SARH
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Tourist,
Tourist said
It is if you want to act like a gentleman and, probably more importantly, if you don't want others to start talking about the embarrasments of you and yours - all 3 Services have events in their histories that are not representative of the otherwise tremendously professional standards displayed by all.
Tourist also said
I've searched through this thread and I can't find an example of anyone describing anyone else as 'unprofessional' - although some have come close.
This thread hasn't been the most edifying I've ever read and should probably have died a natural death a few dozen posts ago.
I feel obliged to say the following though. The Catterick crash was real, not notional. I was there and treated the surviving pilot. To raise the crash in this fashion, to 'score a point' does not show you in a good light sir.
Again, you should retract the post.
Tourist said
It is not my responsibility to avoid talking about your embarrassments.
Tourist also said
It is quite correct for the outside world to give you cr@p, that is normal, particularly when you have a habit of throwing around the word "unprofessional" so freely whenever you see something that you guys don't do.
This thread hasn't been the most edifying I've ever read and should probably have died a natural death a few dozen posts ago.
I feel obliged to say the following though. The Catterick crash was real, not notional. I was there and treated the surviving pilot. To raise the crash in this fashion, to 'score a point' does not show you in a good light sir.
Again, you should retract the post.
Tourist
For a short time there you gave the distinct impression of being a fairly class act. Regrettably you now seem to have the unmistakable immature xenophobic traits so often displayed by your main protagonist on this thread. That you should refer to the Catterick crash in this way is to tread an unwise path as none of the flying elements of the military are without sin.
You have lost the moral high ground old lad. Perhaps you should 'retract to regain'.
You have lost the moral high ground old lad. Perhaps you should 'retract to regain'.
Join Date: Jan 2008
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Sun Who
"I've searched through this thread and I can't find an example of anyone describing anyone else as 'unprofessional' - although some have come close."
Have a look at Tourist's post No 234, an inference could be made / it could be read either way.
.
"I've searched through this thread and I can't find an example of anyone describing anyone else as 'unprofessional' - although some have come close."
Have a look at Tourist's post No 234, an inference could be made / it could be read either way.
.
Sad to see people using tragic isolated incidents to 'points score'. Aviation history is littered with avoidable accidents and probably always will be, just read a summary of the Air France Airbus incident this morning which proved the point in no uncertain terms.
Merry Xmas to all especially those away on Ops at the moment. Maybe even Tourist and Crab will put their differences aside and leave their individual trenches for a quick inter-service game of football in the no-man's land of PPRune?
llamaman
Merry Xmas to all especially those away on Ops at the moment. Maybe even Tourist and Crab will put their differences aside and leave their individual trenches for a quick inter-service game of football in the no-man's land of PPRune?
llamaman
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Interested Parties
List of attendees at the Industry Day
http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/uk-sar-helicopters-services/attendees.pdf
http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/uk-sar-helicopters-services/attendees.pdf
It's about mitigating risk whilst training. Of course routes aren't recce'd for a one-off high-threat Op, likewise RAF crews don't blindly follow recce information and ignore what they see through the goggles. There's pros and cons to both systems without having to say which one is right 
The FOB allows unrecce NVG routes down to 100' in DUA and Local Areas, given that's mainly what the AAC do its not surprising. SH travel further and need to recce to reduce the risk. Simple.
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To possibly clarify what tourist meant to say, not all operaters recce routes, route recces are a luxury that simply does not exist in reality, so we train as such. I do not reccall a route recce for Sierra Leone, or of the Al faw peninsula Gay is not the word I personally would of used, however I understand his direction.
No we do not route recce, but it does make you a wee bit limp wristed if you do! But only a bit.
No we do not route recce, but it does make you a wee bit limp wristed if you do! But only a bit.
At the time, the RAF SH boys were not allowed to do low NVG routes at night unless daylight recced before in daylight which was a bit gay. I assume that has now changed?
A nice bit of good natured banter to which I responded with some good natured counter banter fire
Beat me to it, precisely what we were doing in 1997 as I was leaving SH. Based on the amount of unmarked stuff I helped, during the daylight recce, put onto maps for the night sorties it seemed an eminently sensible thing to do, only a bloody cowboy would think any different
The Gay banter caused no angst or offence this end but the cowboy counter banter does not seem to have been taken quite so well, hence the toy pram separation
guidedweapons
It depends on which particular form of 'reality' you find yourself in. For a pre-planned route that can be recce'd in daylight with little or no tactical risk (e.g. regular routes from Croatia into Bosnia on Op Hamden mid-90s) then why not. For a high-risk one-off deliberate Op then maybe not. It's called flexibility.
It depends on which particular form of 'reality' you find yourself in. For a pre-planned route that can be recce'd in daylight with little or no tactical risk (e.g. regular routes from Croatia into Bosnia on Op Hamden mid-90s) then why not. For a high-risk one-off deliberate Op then maybe not. It's called flexibility.
Surely the whole point of reconnoitring routes in peacetime is to help keep alive the people who will be needed to fly in combat? There's no point wiping out your people in training - same as the debate in the Airworthiness thread.
No surprise there - why do you think they were posted to St Mawgan with its resident fleet of 3 helicopters?
St Mawgan ATC told me to "Stby" on receipt of my PAN
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Good thread this for anyone wanting to debate or read about the new SAR(H) procurement....NOT!
Now that Crab doesn't have to fight for Chivenor... It seems the decision to axe Portland and Boulmer has yet to find some vocal opponents on here...
Now that Crab doesn't have to fight for Chivenor... It seems the decision to axe Portland and Boulmer has yet to find some vocal opponents on here...
Tallsar,
You could always start the ball rolling yourself, that might start things moving in the right direction....
Alternatively I could throw into the mix the comment that Portland isn't a 24/7 base now, but does that justify its closure?
You could always start the ball rolling yourself, that might start things moving in the right direction....
Alternatively I could throw into the mix the comment that Portland isn't a 24/7 base now, but does that justify its closure?
Regarding NVG route recce and obstacle information on ops vs training I approached both the same way - get as much information as I could. More info = more effective use of the aircraft and its systems.
Interesting to see the AAC approach it the same way for Apache ops in Libya. In their case they had the professionalism to request wire and obstacle data from the Sentinel dudes. Again, the more info you have about the hazards around you the more effective you will be in doing your job. Getting a radar update, conducting a recce or asking a mate what he saw yesterday can make all the difference!
Interesting to see the AAC approach it the same way for Apache ops in Libya. In their case they had the professionalism to request wire and obstacle data from the Sentinel dudes. Again, the more info you have about the hazards around you the more effective you will be in doing your job. Getting a radar update, conducting a recce or asking a mate what he saw yesterday can make all the difference!