SARH
How much rtoation of experience happens in the rotary world between SH and SAR crews over time. Is is a case of once on the SK fleet you generally stay there, or do the Puma/Merlin/Wokka mates cross over?
Unfortunately, this only came about after many years where very few people were prised out of a SAR slot, with the consequence that not many SH guys got a 'rest tour' on SAR (unlike the RN); a recent SAR Force Cdr recognized that this was wrong, and did much to address this (including getting SAR Force aircrew involved in MERT amongst other things), but the damage was done and the MOD decided that there was no justification in hanging onto SAR for rest tour purposes
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Torque,
er, I don't think so. The cross-pol started following the first study into UK SAR (predecessor to SARH) which showed that there was no operational justification for the yellow SARF. The "..if we don't get some cross-pol going (as the RN has always done) we will lose any position in future SAR...sort it!" happened. The SARF tried to break into MCT and all sorts of other activity in order to justify itself.
Re MR teams....if they are needed for post crash work why not make this a RAF Regt task?
a recent SAR Force Cdr recognized that this was wrong, and did much to address this
Re MR teams....if they are needed for post crash work why not make this a RAF Regt task?
As for a 2-way street between SH and SAR - all but 4 of the 28 Sqn rearcrew applied for SAR pre-select last week! Now let me see how many SAR rear-crew are clamouring to go SH.......errrrrrrrrrrr.
There seems to have been a fairly major influx of Puma pilots into SAR in the last few years as well - most definitely not matched by those going the other way.
Some who hankered after SH but were posted SAR have got their wish to go green but not many seem to enjoy it - SH is good for promotion and medals but that is it.
Now the decision has been made on dates and full civilianisation just watch the number of SH guys trying to get SAR slots in order to gain kudos for their subsequent CVs to the winning bidder!
There seems to have been a fairly major influx of Puma pilots into SAR in the last few years as well - most definitely not matched by those going the other way.
Some who hankered after SH but were posted SAR have got their wish to go green but not many seem to enjoy it - SH is good for promotion and medals but that is it.
Now the decision has been made on dates and full civilianisation just watch the number of SH guys trying to get SAR slots in order to gain kudos for their subsequent CVs to the winning bidder!
Bismark,
Maybe I attributed slightly too much to one individual, but he certainly did a great deal to try to show the potential benefits to the UK of keeping SAR military. Whether you feel that that was self-justification for its own sake, or a genuine attempt to offer extra capability with the existing set-up (which won't be achievable with purely civ SAR), depends on how cynical you are!
And to whom do you attribute the "..if we don't get some cross-pol going...we will lose any position in future SAR...sort it!"? The SAR Force has had very few supporters in high places for some years, so I doubt that anyone in the MOD or high up in the RAF initiated this! Most of the energy came from much lower down the hierarchy.
Crab,
I never said that lots of SAR people were clamouring to go SH (though some are!), nor did I specify pilots or rearcrew, nor enjoyment levels...but the fact is that there is more cross-pollination now than there was 5-10 years ago. I don't have exact figures to hand (nor do you!) but let's face it, it's been pretty hard to get a Puma slot recently because they have stopped training people of any background! So it's kind of inevitable that the number of people going Puma - Sea King has exceeded those going in the reverse direction.
TOTD
Maybe I attributed slightly too much to one individual, but he certainly did a great deal to try to show the potential benefits to the UK of keeping SAR military. Whether you feel that that was self-justification for its own sake, or a genuine attempt to offer extra capability with the existing set-up (which won't be achievable with purely civ SAR), depends on how cynical you are!
And to whom do you attribute the "..if we don't get some cross-pol going...we will lose any position in future SAR...sort it!"? The SAR Force has had very few supporters in high places for some years, so I doubt that anyone in the MOD or high up in the RAF initiated this! Most of the energy came from much lower down the hierarchy.
Crab,
I never said that lots of SAR people were clamouring to go SH (though some are!), nor did I specify pilots or rearcrew, nor enjoyment levels...but the fact is that there is more cross-pollination now than there was 5-10 years ago. I don't have exact figures to hand (nor do you!) but let's face it, it's been pretty hard to get a Puma slot recently because they have stopped training people of any background! So it's kind of inevitable that the number of people going Puma - Sea King has exceeded those going in the reverse direction.
TOTD
Bismark,
Absolutely right (and I know who you mean!) - but let's face it, even a 1* is small fry compared to the people actually making decisions about where to go with UK SAR. My point was that it's only at Gp Capt level (or thereabouts) where the push to show the merits of mil SAR originated.
TOTD
Absolutely right (and I know who you mean!) - but let's face it, even a 1* is small fry compared to the people actually making decisions about where to go with UK SAR. My point was that it's only at Gp Capt level (or thereabouts) where the push to show the merits of mil SAR originated.
TOTD
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Question:
If new SAR service is based at current military locations who will man the ATC during airfield closed hours? e.g. Culdrose is fogged out most of the time and SAR usually launches at night and in bad weather. Culdrose has no ILS.
Is this an issue?
If new SAR service is based at current military locations who will man the ATC during airfield closed hours? e.g. Culdrose is fogged out most of the time and SAR usually launches at night and in bad weather. Culdrose has no ILS.
Is this an issue?
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Culdrose does have an ILS..... and is almost never fogged out beyond rotary operations.
Who is spreading this anti Culdrose cr@p?
You can always get in to Culdrose no matter if it is Red/Red. The only place better in bad weather is Prestwick!
Plus the duty air trafficers will man ATC. It is their job!
Who is spreading this anti Culdrose cr@p?
You can always get in to Culdrose no matter if it is Red/Red. The only place better in bad weather is Prestwick!
Plus the duty air trafficers will man ATC. It is their job!
