Your husband will never be promoted if you wear trousers
I was a gobby girl from Yorkshire, 6ft tall and very loud. I knew I was never going to quite fit in but I hoped that I would still make lifelong friends.
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Romeo,
No, I saw the detail and stand by my comments. The invite was obviously sent on the assumption that the lady's husband was a civilian. Bad research perhaps. The NCO should've realised this and minimised the embarrassment to all by letting the PMC know, and his wife taking a colleague along as a guest. That would be the adult approach with no offence caused all round.
I've been there in those exact circumstances in the past, (apart from my better half being a welfare guru, not a journo). I was not offended, it's the game we are in. I joined up at 16 and went through the ranks, including NCA, before commissioning. For the record I don't regret a day of my long winded crawl through the ranks although obviously time constrains my, ahem, career ceiling. And yes, SFFP, I agree with you and others that it is fine down route or on det. But it takes a special kind of JR to know the time and place to relax things or 'formalise them up.' Luckily the majority of our people have this skill set.
Multi-engine and mixed rank crews are a different matter both in the air and on the ground, but the system works well. No room for rank there, only the right man in whichever seat is key at that point in time. NCA have always been an anomaly in this way.
I mean no offence to seac, although I did think the rapist comment was juvenile to say the least, but the tried and tested messing system is there for a reason. It works. The Americans hugely regret the demise of their similar messing system; it's all but gone and they are worse off for it.
No, I saw the detail and stand by my comments. The invite was obviously sent on the assumption that the lady's husband was a civilian. Bad research perhaps. The NCO should've realised this and minimised the embarrassment to all by letting the PMC know, and his wife taking a colleague along as a guest. That would be the adult approach with no offence caused all round.
I've been there in those exact circumstances in the past, (apart from my better half being a welfare guru, not a journo). I was not offended, it's the game we are in. I joined up at 16 and went through the ranks, including NCA, before commissioning. For the record I don't regret a day of my long winded crawl through the ranks although obviously time constrains my, ahem, career ceiling. And yes, SFFP, I agree with you and others that it is fine down route or on det. But it takes a special kind of JR to know the time and place to relax things or 'formalise them up.' Luckily the majority of our people have this skill set.
Multi-engine and mixed rank crews are a different matter both in the air and on the ground, but the system works well. No room for rank there, only the right man in whichever seat is key at that point in time. NCA have always been an anomaly in this way.
I mean no offence to seac, although I did think the rapist comment was juvenile to say the least, but the tried and tested messing system is there for a reason. It works. The Americans hugely regret the demise of their similar messing system; it's all but gone and they are worse off for it.
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Scuttled, fair comment. By the way I'm with you, more or less, just have no experience of NCA so cannot comment.
ps. There were no OMQ's for JO's when I was in RAFG, so had to live in Wg Cdrs MQ. You can imagine the consternation that caused amongst all my Senior Officer neighbours, particlarly their wives!
ps. There were no OMQ's for JO's when I was in RAFG, so had to live in Wg Cdrs MQ. You can imagine the consternation that caused amongst all my Senior Officer neighbours, particlarly their wives!
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Got to be worth picking up a rusty washing machine from the tip for the front garden for a day or two I would've thought, in those circumstances.
The prostrate Mrs Wing-Commanders could've been used for recussitation training by the RAF Regiment.
The prostrate Mrs Wing-Commanders could've been used for recussitation training by the RAF Regiment.
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Strangely enough I have managed to go off down route with a mixed rank crew for years now with hardly any occurances of the problems you suggest.
As has been mentioned in this thread; a crew down the route is a completely different matter to back at base.
On tankers we often went overseas with a crew chief in the sixth seat. Over in the States, for example, it would all be first name terms. Also, with the crew possibly sharing 3 hotel rooms, one guy would share with the crew chief and no-one thought this was a problem.
Back home, down on the flight line we would revert to "sir" and "chief" once again without any problem or resentment. Seemed pretty simple to us.
Back home, down on the flight line we would revert to "sir" and "chief" once again without any problem or resentment. Seemed pretty simple to us.
Going back to the original thread I would make the following thoughts/observations (I believe that the current word is "take").
Pa joined in 1950 and slowly worked his way up to F/Sargeant. At his attempt to go up to W/Officer he was taken to one side and told that Ma would never be an occifer's wife. Ma told me this some years after he'd retired, she was still angry about it.
Housing. Definately improved as you ascended the ladder. We spent a few years at Gaydon. When the camp closed - long after we left for Sopley in 1966 - the OMQ were sold as private accomodation, the AMQ were sold to the council.
The woman does sound a bit Hyacynth Boucketish but I think that she's broadly right.
