British Military Planning for Iranian Strike?
Yes sir. I spent a very enjoyable 5 years as firstly the Flt Trg Off on 25 Sqn, Then 18 months on 85 Sqn (horrible as MOD were spending over £2 million on a waste of space upgrade to turn anologue radar displays into colour digital displays that didn't work). Our only decent 80 mile low level to 80,000ft UK defensive SAM system was scrapped in 1991 because of the cost (minimal) of replacing the 4 solid propellant boost rockets on 300+ missiles. Very sad as those systems were very effective - especially when jammed. Nothing of their capability will ever be comissioned again to defend UK airspace.
How are the Gulf War 1 US supplied Patriot's doing for Israel? I suspect that as we speak the USA (Raytheon) are updating those systems as a matter of urgency.......... (The algorithms were cocked up in GW1 resulting in an RAF Tornado loss).
CIOW
How are the Gulf War 1 US supplied Patriot's doing for Israel? I suspect that as we speak the USA (Raytheon) are updating those systems as a matter of urgency.......... (The algorithms were cocked up in GW1 resulting in an RAF Tornado loss).
CIOW
Also, you don't HAVE to have the special thyristors (I've forgotten the proper name) in a nuclear bomb - there are other ways of initiating the explosion timing. And even if you did need them, thy could be smuggled from China or elsewhere
I'm looking forward to reading the imminent UN report. Interesting to read today that Russia (having no doubt already read the report) are already strongly vetoeing a pre-emptive attack.
Tourist stated:
"You are not even very knowledgable in your own area of "expertise", are you.
".
Tourist, I would like you to publicly state why you doubt the facts. I attended TLP course 91/4 from 10/6 to 5/7/91. I was the UK SAM specialist on that course. Whilst I was there the Dutch Patriot Controller on the course received a signal. He was immediately recalled to his battery & told me that his Patriot system needed a new software update from the USA - directly as a result of the shooting down of the UK Tornado..
It's public knowledge since 1991.........
"You are not even very knowledgable in your own area of "expertise", are you.
".Tourist, I would like you to publicly state why you doubt the facts. I attended TLP course 91/4 from 10/6 to 5/7/91. I was the UK SAM specialist on that course. Whilst I was there the Dutch Patriot Controller on the course received a signal. He was immediately recalled to his battery & told me that his Patriot system needed a new software update from the USA - directly as a result of the shooting down of the UK Tornado..
It's public knowledge since 1991.........
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I call Walt and I want my five pounds....
I have never read such a load of tripe - and I thought I was one of the resident tin foil armadillo wearing nutters.
Sam, either you have travelled far and much or you spout a crock o ****e.
If you had travelled far then you would know better - I shall now add you to my ignore list.
Goodbye you dopey chimp
I have never read such a load of tripe - and I thought I was one of the resident tin foil armadillo wearing nutters.
Sam, either you have travelled far and much or you spout a crock o ****e.
If you had travelled far then you would know better - I shall now add you to my ignore list.
Goodbye you dopey chimp
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SAM
Sometimes people get excited about their own importance in the whole scheme of things.
This happens most regularly to those promoted beyond their capabilities in my experience.
read this
http://www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/32E5E...10_22mar03.pdf
Your quote "The algorithms were cocked up in GW1 resulting in an RAF Tornado loss" rather fails to understand basic causality and the importance of one link in a very long and depressing chain.
Sometimes people get excited about their own importance in the whole scheme of things.
This happens most regularly to those promoted beyond their capabilities in my experience.
read this
http://www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/32E5E...10_22mar03.pdf
Your quote "The algorithms were cocked up in GW1 resulting in an RAF Tornado loss" rather fails to understand basic causality and the importance of one link in a very long and depressing chain.
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SAM
I've only just noticed that you are talking about a Tornado shoot down in 1991 when you were on TLP, and not the 2003 Patriot fratricide.
Really?
Can you send me a link to info on the 1991 accident, I feel the need to learn more but can't seem to find any info.
