Bomber Boys:
Airmcrew in Concentration Camps
I was surprised, saddened and I guess a bit cross to find out for the first time that surviving crews, as Prisoners of War, had been incarcerated in concentration, rather than PoW camps. How come this has not come to light before? Did this gross breach of the Geneva Convention not come to light during the investigations for war crimes trials in Germany? The airmen involved must have kept quiet about it, but with 160+ involved, it is surprising it has not come to light before. I am in awe of their courage and fortitude.
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Lixwm,Flintshire
Posts: 262
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not all concentration camps were extermination or work camps. Their original purpose was to have secure units for political prisoners. I know at least one which was until recently still in use as a police barracks.
Please be assured I am not defending such camps.
Please be assured I am not defending such camps.
But the camp where the aircrew were imprisoned was a "work and death" camp, and had the Luftwaffe not turned up at the 11th hour, it seems that the British aircrew were due to be murdered the following day.
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: The 3 Valleys
Posts: 187
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
@ColinB
Their original purpose was to take anybody the regime didn't like which broadened considerably over the years.
Can you say which were not and when ( if relevant.) I would be interested to know.
Which one please ?
Their original purpose was to have secure units for political prisoners
Not all concentration camps were extermination or work camps.
I know at least one which was until recently still in use as a police barracks.
None but a blockhead
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: London, UK
Posts: 535
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There were something like 15,000 concentration camps across Nazi-occupied Europe in total, and they were used for lots of things and held lots of different sorts of people.
It doesn't take long with Google to flesh out the details, of which there are many, and there are worse ways to spend an hour this weekend than to remind ourselves.
The camps' extinction was bought at a very high price. Knowing about them and thinking soberly about how they happened is as respectful towards those who paid that price as wearing the poppy.
R
It doesn't take long with Google to flesh out the details, of which there are many, and there are worse ways to spend an hour this weekend than to remind ourselves.
The camps' extinction was bought at a very high price. Knowing about them and thinking soberly about how they happened is as respectful towards those who paid that price as wearing the poppy.
R
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Lixwm,Flintshire
Posts: 262
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Quote:
Their original purpose was to have secure units for political prisoners
Their original purpose was to take anybody the regime didn't like which broadened considerably over the years.
Quote:
Not all concentration camps were extermination or work camps.
Can you say which were not and when ( if relevant.) I would be interested to know.
Quote:
I know at least one which was until recently still in use as a police barracks.
Which one please ?
Their original purpose was to have secure units for political prisoners
Their original purpose was to take anybody the regime didn't like which broadened considerably over the years.
Quote:
Not all concentration camps were extermination or work camps.
Can you say which were not and when ( if relevant.) I would be interested to know.
Quote:
I know at least one which was until recently still in use as a police barracks.
Which one please ?
The original reason for concentration camps was to detain political prisoners as it was outside the scope of the police and the judiciary demanded due process before they could detain and imprison.
At Dachau the former SS barracks adjacent to the camp are now occupied by the Bavarian Bereitschaftspolizei (rapid response police unit)
It is some years since I researched it but this is what I remember as my view at the time.
Germany is a country with a strong religious background and in the 1930s the National Socialists made a number of overtures to the Church to find a justification for the euthanasia program. I do recall one, apparently sympathetic ear, was that of the Bishop of Buckeburg and overtures were also made to the Vatican.
If you are interested the following is my pick of an extensive coverage.
The standard book in my day was Hitler’s Death Camps by Konnilyn Fieg, a balanced view.
The best book I read on the psychology of the camp administrators is Into That Darkness by Gitta Sereny. A story of how Franz Stangl got into and out of the Holocaust. The vision of him supervising the gassing and burning of thousands in his working hours then riding home on his white horse afterwards to tea on the lawn in front of his house with his wife and children stayed with me a long time.
The film Shoa by Claude Lanzmann gives perhaps the best insight into the relationship between the camps and the rural Germans.
Hipper:
.
I seem to remember that the 50% death rate sometimes quoted takes account of the many new members of Bomber Command not yet operational when hostilities ceased. When they are taken out of the final total then the appalling statistic of 1 in 2 not surviving is arrived at.
Re the medal business, I take PN and TTN's point, but I have always felt that the skies over Germany constituted a geographical Theatre of War in their own right (what Harris termed the Battle of Germany). If a campaign medal had been struck for that alone, a la the Atlantic medal, then much of this rumbling discontent would have been avoided. It would thus have become predominantly, though not entirely, in effect (if not officially) a Bomber Command Medal. Having a generic France Germany Star instead diluted that effect. Given that the Aircrew Europe Star that preceded it was known as the "Bomber Command Medal", the intent of those who stopped the latter in favour of the former gives grounds for some suspicion. By D-Day the anti BC, anti Harris, rhetoric was already in its stride, culminating of course with Churchill's infamous Dresden memo and the non-ennoblement, alone among his peers, of the AOC-in-C Bomber Command.