Pa joined in 1950 and slowly worked his way up to F/Sargeant. At his attempt to go up to W/Officer he was taken to one side and told that Ma would never be an occifer's wife. Ma told me this some years after he'd retired, she was still angry about it.
Housing. Definately improved as you ascended the ladder. We spent a few years at Gaydon. When the camp closed - long after we left for Sopley in 1966 - the OMQ were sold as private accomodation, the AMQ were sold to the council.
The woman does sound a bit Hyacynth Boucketish but I think that she's broadly right.
TTN
Your post reminds me of a couple of my 'en-route' experiences.
New Year 70/71 u/s in Antigua for 6 days ( wonderful apart from lack of female company!); Flt Lt captain had single room, MEng refused to share with any other NCO, so second Flt Eng' a Flt Sgt refused to share with the ALM, a Sgt,who refused to share with the 'liney' who was either a Cpl or SAC.
Only 2 sharing - yes you've guessed it! Fg Off Nav and Fg Off co-pilot. The latter, fresh out of Sleaford Tech, was a bit of a pompous git ( hope he's lightened up since his famous piano playing and singing son took up with the Dahl girl!) and remarked one day, 'Its not right being in the same hotel as the other ranks' - 'Why not?' says I - 'If one of them became drunk it could be very awkward if we had to order him to bed'. 'Pete' says I,'Normally its the young Fg Off Co' or Nav who gets pissed and has to be carried to bed by an NCO'.
Early '72 young Flt Lt B48N was detachment commander (don't laugh!) in Nairobi when lots of Ascots were collecting pongoes from their annual Kenya exercise.
Due to great timing the East African Trade Fair was on at the same time and hotel rooms were at a premium. No prob' all the Herc and Belfast guys were happy to share. But, having noticed I had a VC10 due, I sent a signal to Upavon, copied to all the Changi Slip stations, stating the problem and please do not bring female crew members ( just loadies and stewards in those days).
You've guessed it again! Mighty 10 arrives and out steps a female loadie.I asked the captain ( 'Are you a real Sqn Ldr or just a VC10 skipper!) had he seen the signal. The obnoxious barsteward replied he had ignored it and didn't I realise that he and his crew would be rejoining the Changi slip at the next stop.
I was saved by the Herc crew who arrived 10 minutes later. A Lyneham wing crew, 5 real Sqn Ldrs plus one NCO, and they said 'Don't worry Brian, we saw your signal and are happy to double up'.
New Year 70/71 u/s in Antigua for 6 days ( wonderful apart from lack of female company!); Flt Lt captain had single room, MEng refused to share with any other NCO, so second Flt Eng' a Flt Sgt refused to share with the ALM, a Sgt,who refused to share with the 'liney' who was either a Cpl or SAC.
Only 2 sharing - yes you've guessed it! Fg Off Nav and Fg Off co-pilot. The latter, fresh out of Sleaford Tech, was a bit of a pompous git ( hope he's lightened up since his famous piano playing and singing son took up with the Dahl girl!) and remarked one day, 'Its not right being in the same hotel as the other ranks' - 'Why not?' says I - 'If one of them became drunk it could be very awkward if we had to order him to bed'. 'Pete' says I,'Normally its the young Fg Off Co' or Nav who gets pissed and has to be carried to bed by an NCO'.
Early '72 young Flt Lt B48N was detachment commander (don't laugh!) in Nairobi when lots of Ascots were collecting pongoes from their annual Kenya exercise.
Due to great timing the East African Trade Fair was on at the same time and hotel rooms were at a premium. No prob' all the Herc and Belfast guys were happy to share. But, having noticed I had a VC10 due, I sent a signal to Upavon, copied to all the Changi Slip stations, stating the problem and please do not bring female crew members ( just loadies and stewards in those days).
You've guessed it again! Mighty 10 arrives and out steps a female loadie.I asked the captain ( 'Are you a real Sqn Ldr or just a VC10 skipper!) had he seen the signal. The obnoxious barsteward replied he had ignored it and didn't I realise that he and his crew would be rejoining the Changi slip at the next stop.
I was saved by the Herc crew who arrived 10 minutes later. A Lyneham wing crew, 5 real Sqn Ldrs plus one NCO, and they said 'Don't worry Brian, we saw your signal and are happy to double up'.
Last edited by Brian 48nav; 13th Oct 2011 at 10:19. Reason: One word not needed
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Brian 48nav, so, 1972, that would have been adjacent to my story of the nav who was duffed up and then got his revenge. Can you verify?
TTN
I bet it was the AEO that doubled up with the CC. Doubling up was sensible as it freed up a whole lot of drinking tickets.