I've only just noticed that you are talking about a Tornado shoot down in 1991 when you were on TLP, and not the 2003 Patriot fratricide.
Really?
Can you send me a link to info on the 1991 accident, I feel the need to learn more but can't seem to find any info.
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ACW599
Spot om - Krytron is exactly what I was thinking of. But I kept getting "Kryten" after watching too much Red Dwarf.....
As to Chinese export restrictions - I wouldn't set great credence on controlling anything from there. They manage to easily evade controls on chemical precursors to WMD. Shipping a few electronic components around should be easy for them
Trim Stab
If you're talking about an implosion bomb then yes you are probably correct.
However if you are talking of a gun design, and especially if you don't bother with a secondary stage then it should be possible to build something deployable, though admittedly of a lower yield. Remember, they don't need to build something elegant:: anything that works, even if its low yield and dirty, is good enough
Spot om - Krytron is exactly what I was thinking of. But I kept getting "Kryten" after watching too much Red Dwarf.....
As to Chinese export restrictions - I wouldn't set great credence on controlling anything from there. They manage to easily evade controls on chemical precursors to WMD. Shipping a few electronic components around should be easy for them
Trim Stab
If you're talking about an implosion bomb then yes you are probably correct.
However if you are talking of a gun design, and especially if you don't bother with a secondary stage then it should be possible to build something deployable, though admittedly of a lower yield. Remember, they don't need to build something elegant:: anything that works, even if its low yield and dirty, is good enough
Last edited by jamesdevice; 7th Nov 2011 at 20:24.
So a Tornado gets shot down in 2003 by a Patriot missile and a Dutch Patriot operator gets an update in 1991 as a direct result of an accident that is yet to happen...
...ok, really in tinfoil hat territory now...
...ok, really in tinfoil hat territory now...
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Googling indicates that in 1991 a Patriot Battery launched at a coalition tanker, but the missile crew realised the error and aborted the (auto-launched) missile in flight
There are several references to the 2003 Tornado being the first Patriot aircraft kill, so I suspect SAM is getting the two events muddled
There are several references to the 2003 Tornado being the first Patriot aircraft kill, so I suspect SAM is getting the two events muddled
Last edited by jamesdevice; 7th Nov 2011 at 20:15.
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Just this once...
Surely you are not suggesting.......
that SAM is not entirely at one with the truth?
Perhaps he is just not a believer in temporal linearity?
Who am I to mock the beliefs of a retar....
Sorry, It won't happen again....
p.s. Jamesdevice, muddled is a very kind term for a "TLP attendee" who was there at the time....
"Tourist, I would like you to publicly state why you doubt the facts. I attended TLP course 91/4 from 10/6 to 5/7/91. I was the UK SAM specialist on that course. Whilst I was there the Dutch Patriot Controller on the course received a signal. He was immediately recalled to his battery & told me that his Patriot system needed a new software update from the USA - directly as a result of the shooting down of the UK Tornado.."
Surely you are not suggesting.......
that SAM is not entirely at one with the truth?
Perhaps he is just not a believer in temporal linearity?
Who am I to mock the beliefs of a retar....
Sorry, It won't happen again....
p.s. Jamesdevice, muddled is a very kind term for a "TLP attendee" who was there at the time....
"Tourist, I would like you to publicly state why you doubt the facts. I attended TLP course 91/4 from 10/6 to 5/7/91. I was the UK SAM specialist on that course. Whilst I was there the Dutch Patriot Controller on the course received a signal. He was immediately recalled to his battery & told me that his Patriot system needed a new software update from the USA - directly as a result of the shooting down of the UK Tornado.."
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If you ignore the comments about ragheads the Foreign Legion, and VCs, the the rest of what SAMXXV is probably reasonably accurate
Within its own regional context, the Israeli armed forces DO make ours look limited. OK, their forces are aimed against their immediate neighbours while ours pretend to global aspirations, but look at the facts
Something like 350-400 front line F-15 and F-16 aircraft.
