PVRs started.....
Join Date: Jul 2005
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high spirits,
Sorry mate, you are wrong. Manning don't make people redundant. They may be the focal point for the information, but it is not the drafters/manners that do the sacking. To say that they represent the RAF is, in my opinion, simply lazy. Manning has NO influence over the number of personnel required to complete fg trg - or any other job for that reason. Manning make enough mistakes in the job that they are expected to do - putting the right person in the right job at the right time (or somesuch bolleaux) - without getting the grif for stuff that is beyond their control.
Duncs
Sorry mate, you are wrong. Manning don't make people redundant. They may be the focal point for the information, but it is not the drafters/manners that do the sacking. To say that they represent the RAF is, in my opinion, simply lazy. Manning has NO influence over the number of personnel required to complete fg trg - or any other job for that reason. Manning make enough mistakes in the job that they are expected to do - putting the right person in the right job at the right time (or somesuch bolleaux) - without getting the grif for stuff that is beyond their control.
Duncs
Duncan, High Spirits, sorry but I think you are both wrong! Manning does have some influence over numbers, albeit indirectly. And HS, your sweeping generalisation about the deskies is unreasonable and unwarranted. If your perception is driven by the way some of the training pipeline people have been treated, I think you will find that the Manning team has been trying to make the best of a bad job - they won't necessarily have got it completely right. There is never a perfect solution where people are concerned, and - to return to the thread - something as simple as a PVR can set ripples through a manning plan that can take a long time to resolve. My own opinion stems from time spent as a desk officer, but I had much more information and support then at my disposal than Manning has today - reductions in staff and the imposition of JPA has seen to that. Manning jobs are not as easy as you might think. Perhaps HS should give it a go and show us how it should be done?
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Fortissimo,
If we are at a high rate of PVR (as some suggest)during the worst economic period since the late 1920s then we are bang in trouble. The desk officers are the human interface. Their collective failure to do a competent job over the years is the reason we are in this mess. That is what you get when you post an untrained person into a HR environment. You are right about something. I could not do the job as I am a pilot, not a deskie. That is why I would not volunteer to do a job that affects other peoples lives without any formal training...
If we are at a high rate of PVR (as some suggest)during the worst economic period since the late 1920s then we are bang in trouble. The desk officers are the human interface. Their collective failure to do a competent job over the years is the reason we are in this mess. That is what you get when you post an untrained person into a HR environment. You are right about something. I could not do the job as I am a pilot, not a deskie. That is why I would not volunteer to do a job that affects other peoples lives without any formal training...
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No, this is what you get when you cut CEA, reduce crews on the frontline without reducing the tasking, provide insufficient training, threaten your personnel with significant pay cuts, changes to pensions and effectively show f*ck all loyalty towards your people whilst expecting them, time after time, to give 100% whilst receiving very little back in return.
The civvie market pays handsomely for such motivation, it appears as if that is now becoming apparent. The poster is an easy target. The real responsibility for failure sits right at the top.
The civvie market pays handsomely for such motivation, it appears as if that is now becoming apparent. The poster is an easy target. The real responsibility for failure sits right at the top.
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Interesting that the ORs are looked after by PStaffs and the Officers aren't, I think they are looked after by officers from within their own branch- one imagines that this a deliberate policy to develop the whole officer who is destined for higher/better things- by which I mean having to be aware that there is more to life than just a single role. Anyone know if the top echelons of the RAF have done desk jobs in the past?
Of course, the ORs are just numbers not people so they don't count.
Of course, the ORs are just numbers not people so they don't count.
this is what you get when you cut CEA, reduce crews on the frontline without reducing the tasking, provide insufficient training, threaten your personnel with significant pay cuts, changes to pensions and effectively show f*ck all loyalty towards your people whilst expecting them, time after time, to give 100% whilst receiving very little back in return
LJ
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How long until we see the PVR waiting time increased to the maximum 18 months?
Surely increasing it once has shown 'mannings hand'.... I'm guessing we'll now see a surge of applications as people want to get theirs in before it goes up again.
Nice work
I'm looking forward to AMP Briefing Team's visit next month!
Surely increasing it once has shown 'mannings hand'.... I'm guessing we'll now see a surge of applications as people want to get theirs in before it goes up again.
Nice work
I'm looking forward to AMP Briefing Team's visit next month!
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HS,
No, I'm not a poster. But I do know what they do and that's not what most people think that they are supposed to do. By the time a PVR has got to the deskie, it's too late. It is (IMHO) the chain of command that should have determined why Bloggsy is pissed off enough to hit the button and tried to determine what could be done to change Bloggsy's mind - if that was possible; unlikely in the current climate, I think. By the time the detail has got to the deskie the only thing left to do is to determine the exit date; and if he can do another OOA before he leaves!
Duncs
No, I'm not a poster. But I do know what they do and that's not what most people think that they are supposed to do. By the time a PVR has got to the deskie, it's too late. It is (IMHO) the chain of command that should have determined why Bloggsy is pissed off enough to hit the button and tried to determine what could be done to change Bloggsy's mind - if that was possible; unlikely in the current climate, I think. By the time the detail has got to the deskie the only thing left to do is to determine the exit date; and if he can do another OOA before he leaves!