Don't know the period but I guess you referred to Mk1s. Later, on 8, in the 80s some called the CC at home by name rather than Chief probably because Shack crew chiefs were sgts and not chiefs. The OC at the time issued an edict (he was always issuing edict which, as a consequence were largely ignored) that we were to call them sgt, cpl or whatever. We asked one chief what he preferred, Chief or Ben? He said if you use my name it shows you know me. If you use my rank you either have good eyesight or are guessing.
And down route? Quite the norm for a flt lt to serve a full fry breakfast to all the SLF lounging about the floor of the dreaded beast.
TTN
Over in the States, for example, it would all be first name terms. Also, with the crew possibly sharing 3 hotel rooms, one guy would share with the crew chief and no-one thought this was a problem.
Back home, down on the flight line we would revert to "sir" and "chief" once again without any problem or resentment.
Back home, down on the flight line we would revert to "sir" and "chief" once again without any problem or resentment.
Don't know the period but I guess you referred to Mk1s. Later, on 8, in the 80s some called the CC at home by name rather than Chief probably because Shack crew chiefs were sgts and not chiefs. The OC at the time issued an edict (he was always issuing edict which, as a consequence were largely ignored) that we were to call them sgt, cpl or whatever. We asked one chief what he preferred, Chief or Ben? He said if you use my name it shows you know me. If you use my rank you either have good eyesight or are guessing.
And down route? Quite the norm for a flt lt to serve a full fry breakfast to all the SLF lounging about the floor of the dreaded beast.
PN
Have you deleted your duffed-up story?
Found it now - I was looking at the wrong thread.
Not heard that story, certainly not me. But I have to confess I was laid out in the bar at Sharjah in Jan' 70, by a training Captain I had been taking the mickey out of ( terrible English) - or so I was told - I was too pissed to remember or feel anything! I've never touched spirits since.
Sadly,Tony B the captain,died in the Herc crash at Colerne in Sept' '73.
Found it now - I was looking at the wrong thread.
Not heard that story, certainly not me. But I have to confess I was laid out in the bar at Sharjah in Jan' 70, by a training Captain I had been taking the mickey out of ( terrible English) - or so I was told - I was too pissed to remember or feel anything! I've never touched spirits since.
Sadly,Tony B the captain,died in the Herc crash at Colerne in Sept' '73.
Last edited by Brian 48nav; 13th Oct 2011 at 10:58. Reason: More to add
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On tankers we often went overseas with a crew chief in the sixth seat. Over in the States, for example, it would all be first name terms. Also, with the crew possibly sharing 3 hotel rooms, one guy would share with the crew chief and no-one thought this was a problem. Back home, down on the flight line we would revert to "sir" and "chief" once again without any problem or resentment. Seemed pretty simple to us.
...and it often depended on who else was in earshot.
It was the same with ex colleagues who had been elevated to Hofficer status - just use rank it saves any embarrasment.
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As SNCO I saw this from a number of perspectives, in Goose Bay my immediate boss the Staish invited me to his parties in his OMQ with the unit officers. It was first name terms at his house and sir etc back at work.
In 2005 when I was posted to HQSTC my civilian wife decided she'd like to join the STC book club. She'd previously set up and run the Waddington book club, which was open to all ranks including spouses. So at STC she phones up the book club leader, whose first question is what rank is your husband and what does he do. My wife answered I was a Sgt and I worked in Plans, the shutters came down immediately with a sorry we are full. The fact the wife had 2 degrees, was a paediatric specialist, articulate and intelligent didn't matter. The fact that between us we earned a lot, that I drove a shiny sports car to 1 site everyday and we owned a 3 bed detached in a nearby village didn't count, I wore the wrong rank slide and that wasn't good enough for the Senior officers wifes in the STC book club which met in the Officers Mess.
So my wife went on to run the village pre-school, where we met a number of officers, SNCOs and airmen who we socialised with, along with a host of civies including the MD of Dreams and the partner in a top 5 law firm, who were all lovely and didn't judge us on the rank slide I wore.
I've also seen inverted snobbery from the wifes of airmen bitching about the wife of Sqn Ldr Blah for no good reason. We didn't have any time for them either.
Out in Civie street I just don't see it, I live on a street with a number of RAF and ex-RAF, we all get on and have laugh and a drink on occasion, which is the way it should be. Finally at work we have long long retired Army Major who insists on being addressed as Major, everyone thinks he's a complete cock, don't do it guys.