Something like 1600 main battle tanks with a similar number of older models in reserve...
An entire population trained to use weapons
Indiginous nuclear design and build capability
How do we compare??
Within its own regional context, the Israeli armed forces DO make ours look limited. OK, their forces are aimed against their immediate neighbours while ours pretend to global aspirations, but look at the facts
Something like 350-400 front line F-15 and F-16 aircraft.
Something like 1600 main battle tanks with a similar number of older models in reserve...
An entire population trained to use weapons
Indiginous nuclear design and build capability
How do we compare??
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" the rest of what SAMXXV is probably reasonably accurate
Within its own regional context"
Can I modify that by saying that what he'd said up to that point was probably reasonably accurate. What he's said since sounds like bollocks
Within its own regional context"
Can I modify that by saying that what he'd said up to that point was probably reasonably accurate. What he's said since sounds like bollocks
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Except the bomb would then be the size of small car, and undeployable except by low-level C-130, overland, or by ship - ie would never get anywhere near a strategically useful target.
Strategic is relative, for terrorists a city is a strategic target.
That said would the Irainans be the first to deploy if they had the capability? Only if they could get in a good knock out punch that would stop Israel from responding on a large scale with their nukes. You might find one ore two responses might be regarded as okay.
The question is what would the west do? If Iran did launch and take out major Israeli citys what would the response be. Well if it was all finished in short order, the thought is that we are going to wipe out Iranian citys after the fact, you would be mistaken. The worst case retaliation might be to take out military infrastructure.
Now considering that is obvious then most of the important Iranian forces would most likely not be some where obvious.
The end result, major Israeli city's gone, their defence capability reduced, and Iran with a severe bloody nose, and the hero's of the Islamic world.
Over simplification. The islamic world is very divided, particularly between the nations on opposite sides of the Persian/Arabian Gulf. Saudi Arabia and friends are ruled by a different sect to the bunch from which the Iranians hale. Then there is the rumour of Israeli military aircraft seen landing at a Saudi airbase... Pre-positioning supplies? Add to that, the reports of Saudi authorities agreeing to Israeli aircraft transiting their airspace enroute to Iranian targets. Unholy alliance? No, not when Iran is agitating opponents of the regime and threatening the dynasty and certainly no more unholy that the UK and USA jumping into bed with komrad Stalin.
Sadly, it's probably a matter of when? rather than if? Sod all to do with us, but I expect more decent British lives will be wasted in yet another pointless war. Good for business though, for some.
Sadly, it's probably a matter of when? rather than if? Sod all to do with us, but I expect more decent British lives will be wasted in yet another pointless war. Good for business though, for some.
Last edited by AnglianAV8R; 7th Nov 2011 at 22:28. Reason: Finger slipped, I promise you I'm sober
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
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and that means putting substantial pressure on Israel. Trying to blame Iran for regional instability is a red-herring.
A nuclear device the size of a small car would fit easily into a container, a ship claiming to take supplies to Gaza, intercepted by Israel and taken to an Israeli port where a suicide crew detonate it, mission accomplished?
Usually Israeli intelligence is pretty good and it is likely they get information directly from Iran's nuclear facility. An awful lot of Iranians have never hated the Jews but they certainly hate the current administration. Yes I have lived in Iran.
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parabellum
Wouldn't Radiation sensors pick it up before it even got to port ?
(and as you say, that is if of course it actually made it onto a ship in the first place).
Where is SAM, he seems to have gone very quiet !
.
Wouldn't Radiation sensors pick it up before it even got to port ?
(and as you say, that is if of course it actually made it onto a ship in the first place).
Where is SAM, he seems to have gone very quiet !
.
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from todays online Tehran Times
What is behind the rhetoric about war on Iran? - Tehran Times
The emphases are mine
"it is clear that a military attack on Iran cannot be a viable option for Israel. There are a number of good reasons to rule out the possibility of such a strike.
(1) They know that a strike could not stop Iran’s nuclear program (which they claim would be the purpose of the strike), but it would justify Iran’s drive to acquire access to various types of weapons to defend itself.