Bismark,
The same people who currently man ATC during closed hours at Boulmer(*), Chivenor, Leconfield, Lee-on-Solent, Portland(*) and Stornoway perhaps....
* - Yes, I know these locations are closing!
The same people who currently man ATC during closed hours at Boulmer(*), Chivenor, Leconfield, Lee-on-Solent, Portland(*) and Stornoway perhaps....
* - Yes, I know these locations are closing!
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When did Culdrose get an ILS it is not listed in my flight manual?
Will Mil ATC cover OOO for civ SAR if so who pays?
Will civ SAR grub it back into Culdrose?
Is Portland etc night SAR?
Will Mil ATC cover OOO for civ SAR if so who pays?
Will civ SAR grub it back into Culdrose?
Is Portland etc night SAR?
Portland isn't 24/7, but certainly operates at "night" at certain times of year, and outside of the general opening hours of most small airfields.
The rest in my list are 24/7 - I was trying to illustrate a point...
The rest in my list are 24/7 - I was trying to illustrate a point...
Errr - don't need ATC to use an ILS, DH for cat 1 is min of 200', Culdrose weather often Red so well below ILS minima - only recovery option is internal aids radar to visual at coast.
Does RN SAR cab actually have an ILS???
Culdrose has a poor weather factor whether you can recover by grovelling or not.
Does RN SAR cab actually have an ILS???
Culdrose has a poor weather factor whether you can recover by grovelling or not.
My point (to Bismark) was that many of the current SAR bases don't have the luxury of an ATC set up such as that enjoyed at Culdrose, but still seem to be able to cope more than adequately........
Sorry, my internet connection has peaked at pre-dial up speeds so I don't know if this has been posted. Extract from official blurb.
QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS
Will this mean that DfT will take full responsibility for UK SAR?
Yes. The DfT will take full responsibility for the SAR-H procurement with immediate effect and for the operational SAR helicopter service upon the retirement of the final Sea King SAR aircraft in 2016.
Did the review look at the possibility of extending the life of the Sea Kings?
Yes this was considered, however, even with such an extension, the Sea Kings would not be able to provide the long-term SAR service for the UK which SAR-H, based on a modern fleet of aircraft, will deliver.
Why change, when the existing service is doing a good job?
While we recognise that the current UK SAR helicopter providers deliver a first-class service the fact remains that the Sea Kings are reaching the end of their useful life and MCA arrangements are forecast to end in 2017; they therefore need replacing. This is an opportunity to bring together the service provided by MCA and MOD, ensuring a high standard of UK helicopter Search and Rescue is maintained well into the future.
Is SAR being privatised?
No. Control of the UK SAR service delivered by the contractor will continue to be managed by HM Government, including control of the tasking of the service carried out by the Aeronautical Rescue Co-ordination Centre.
Will there be a decrease in the level of SAR service when the new service is established?
The future service will continue to meet the full UK national SAR requirement and be at least as successful as at present; providing the UK with an excellent SAR helicopter service with the ability to save lives well into the future
How will you transfer from current operations to the new service?
There will be a phased transfer to the new arrangements, with the Sea King SAR aircraft being progressively retired during 2015 and 2016 to ensure continuity of an effective UK SAR service. The contractor will then assume operations in relation to the MCA capability when their arrangements end.
Will the tasking of helicopters for each rescue be passed over to the SAR-H Contractor?
No. HM Government will retain overall control and tasking of the service.
QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS
Will this mean that DfT will take full responsibility for UK SAR?
Yes. The DfT will take full responsibility for the SAR-H procurement with immediate effect and for the operational SAR helicopter service upon the retirement of the final Sea King SAR aircraft in 2016.
Did the review look at the possibility of extending the life of the Sea Kings?
Yes this was considered, however, even with such an extension, the Sea Kings would not be able to provide the long-term SAR service for the UK which SAR-H, based on a modern fleet of aircraft, will deliver.
Why change, when the existing service is doing a good job?
While we recognise that the current UK SAR helicopter providers deliver a first-class service the fact remains that the Sea Kings are reaching the end of their useful life and MCA arrangements are forecast to end in 2017; they therefore need replacing. This is an opportunity to bring together the service provided by MCA and MOD, ensuring a high standard of UK helicopter Search and Rescue is maintained well into the future.
Is SAR being privatised?
No. Control of the UK SAR service delivered by the contractor will continue to be managed by HM Government, including control of the tasking of the service carried out by the Aeronautical Rescue Co-ordination Centre.
Will there be a decrease in the level of SAR service when the new service is established?
The future service will continue to meet the full UK national SAR requirement and be at least as successful as at present; providing the UK with an excellent SAR helicopter service with the ability to save lives well into the future
How will you transfer from current operations to the new service?
There will be a phased transfer to the new arrangements, with the Sea King SAR aircraft being progressively retired during 2015 and 2016 to ensure continuity of an effective UK SAR service. The contractor will then assume operations in relation to the MCA capability when their arrangements end.
Will the tasking of helicopters for each rescue be passed over to the SAR-H Contractor?
No. HM Government will retain overall control and tasking of the service.
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REF R.A.F. MRT
What I heard a few years ago, and what was restated last weekend is that MRT is to be civilianised.
The date this was/ is to occur was tied in with the privatisation of SAR. This does not mean that the dates for privatisation of SAR and MRT are to be the same.
The date this was/ is to occur was tied in with the privatisation of SAR. This does not mean that the dates for privatisation of SAR and MRT are to be the same.
Unfortunately the RN ATC and command structure seems to think that helicopters can't possibly fly without ATC!
Biggus, you are right but not many SAR bases go Red as often as Culdrose.
Biggus, you are right but not many SAR bases go Red as often as Culdrose.