According to Wiki: '55,573 killed out of a total of 125,000 aircrew (a 44.4% death rate)'
I seem to remember that the 50% death rate sometimes quoted takes account of the many new members of Bomber Command not yet operational when hostilities ceased. When they are taken out of the final total then the appalling statistic of 1 in 2 not surviving is arrived at.
Re the medal business, I take PN and TTN's point, but I have always felt that the skies over Germany constituted a geographical Theatre of War in their own right (what Harris termed the Battle of Germany). If a campaign medal had been struck for that alone, a la the Atlantic medal, then much of this rumbling discontent would have been avoided. It would thus have become predominantly, though not entirely, in effect (if not officially) a Bomber Command Medal. Having a generic France Germany Star instead diluted that effect. Given that the Aircrew Europe Star that preceded it was known as the "Bomber Command Medal", the intent of those who stopped the latter in favour of the former gives grounds for some suspicion. By D-Day the anti BC, anti Harris, rhetoric was already in its stride, culminating of course with Churchill's infamous Dresden memo and the non-ennoblement, alone among his peers, of the AOC-in-C Bomber Command.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
You're quite correct about the escape hatch located under the Bomb Aimer's position. However, I understand it was relatively small, especially for a crew member togged up with flying gear, mae west and parachute. It was also still a struggle for the Nav and Wireless Operator to get right the nose of the aircraft as I understand their crew positions were located in a relatively central position of the fuselage, compared to the Halifax.
When I was in the nose, ahead of the escape hatch I can assure you I had no fear of getting stuck, quite the reverse.
The navigator was not too badly placed. His canopy on top of the fuselage just behind his seat. All he had to do (if that was not enough) was to squirrel himself partly under the pilot's seat and the gap under the instrument panel.
The radio operator was not as well place IIRC he had a spar to climb over as well unless he used the upper escape hatch (if my memory hasn't failed me).
What was the opinion among the post-war 'heavy' crews, such as your own distinguished squadron when you were flying? Or is this all a latter-day, 'benefit of hindsight' push for a specific medal?
Certainly when I was dealing in militaria, including medals, I became very aware of a growing tendency for people wanting some tangible recognition of their service, hence the proliferation of unofficial medals now commonly seen, such as the Normandy Veterans Medal, The National Service Medal etc. One which was succesfully campaigned for was the Pole Star emblem which was recently authorised to be worn on the Atlantic Star ribbon by those who took part in the Arctic Convoys. Perhaps a similar thing could be argued for Bomber Command, but it's really getting rather late, I'd have thought. In any case a bomb symbol might not be quite the thing!
I dont ever recall any conversations about this subject at the time
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
FED, I think the prevailing attitude in the immediate post-war era was that's done never again and the medals given to the sprogs to play with. Those still serving knew they needed them for the weekly parades and funerals.
My old man always wore the ribbons but never cherished the medals. He wore the ribbons as it was the done thing in the merchant navy or indeed just about any service where uniforms were worn - doormen, policemen, fire service, bus conductors (?).
My old man always wore the ribbons but never cherished the medals. He wore the ribbons as it was the done thing in the merchant navy or indeed just about any service where uniforms were worn - doormen, policemen, fire service, bus conductors (?).
Remember serving with a Flt Lt at London Centre, 2 rows of ribbons and a Pathfinder eagle. Thoroughly nice chap however, whenever any representatives from Germany were due to visit, either the Wg Cdr or Gp Capt would have a gentle word and the watch roster would be quietly changed to put him on 'gardening leave' for the day. We never heard the reasons why and we wouldn't dream of asking.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
FZ, many years ago at a dining in night a GAF Transall returned to Waddo as he could not find any open airfield in Europe and he trusted the Waddo controllers. We were Red at the time and they tried to get him to go elsewhere.
Anyway they then came to the drinks afterwards in No 1s, white shirts and possibly even bow ties. OC Ops, who had no medals as far as I can recall, stormed out and would not stay in the mess when they were there.
A few years after that on a campsite in France there was a German couple. He had a very bad limp. My wife said Hello Hello by was of introduction and eventually asked about the limp.
"Ach, it was the war you know. He got it in ze blitz. What does your husband do?"
Mrs PN, like a flash "Oh, he is just a civil servant." Guaranteed to kill any further questions.
OTOH, some years later at the BoB Cocktail Party PMC spies German navigator exchange officer and apologies along the lines of embarassment and perhaps he should not have been expected to attend.
"Not at all", he said, "without us you would not have had an excuse for a party."
Anyway they then came to the drinks afterwards in No 1s, white shirts and possibly even bow ties. OC Ops, who had no medals as far as I can recall, stormed out and would not stay in the mess when they were there.
A few years after that on a campsite in France there was a German couple. He had a very bad limp. My wife said Hello Hello by was of introduction and eventually asked about the limp.