(2) Even Israeli and U.S. strategists, who believe that the strike could delay Iran’s nuclear program, say that the strike would only set back Iran’s program for two years, and thus it would not be worth the trouble to start a war with Iran.
(3) Any attack against Iran would strengthen Iran’s national cohesion, and the Iranian people would call on officials to give a firm response to the Westerners. As a result, no one in Iran would support the opposition groups anymore, dashing the Westerners’ hopes to overthrow the Islamic system through providing support to the opposition.
(4) Iran has shown that it is totally prepared to counter any military threat and is capable of involving regional and extra-regional countries in any possible war, so they know that any act of adventurism against Iran would be dangerous and that the stakes are high.
(5) U.S. and Israeli intelligence and military officials do not believe that Iran’s nuclear program is their number one threat. They know that the Arab Spring is a much greater threat to their interests. "
Warped thinking from the official Iranian Government mouthpiece
What is behind the rhetoric about war on Iran? - Tehran Times
The emphases are mine
"it is clear that a military attack on Iran cannot be a viable option for Israel. There are a number of good reasons to rule out the possibility of such a strike.
(1) They know that a strike could not stop Iran’s nuclear program (which they claim would be the purpose of the strike), but it would justify Iran’s drive to acquire access to various types of weapons to defend itself.
(2) Even Israeli and U.S. strategists, who believe that the strike could delay Iran’s nuclear program, say that the strike would only set back Iran’s program for two years, and thus it would not be worth the trouble to start a war with Iran.
(3) Any attack against Iran would strengthen Iran’s national cohesion, and the Iranian people would call on officials to give a firm response to the Westerners. As a result, no one in Iran would support the opposition groups anymore, dashing the Westerners’ hopes to overthrow the Islamic system through providing support to the opposition.
(4) Iran has shown that it is totally prepared to counter any military threat and is capable of involving regional and extra-regional countries in any possible war, so they know that any act of adventurism against Iran would be dangerous and that the stakes are high.
(5) U.S. and Israeli intelligence and military officials do not believe that Iran’s nuclear program is their number one threat. They know that the Arab Spring is a much greater threat to their interests. "
Warped thinking from the official Iranian Government mouthpiece
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FWIW regarding the discussions of Nuclear targeting of Eastern European cities and a suggestion that we should have some shame regarding this, since 1994 I have been closely associated with quite a number of former military and security types from former East European regime and had come, during the 1990's to understand the following;
1. The regimes in place were rather enthusiastic about supplying troops and military capability in support of their soviet allies.
2. One retired 2* who I worked with, had personally been involved in driving HGV vehicles through western europe gathering targeting information for soviet nuclear strikes.
Things may have changed and we are all friends now, but 20 years ago it was very very different and its wrong to assume that the population of eastern europe was a supplicant mass held hostage by the soviets.
However, despite the above counter argument to SAM's empathetic stance with the eastern europeans, I also happen to think that Israel is the most dangerous nuclear loose cannon around at the moment. A couple of years ago I was present at a conference where it was realistically postulated that Israel is the only nuclear power (pakistan and India included) where the technical possibility exists for the military to authorise a strike without referral to the politicians, that makes them very dangerous I believe.
1. The regimes in place were rather enthusiastic about supplying troops and military capability in support of their soviet allies.
2. One retired 2* who I worked with, had personally been involved in driving HGV vehicles through western europe gathering targeting information for soviet nuclear strikes.
Things may have changed and we are all friends now, but 20 years ago it was very very different and its wrong to assume that the population of eastern europe was a supplicant mass held hostage by the soviets.
However, despite the above counter argument to SAM's empathetic stance with the eastern europeans, I also happen to think that Israel is the most dangerous nuclear loose cannon around at the moment. A couple of years ago I was present at a conference where it was realistically postulated that Israel is the only nuclear power (pakistan and India included) where the technical possibility exists for the military to authorise a strike without referral to the politicians, that makes them very dangerous I believe.