In 2005 when I was posted to HQSTC my civilian wife decided she'd like to join the STC book club. She'd previously set up and run the Waddington book club, which was open to all ranks including spouses. So at STC she phones up the book club leader, whose first question is what rank is your husband and what does he do. My wife answered I was a Sgt and I worked in Plans, the shutters came down immediately with a sorry we are full. The fact the wife had 2 degrees, was a paediatric specialist, articulate and intelligent didn't matter. The fact that between us we earned a lot, that I drove a shiny sports car to 1 site everyday and we owned a 3 bed detached in a nearby village didn't count, I wore the wrong rank slide and that wasn't good enough for the Senior officers wifes in the STC book club which met in the Officers Mess.
So my wife went on to run the village pre-school, where we met a number of officers, SNCOs and airmen who we socialised with, along with a host of civies including the MD of Dreams and the partner in a top 5 law firm, who were all lovely and didn't judge us on the rank slide I wore.
I've also seen inverted snobbery from the wifes of airmen bitching about the wife of Sqn Ldr Blah for no good reason. We didn't have any time for them either.
Out in Civie street I just don't see it, I live on a street with a number of RAF and ex-RAF, we all get on and have laugh and a drink on occasion, which is the way it should be. Finally at work we have long long retired Army Major who insists on being addressed as Major, everyone thinks he's a complete cock, don't do it guys.
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Not "In" any more
The Boss of the first (and quite small) firm for which I worked after leaving the Air Force was a recently retired Air Vice Marshal. far above my (former) status. Knowing his exalted position, I naturally called him "Sir", to which he replied that we were both "Out" now and first names were the order of the day. He was very good to work with he was the Boss and I was his No.2, with a pretty free hand.
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Never had a problem. I recall an incident where our Gp Capt escort officer had a injured foot and was hobbling around with a walking stick. He was conversing with a rather attractive lady at the bar and invited her to dance. He was whistling her around the dance floor sans stick completely oblivious of his injury. One of our stewards picked up the stick from by the bar, shouted, 'It's a miracle, it's and miracle' and promptly threw said stick into the swimming pool. I suggested the following morning that he should apologise to said gentleman. No repercussions, and indeed years later I reminded the Gp Capt of this incident and he said that he did in fact find it mildly amusing.
I also have experience of social intermingling between aircrew and groundcrew on Shack detachments where we all knew where to draw the line between a shared pint or two and "business as usual" next morning. I don't however recall having to apologise for a joke or some inter rank banter from the previous evening.
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inter rank banter from the previous evening.
And yes, next day the formalities of Service life prevailed.
I agree Shack, in that instant an apology was not really called for.
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adminblunty - as the wife of a 'mere' Sergeant, your wife was not - in the Air Force's eyes - entitled to read books!
I recall a friend who had recently been promoted to MACR commenting to the boss one day how delighted he was that since his promotion he and his wife were permitted to read books and drink sherry. Barrack Stores had been round to his quarter earlier to deliver the additional MQ inventory items to which he was now entitled: a bookcase and six sherry glasses.
I recall a friend who had recently been promoted to MACR commenting to the boss one day how delighted he was that since his promotion he and his wife were permitted to read books and drink sherry. Barrack Stores had been round to his quarter earlier to deliver the additional MQ inventory items to which he was now entitled: a bookcase and six sherry glasses.
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how delighted he was that since his promotion he and his wife were permitted to read books and drink sherry
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I recall a friend who had recently been promoted to MACR commenting to the boss one day how delighted he was that since his promotion he and his wife were permitted to read books and drink sherry. Barrack Stores had been round to his quarter earlier to deliver the additional MQ inventory items to which he was now entitled: a bookcase and six sherry glasses.
Reading between the lines, it seems to me that you did indeed "have a problem" by the very fact you "suggested" that the steward apologise for what was in fact a very amusing comment/action which caused no harm to anyone. This is obviously explained by one being a gentleman and t'other being a steward.
ing which he didn't.
I suppose this would be a reasonable interlude to ask this, and I promise I'm not taking the piss.
What exactly is the purpose of having a differentiation between officers and other ranks? I've read the official explanation about management responsibility and so forth, but it seems rather arbitrary and class-conscious in a society where that distinction hasn't existed in civilian life for decades, at least at any level more than you get in any professional organisation.
A lot of what's in that story seems a little ungenerous of the writer, and even I know only about the RAF to realise there aren't any colonels in it, for instance. But some of it does bring to mind some of the things I've noticed.
Surely all this division is just... well... divisive?
P
What exactly is the purpose of having a differentiation between officers and other ranks? I've read the official explanation about management responsibility and so forth, but it seems rather arbitrary and class-conscious in a society where that distinction hasn't existed in civilian life for decades, at least at any level more than you get in any professional organisation.
A lot of what's in that story seems a little ungenerous of the writer, and even I know only about the RAF to realise there aren't any colonels in it, for instance. But some of it does bring to mind some of the things I've noticed.
Surely all this division is just... well... divisive?
P