Will Puma Survive?
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Jamesd,
If my (fading) memory serves me correctly, the Puma has some serious issues with high CG and deck motion, as well as a startling lack of tie down points and any serious structure to fit them.
The phrase 'properly marinised' can be interpreted in a number of ways - but for my money I'd want a tough, medium sized helicopter, with decent corrosion protection, avionics suited for maritime ops, and power folding blades. Low CG, plenty of tie down points, and good all weather capability.
Puma (in its current form) doesn't fit my bill - but I'm happy to be proved wrong. SK4 does a very decent job, but it's old and going.
Best Regards
Engines
If my (fading) memory serves me correctly, the Puma has some serious issues with high CG and deck motion, as well as a startling lack of tie down points and any serious structure to fit them.
The phrase 'properly marinised' can be interpreted in a number of ways - but for my money I'd want a tough, medium sized helicopter, with decent corrosion protection, avionics suited for maritime ops, and power folding blades. Low CG, plenty of tie down points, and good all weather capability.
Puma (in its current form) doesn't fit my bill - but I'm happy to be proved wrong. SK4 does a very decent job, but it's old and going.
Best Regards
Engines
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I wouldn't disagree with you - but the question was what whether the Chinook could do everything the Puma could.. Or not...... I was just pointing out it couldn't
I agree - rebuilding the SK fleet would have been better than Puma, but politics were at play.. No way Westland were going to be given a contract after the issues with Merlin and Apache (which weren't caused by them..) and of course the Romanians could undercut anything with their cheap labour. Truth is, for a proper rebuild the Pumas should have gone to South Africa, but thats another story
I agree - rebuilding the SK fleet would have been better than Puma, but politics were at play.. No way Westland were going to be given a contract after the issues with Merlin and Apache (which weren't caused by them..) and of course the Romanians could undercut anything with their cheap labour. Truth is, for a proper rebuild the Pumas should have gone to South Africa, but thats another story
the Puma has some serious issues with high CG and deck motion
llamaman,
and the Puma Force has built an enviable reputation for being soooo well run of recent years?
Suggest you check the construction of your roof before lobbing rocks.
and the Puma Force has built an enviable reputation for being soooo well run of recent years?
Suggest you check the construction of your roof before lobbing rocks.
The 'Puma Mk2' will be the only surviving version of the Puma in service with anybody with the six-wheel undercarriage.
Not convinced new wheels lowers the C of G either, but I await enlightenment from those in the know; including from those who like to land on soft ground.
The real question is not "will the Puma survive" but rather "should the Puma survive".
I would suggest Blackhawks would be a far better airframe for the mission than the Puma....less the one fact that the Puma is in the inventory and the purchase of the Blackhawk would cost money the UK Military just does not have.
After all...the Puma was "new" in the 1980's.
But then...with Blackhawks/Sea Hawks....the Lynx and Puma would both be indangered species. Perhaps Westland could do the same deal as they did with the Apache. Throw in some Kiowa's and you lot could be flying an all US Designed fleet less the Merlin.
I would suggest Blackhawks would be a far better airframe for the mission than the Puma....less the one fact that the Puma is in the inventory and the purchase of the Blackhawk would cost money the UK Military just does not have.
After all...the Puma was "new" in the 1980's.
But then...with Blackhawks/Sea Hawks....the Lynx and Puma would both be indangered species. Perhaps Westland could do the same deal as they did with the Apache. Throw in some Kiowa's and you lot could be flying an all US Designed fleet less the Merlin.
Mini.......
I think you will find there were several ex-CH47 'leaders' in-situ, or putting further strain on the Puma Force by proxy, around the time you are referring too. But if you feel you know better, then feel free to come across and explain!
I think you will find there were several ex-CH47 'leaders' in-situ, or putting further strain on the Puma Force by proxy, around the time you are referring too. But if you feel you know better, then feel free to come across and explain!
Minigun
Your timing is way out pal in fact as I heard it a recently departed senior officer at JHC suggested that the answer to all the Puma's 'problems' would be to post in a load of Chinook Flt Cdrs, untill it was pointed out just how many of their ilk were in charge at the time. Is changing history part of the Chinny CR work up? Hoist with ones own petard I think Mini.