"Ach, it was the war you know. He got it in ze blitz. What does your husband do?"
Mrs PN, like a flash "Oh, he is just a civil servant." Guaranteed to kill any further questions.
OTOH, some years later at the BoB Cocktail Party PMC spies German navigator exchange officer and apologies along the lines of embarassment and perhaps he should not have been expected to attend.
"Not at all", he said, "without us you would not have had an excuse for a party."
PN, your anecdotes remind me of a Guest Night at RAFC in the very early '60s. Gus Walker presided at Top Table. A serving (but ex wartime also) Luftwaffe General sat beside him. Those nearby said that Gus ignored him all night. Such boorish behaviour from such a gallant and affable man speaks volumes of the real depths of feeling below the surface calm.
TTN:
I see that in concert with the call for a Bomber Campaign Medal (a Battle of Germany Star?) there are equally calls for those who took part in the Arctic Convoys to receive a separate medal (an Arctic Star?). Most had already earned the Atlantic Star anyway, in an ocean some 800 miles away! That both the Arctic and Bomber Campaigns gave enormous assistance to the Red Army's ability to push the Wehrmacht ever westwards is of note. That ally was rapidly becoming a potential, if not an actual foe, when these medals were not struck.
TTN:
...the Pole Star emblem which was recently authorised to be worn on the Atlantic Star ribbon by those who took part in the Arctic Convoys
That ally was rapidly becoming a potential, if not an actual foe, when these medals were not struck.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
TTN, good point about the Soviet medals.
What was the rationale for not awarding both Pacific and Burma stars?
What was the rationale for not awarding both Pacific and Burma stars?
Last edited by Pontius Navigator; 16th Nov 2011 at 12:46.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
He goes the the Russian memorial service each may which is held near the IWM.
Interesting about the 151 Wing chap - is he ever there at weekends? I'll be staying 9th-11th Dec, would be nice to say hello.
At some stage it was decided that the maximum number of stars which could be awarded to one individual was five. I assume this was probably a matter of practicality, as groups of 6 or 7 stars with the other campaign medals might just be too unwieldy, but I'm only guessing. So you could get the Burma Star with the Pacific clasp, or vice versa.
As well as that example, you could only get either the Aircrew Europe Star or the Atlantic Star - not both. Clasps for the second star qualified for were worn on the ribbon of the first. I have seen a few groups with the maximum five stars, with clasps on the stars - Prince Philip's medals are a good example.
What was the rationale for not awarding both Pacific and Burma stars?
As well as that example, you could only get either the Aircrew Europe Star or the Atlantic Star - not both. Clasps for the second star qualified for were worn on the ribbon of the first. I have seen a few groups with the maximum five stars, with clasps on the stars - Prince Philip's medals are a good example.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
TTN, the 9th is a Friday so he may be there. Small and unasuming, dark hair and dark moustache. Usually far corner of the Cowdray Room either at the bar or the otherside of it. Dark jacket.
The give away is the Arctic Star.
You could ask the bar maid.
The give away is the Arctic Star.
You could ask the bar maid.
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Under the flightpath 16 km NNE of FAO
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Avro Lancaster
Yes the Lanc is very narrow and clambering over the main spar in the dark in full gear with a flaming aircraft about to ditch is not fun. (My father’s Lanc exploded in the air: http://www.flensted.eu.com/1944078.shtml ) If ‘tail-end Charlie’s’ turret jammed, he wend down with the plain. All alone in the back he was the first to be shot by the enemy coming from behind. Often the rear gunner would knock out the thin Perspex to have better night vision; the hours of sub-zero temperatures would freeze his feet as often the sweat from his heated boots short-circuited the electrics. If you have the chance to visit the superb museum in East Kirkby (my father was an F/E there with 630 Squadron) they have a working Lancaster and you can see how basic and cramped it is, plus hear the Merlins at full power: http://www.lincsaviation.co.uk/
We go to England each July for the Squadron reunion and memorial service:
After Fighter Command had secured the homeland, http://www.bbc.co.uk/archive/battleofbritain/11421.shtml it was the role of Bomber Command to take the war to heart of the enemy to finish the job.
As with the Bomber Command memorial, recognition of Dowding and later Harris, whose statues are in front of the RAF Church, St. Clement Danes in the Strand, London, had no government support and were paid for by public subscription.
There is a Battle of Britain Memorial Chapel at Biggin Hill:http://ww2db.com/image.php?image_id=8777
We go to England each July for the Squadron reunion and memorial service:
As with the Bomber Command memorial, recognition of Dowding and later Harris, whose statues are in front of the RAF Church, St. Clement Danes in the Strand, London, had no government support and were paid for by public subscription.
There is a Battle of Britain Memorial Chapel at Biggin Hill:http://ww2db.com/image.php?image_id=8777