Scottish Independence

[Willard Whyte]

Never mind Scotlandland, nowhere north of Old Father Thames is worth bothering with.

[Melchett01]

Never mind Scotlandland, nowhere north of Old Father Thames is worth bothering with.

You do realise there are nicer places than Peckham and Wandsworth? Then again, if we're dispensing with everything literally north of the Thames, then I guess we can say goodbye to the House of Commons

[racedo]

I prefer papua New Guinea.

Yes but Papuans are having a vote to split from the New Guineans.

[d88]

nocutstoRAF -

I was picking up on the point that Scotland is a net producer. I cannot find the statistics that have been alluded to by D88, but it does match my memory of things I have seen in the past

Statements I've made were based on the various GERS report, It's been a while since I've looked into this so I'll certainly stand corrected if new figures have been published this year, but i dare say it won't be far off the UK economic trend indicators if they are different. Essentially the unionist parties will use economic statistics for Scotland without, or reduced oil revenue and the SNP will use the statistics with a share of the oil included.

Scottish Government: .

Hummingfrog -

My point is that there is no state pension pot - all state pensions are paid out of current taxation so from day one of independence all Scottish state pensions - and those Scottish public sector pensions that are not funded ( eg All mil pensions) will also have to come out of Scottish taxation - a nightmare waiting to happen.

I think you're basing your assumption on any money Scots have put in to N.I. contribution's (the theoretical basis for eligibility and paying pensions) would be wiped out and declared null and void, a situation I'd think would be unlikely as if that was the case I could see the London Supreme Court and European Courts being very busy with Scots demanding their Ni contributions back for when they were under UK (London) jurisdiction. A more likely scenario is that a settlement would be reached between London and Edinburgh.

As for military pensions, then I'd assume that as ex UK military Scots have seen service on behalf of the Crown and the UK, then that's purely a matter for the UK government to pay military pensions. There is already a precedent for Commonwealth and Gurkha service personnel receiving a pension from the UK for service to the Crown. For instance, retired UK Gurkha's receive a pension from the UK and not from the government of Nepal and I wouldn't see that situation being any different for any ex UK military Scot, especially if the British services still wanted to recruit Scots, which they probably would still want to do.

As for say any UK Civil Service pension then again it's the same scenario, if you're a retired Scottish (UK) Civil Servant who has given x amount of years service to the Crown and who has paid contributions into the UK scheme then why wouldn't their Civil Service pension not be paid from London ?

[HTB]

Thanks TTN

Re my medal/cross confusion: I thought it must be something along those lines - just not sure of where the changeover point was (especially nearly 100years ago).

Mister B

[John Botwood]

Another Trigger to the Independence Movement

I found this in my archives from 1995 (it has seen publication in this forum before). It was from a dear old lady who had been well known in the Messes in the 50s.

