mentioned the idea that someone might be using a nuclear weapon in the Middle East?
Compared to some of my parishioners I am a teenager but thank you for your kind words SAM
I see you are dangling your hook into even more radioactive waters and I guess your latest input will stir the pot.
I hear that Iran has just stated they intend holding more Naval exercises in the Strait.
The Islamic Revolution Guards Corps plans to conduct its greatest naval wargames in the same region in the near future," Vahidi said Wednesday as he was speaking to reporters about the recent exercises of the Iranian Army's naval force in the Persian Gulf and the Sea of Oman which ended earlier this week.
The Stennis Battle Group in my opinion has moved out to a safer location but what about the US 5th Fleet, they have made it perfectly clear that they will NOT allow Iran to impose any type of blockade.
Question
If nuclear depth charges were to be used in an attempt to clear mines then:
Would that clear them all?
What about shock waves and the effects to other vessels in the vicinity?
What about all the dozens of oil rigs\wells how will any type of detonation effect them regarding shock waves?
What about electronic equipment on these rigs?
What about contamination and who will foot the bill?
What nation will drop these mini nuclear bombs and then take all the flak because you can bet the media will call them 'bombs' and there will be no praise for the leader that authorises it?
I have NO knowledge of this type of weapon but the very mention of the word 'nuclear' sets off alarm bells.
You used a nuclear weapon on me, so I will use one on you!
Is this the first time you have predicted or mentioned the idea that someone might be using a nuclear weapon in the Middle East?
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Thread Starter
It's funny, it's cynical.....and it's unnerving.....The MarketOracle: Please Daddy-Cool Bomb Iran, Just One More War… And I Need The Money
Shame on you, Mister B!
SAM,
They can't destroy the Middle East yet, I haven't finished filming the wreck if the Thistlegorm in the Gulf of Suez. Perhaps Egypt will get away with it.
You may well be damned now. If the Saudis don't come and get you for your remarks, my conservationist friends will be round to explain the evils of dyanite fishing.
Checking spelling... ...and... Submit reply.
SAM,
They can't destroy the Middle East yet, I haven't finished filming the wreck if the Thistlegorm in the Gulf of Suez. Perhaps Egypt will get away with it.
You may well be damned now. If the Saudis don't come and get you for your remarks, my conservationist friends will be round to explain the evils of dyanite fishing.
Checking spelling... ...and... Submit reply.
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SAM
For goodness sake take your medication at the prescribed intervals; it will help you identify the difference between a typo spolling mistake and a straightforward incorrect spelling.
If you were referring to me as an (ex) senior officer in the navy, you are way off the mark; I don't know what put that idea into your head. And, boy, if you think that was berating you, I can be far more direct without resorting to abuse.
For a start, there are numerous instances of incorrect apostrophe use in your post. Then, what on earth are "Armegoddon" and Christandom"? As for commenting on the actual content of the post, well drivel just doesn't do it justice.
I also find your anecdote about "fishing" with dynamite about as believable as one of your previous stories (on a diiferent thread) about big black men looking for man love and your deterrent of a large knife under the pillow.
If this upsets you at all, I really don't give a toss.
Mister B
For goodness sake take your medication at the prescribed intervals; it will help you identify the difference between a typo spolling mistake and a straightforward incorrect spelling.
If you were referring to me as an (ex) senior officer in the navy, you are way off the mark; I don't know what put that idea into your head. And, boy, if you think that was berating you, I can be far more direct without resorting to abuse.
For a start, there are numerous instances of incorrect apostrophe use in your post. Then, what on earth are "Armegoddon" and Christandom"? As for commenting on the actual content of the post, well drivel just doesn't do it justice.
I also find your anecdote about "fishing" with dynamite about as believable as one of your previous stories (on a diiferent thread) about big black men looking for man love and your deterrent of a large knife under the pillow.
If this upsets you at all, I really don't give a toss.
Mister B