That said, I have known some seriously top blokes on the Chinook fleet over the years, they arn't all bad, even you have some good points
. How's the job hunting going?
That said, I have known some seriously top blokes on the Chinook fleet over the years, they arn't all bad, even you have some good points
. How's the job hunting going?
Avoid imitations
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After all...the Puma was "new" in the 1980's.
An Air Staff Target was put forward in the early 1980s for finding a Puma/Wessex/Lynx replacement. Many of us flying the Puma could see that the Blackhawk would have been ideal for the RAF's role back then. A re-engined (Makila) HC1 was also one of the contenders. As usual there was no money and all went quiet.
I would hope that MOD will not throw away the money being spent on the ongoing Puma upgrade to HC2 specification (especially as it's taken another 30 years to get there), but stranger things have happened.
Do they all get axed when Puma 2 comes into service
I have landed both in soggy ground in both the UK and overseas and the single wheel has a far better footprint than the old twin bogie. Because the undercarriage leg cants back if the wheel gets tangled up with rock and bricks it is allowed to roll over them. I have been witness, ie in the cockpit, to some horrific arrivals that would have Cat 4d a 330 even if it had stayed upright. They can roll over; but most have been as a result of a strong crosswind either being towed or offshore refueling.
However it's done now and it will not involve me.
After all...the Puma was "new" in the 1980's.
Thread Starter
Those with an intelligent enough viewpoint (stand-fast MGD) know that the Puma force was pushed to beyond breaking point by senior commanders, not those running the force at the time. Some of those senior commanders were ex-Chinook, some were not.
There are usually around the same percentage of strokers on every squadron, believe it or not even those equipped with Chinook. Anyone who disagrees would most likely be one of them.
There are usually around the same percentage of strokers on every squadron, believe it or not even those equipped with Chinook. Anyone who disagrees would most likely be one of them.
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MGD
I assume that's why Odiham had to import ex Puma and SAR mates to be Ch Flt Cdrs then too!!
Yep, they were moved across the M4 to provide some leadership and oversight when it was discovered the Puma Force was lacking quite a bit of both.
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Its a Puma Jim, but not as we know it...
For those that are adamant the Puma is to get scrapped, do you actually know what is involved in the upgrade and the capability that will be gained?
I suspect you don't know the details and whilst it is a rumour network, for your own credibility it might be worth finding out. It could save embarrassment in the not too distant future as the LEP is giving a 'brand new' aircraft back to the RAF that is nothing like its Mk1 cousin
This is not a rant or 'having a go' at anyone, just hoping that there is no needless Puma bashing that is based on 'fact'
HG
I suspect you don't know the details and whilst it is a rumour network, for your own credibility it might be worth finding out. It could save embarrassment in the not too distant future as the LEP is giving a 'brand new' aircraft back to the RAF that is nothing like its Mk1 cousin
This is not a rant or 'having a go' at anyone, just hoping that there is no needless Puma bashing that is based on 'fact'
HG
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This programme will extend the operational life of the Puma helicopter fleet and is to significantly enhance its capability – particularly in demanding hot and high conditions. It will improve the safety and performance by providing new engines, a digital flight control system, increased platform survivability and enhanced navigation and communications.
Read more: Upgraded RAF Puma Mk 2 Makes First Flight | Air Force News at DefenseTalk
A complete new aircraft i doubt, same fatigue life on the airframe but maybe a life extension. I agree it will be an enhanced aircraft over it's predecessor but as in the lynx 9 it will not be new. The RAF guy's are getting anxious as the possible loss of the Puma 2 on top of the Merlin is a massive hit in the SH role it has had a large foot print in for so long. Not RAF bashing but the writing is on the wall as far as i see it. All fixed wing to RAF and rotary to be AAC & Navy.
Read more: Upgraded RAF Puma Mk 2 Makes First Flight | Air Force News at DefenseTalk
A complete new aircraft i doubt, same fatigue life on the airframe but maybe a life extension. I agree it will be an enhanced aircraft over it's predecessor but as in the lynx 9 it will not be new. The RAF guy's are getting anxious as the possible loss of the Puma 2 on top of the Merlin is a massive hit in the SH role it has had a large foot print in for so long. Not RAF bashing but the writing is on the wall as far as i see it. All fixed wing to RAF and rotary to be AAC & Navy.