The Latest From Gilly on 120
Dear Sir
You may possibly remember publishing my letter in the 14th edition (Retirement Special) of the Growler. Sadly: apart from Tumfy, I never heard from any of the boys from 120 Squadron. I never met dear Tumfy, he being a wee bit older than me, but my elder sister and her Aviemore knitting class speak highly and often of him. The ladies of Elgin fondly remember all those gallant and handsome lads that gave us such glorious memories to keep us warm in our later years.
I was delighted to find the latest edition of your publication in Dr. Symons waiting room in Elgin. My surprise was even greater on seeing that some of our heroes had revisited Kinloss last September. I suppose that it was too much to hope that they would have had time to meet with us to reminisce about the time in 1960 when Womans Day voted 120 Squadron the "Bravest and most Handsome Men in Britain".
Then, when I thought that there would be nothing more to surprise me, there on page eight was a cartoon telling the tale of the loss of Jacky - my poor wee green budgie. Contrary to the caption in the cartoon, the boys from 120 DID get airborne in horrendous conditions - they would do anything for Gilly in those days. Another spur was that their squadron crest looks so much like a poor wee green budgie, that honour required them to sally forth. Other Coastal squadrons refused to get airborne in the conditions that day.
But "Oor wee Lads" as we loved to call them, considered the 75 knot cross winds as light summer zephyrs. Despite having no visibility in the blizzards and with the clouds stretching from ground level to the ionosphere, they searched the Highlands. There were occasional near misses with cars and trains on some of those tricky bends in the Glens. In fact, one such incident in the Badanloch Forest was credited with sparking off the Home Rule for Scotland movement. They were very determined to return wee Jacky back to his loving mistress and vowed to continue until they did. Two crews had to be ordered back to base after being on task for only 37 hours. It was only a plea from Her Majesty herself that worked in the end. Despite all their constant endeavour and endurance, I never saw my wee green budgie again.
There was a report some three years later that he had been seen in Antigua, where he had acquired a lovely light tan colouring and moved in with two lorikeets and a bald Burmese cat. They had set up an illicit haggis still in the backroom of the local black pudding bar and were enjoying life to the full. Some say that it was the 120 Squadron Detachment to the Caribbean that caused Jacky to break out of his cage and fight the strong South westerlies for almost three months to be with oor wee lads and that once he had tasted the life that they led on tour, he never looked, let alone travelled, back. I expect that I will see more of your newsletters in the future as I have an appointment with dear Dr. Cruickshank the dentist in Forres next month. Speaking of Forres - I think that the cartoonist's depiction of the Forres’ lasses on page 18 was most unkind - some might think it true and accurate - but it was most unkind.
Yours truly
Agnes (Gilly) McGillick

JohnB

[PlasticCabDriver]

Avionker,

This is especially pertinent at the moment considering not one Conservative MP was returned from a seat in Scotland.

Not sure this chap would agree with you!:

David Mundell MP | Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale & Tweeddale

[nocutstoRAF]

Statements I've made were based on the various GERS report, It's been a while since I've looked into this so I'll certainly stand corrected if new figures have been published this year, but i dare say it won't be far off the UK economic trend indicators if they are different. Essentially the unionist parties will use economic statistics for Scotland without, or reduced oil revenue and the SNP will use the statistics with a share of the oil included.

Thanks d88, I suppose the point I was trying to make is that while the Scottish have a legitimate complaint that they are getting less than they pay for and in effect subsidising the UK, this also appears to be true of England (based of the information I quoted), and that collectively Scotland and England are subsiding NI and Wales. So you can see why some English people get a tad annoyed (any annoyance I might feel towards the SNP stems from many years ago when I lived in Scotland and was dating a Scottish lass who friend was a prospective SNP party member who effectively told me that Scottish girls where off limits to me as I was English!)

[foldingwings]

Flame to the Fire!

A lot of folks can't understand how we came to have an oil shortage here in our country.
~~~
Well, there's a very simple answer.
~~~
Nobody bothered to check the oil.
~~~
We just didn't know we were getting low.
~~~
The reason for that is purely geographical.
~~~
Our OIL is located in:
Scotland The North Sea
~~~
Our dipsticks are located in Westminster

Foldie

[Wensleydale]

I was picking up on the point that Scotland is a net producer.

Yes, but the Scottish fishing industry is also in decline.....

[d88]

nocutstoRAF -

That's an interesting point and not one I've thought about but I suppose from a Scottish perspective it's not that we might or might not be subsidising any other part of the UK, it's the annoyance that for decades we were told by successive Westminster governments the Scottish economy was nothing more than an economic basket case when the reality is somewhat different. Successive governments in the 1970's even refused to allow publication of any report that showed Scotland was financially self sufficient.

McCrone report - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As for the comments made to you, you get imbeciles no matter where you go unfortunately, Sam on this thread is typical of comments I'm getting more of when i travel south, so it can work both ways and I'm getting a little tired of being called a sponging Jock But that's not an excuse for your own experience and certainly not one I'd condone and i'm sure the majority of Scots wouldn't either.

[glad rag]

So the tory pm has his arse handed to him at the most important EU summit in decades, shortly after breaking the hearts of his fellow English by denying them the right of a referendum on an already ratified treaty .
So they turn inwards, yet.again.

PMSL

[Hummingfrog]

D88

I think you're basing your assumption on any money Scots have put in to N.I. contribution's (the theoretical basis for eligibility and paying pensions) would be wiped out and declared null and void

I don't think you understand the way pensions are paid and funded. NI contributions don't go into a separate pot - they are included in the general taxation pot - NI is a good wheeze the politicians use to increase income tax while being able to deny they are increasing income tax.

So all the NI contributions being made now by the Scots are funding the state pensions of the Scots now taking a pension. This will carry on post independence so all Scottish state pensions will be paid out of Scottish taxation - there will be no pot due from the separation of Scotland from the UK.

The Service pension issue will be more complicated. The same method of payment is used for all present Service pensions - the taxpayer pays - again there is no pot to share. Post independence one could argue that Service pensioners living in Scotland - i.e. like me even though I am English by birth will be paid by the Scottish taxpayer as they are now. However it is not as simple as the state pension - which every body gets. You could argue that both the Scottish taxpayer and the remaining UK taxpayers should foot the Service pension bill as the distribution of pensioners may not reflect the split in population. This method of funding would only apply to pensioners who retire pre independence. Post independence the country whose Armed Forces you choose to remain with will pay your pension.

Any scheme you have paid into is different as there is a pot to share.

This is only one of the myriad problems facing the politicians who want independence and will have to be answered before the referendum.

HF

[nocutstoRAF]

Thanks d88 - you get idiots everywhere, I will admit to being embarrassed to call myself English at times.

I was surprised that people today in Scotland feel angry over the attitude of the UK government in the 70's re:

That's an interesting point and not one I've thought about but I suppose from a Scottish perspective it's not that we might or might not be subsidising any other part of the UK, it's the annoyance that for decades we were told by successive Westminster governments the Scottish economy was nothing more than an economic basket case when the reality is somewhat different

I cannot talk about other English people, but I do get a little bit annoyed that Alex Salmond paints the picture of independence being an easy and cheap undertaking for Scotland, and while I suspect he genuinely believes it, I think he analysis lacks rigour (for example he is convinced that a large section of the financial services industry in London will relocate to Edinburgh, I believe he said in one interview he thought about half of it would relocate) and that while the UK might still be thought of as a good place to live, dissolving the Union will in the long run harm all the countries in the union – I think financially each member of the union would be worse off, that our global geo-political power will wain and that twenty years from a yes on the referendum in Scotland we will all be reminiscing about the good old days of the UK.

Not that I live in Scotland anymore (and I am not sure how he would stop English people living in Scotland voting in the referendum), but if I did vote I would need a much more detailed plan than the one currently floating around to convince me that Scottish independence was a viable long term plan for Scotland – rather than a short term sticking plaster to address perceptions of inherent unfairness with Scotland’s relationship with Westminster.

[Hummingfrog]

nocutstoRAF

(and I am not sure how he would stop English people living in Scotland voting in the referendum

Everybody who is on the electoral roll in Scotland will be eligible to vote in the referendum, their country of birth will be irrelevant. It can't be any other way as there, at present. is no such thing as a Scottish citizen - we are all UK citizens.

When the SNP loose the referendum Salmond will blame the English born voters and in the tradition of the EU, when a vote doesn't go their way, will call for another referendum for only those who can prove they are 100% Scot - probably a very small number indeed

HF

[Airborne Aircrew]

probably a very small number indeed

Are you implying that 50% of the population have probably had a bit of English in them at one time or another?

[airpolice]

probably had a bit of English in them at one time or another?

I'm sure I know which bit you mean, but the 50% figure is a bit high given how rough some of the weegie womenfolk are.

[glad rag]

I'm sure I know which bit you mean, but the 50% figure is a bit high given how rough some of the weegie womenfolk are.

Not a problem when the "roles" were reversed in Nottingham, Lincoln, Newcastle, etc,etc

[Tankertrashnav]

Are you implying that 50% of the population have probably had a bit of English in them at one time or another?

Or indeed Irish. When I was a lad at a Catholic primary school in Glasgow the games/gangs etc were split on a Scots v Irish basis. There was huge Irish immigration to the West of Scotland in both world wars. Would Salmond regard their descendants (among whom I include myself) as Scots?

[Echo 5]

British by birth..............Scottish by the grace of God.