Duncs
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Duncs,
If it sounds like I'm gloating about the position of the deskies then that's incorrect. However, I still think that posting a pilot whose star is on the rise, to be a deskie for 2 years, in direct competition with his mates, is a bit @rse, and a conflict of interests. I'm unsure that a professional HR trained muppet would do much better, but we persist with the present system of 'you kiss my arse, and staff college is on'.
This outdated attitude is doing nothing to stem the flow of PVRs...
If it sounds like I'm gloating about the position of the deskies then that's incorrect. However, I still think that posting a pilot whose star is on the rise, to be a deskie for 2 years, in direct competition with his mates, is a bit @rse, and a conflict of interests. I'm unsure that a professional HR trained muppet would do much better, but we persist with the present system of 'you kiss my arse, and staff college is on'.
This outdated attitude is doing nothing to stem the flow of PVRs...
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Here's the list of things that has got me ordering a pension prediction from SPVA to start considering my options (in no particular order, I might add):
1. Promotion flat as fart
2. Command tours on the decline
3. 2 year pay freeze (whilst others are getting rises or bonuses)
4. Tightening of CEA that forces you to move even when you don't need to
5. Loss of the ability to roll over 15 days leave each year
6. Lack of SFA close to where I work (90 minutes is not close!)
7. Loss of service in Officers' Mess with CRL
8. Loss of Incidental Expense Allowance
9. Wind back of Home To Duty (especially when they can't give you a quarter near your place of work)
10. Inability to serve INVOLSEP in London
11. Future Project SIRIUS and the "haves" and "have nots"
12. JPA and having to spend hours receipting everything (bring back flat rates - win some, lose some)
13. 20-odd pence a mile mileage allowance that only just covers petrol (nothing for the extra insurance premium now required or the wear and tear on the car)
14. Lack of MT vehicles or drivers to pick you up without waiting hours/days (especially if being collected at Brize)
15. The pension changes - some very sneaky indeed
16. Decision paralysis in the HQs (hardly surprising given that it is mostly only the hoop snoggers that are getting a look in!)
17. Haddon-Cave and the madness that is developing courtesy of the MAA (FFS, flying is a dangerous game sweetpea!)
18. Inability to man-manage my troops without having to break rules
19. DII - especially, the light side. Why can't we just have PC World laptops and some encryption software?
20. Overstretch (when does overstretch get so bad that it won't ping back into shape? I think we're finding out now)
21. Medical/dental treatment has significantly declined
22. Fitness tests - that bloody bleep test sees more of my guys signed off with tendon issues than 1.5 mile run ever did
23. Waste - mostly to waste o space. If we didn't keep "saving jobs in British industry", as we are so often told, then we might still have an Air Force of 50,000+. Effectively, we have shed Forces jobs to prop up jobs in influential MPs constituencies
24. The same people doing the same ops - I reckon 20% of the RAF do the RAF's deployments
25. Getting lump sums and pensions if I leave and nothing if I stay
So, after 22 years of decline my loyalty to Queen and Country is as strong as ever, but my head is telling me "enough is enough".
CPL Clott
1. Promotion flat as fart
2. Command tours on the decline
3. 2 year pay freeze (whilst others are getting rises or bonuses)
4. Tightening of CEA that forces you to move even when you don't need to
5. Loss of the ability to roll over 15 days leave each year
6. Lack of SFA close to where I work (90 minutes is not close!)
7. Loss of service in Officers' Mess with CRL
8. Loss of Incidental Expense Allowance
9. Wind back of Home To Duty (especially when they can't give you a quarter near your place of work)
10. Inability to serve INVOLSEP in London
11. Future Project SIRIUS and the "haves" and "have nots"
12. JPA and having to spend hours receipting everything (bring back flat rates - win some, lose some)
13. 20-odd pence a mile mileage allowance that only just covers petrol (nothing for the extra insurance premium now required or the wear and tear on the car)
14. Lack of MT vehicles or drivers to pick you up without waiting hours/days (especially if being collected at Brize)
15. The pension changes - some very sneaky indeed
16. Decision paralysis in the HQs (hardly surprising given that it is mostly only the hoop snoggers that are getting a look in!)
17. Haddon-Cave and the madness that is developing courtesy of the MAA (FFS, flying is a dangerous game sweetpea!)
18. Inability to man-manage my troops without having to break rules
19. DII - especially, the light side. Why can't we just have PC World laptops and some encryption software?
20. Overstretch (when does overstretch get so bad that it won't ping back into shape? I think we're finding out now)
21. Medical/dental treatment has significantly declined
22. Fitness tests - that bloody bleep test sees more of my guys signed off with tendon issues than 1.5 mile run ever did
23. Waste - mostly to waste o space. If we didn't keep "saving jobs in British industry", as we are so often told, then we might still have an Air Force of 50,000+. Effectively, we have shed Forces jobs to prop up jobs in influential MPs constituencies
24. The same people doing the same ops - I reckon 20% of the RAF do the RAF's deployments
25. Getting lump sums and pensions if I leave and nothing if I stay
So, after 22 years of decline my loyalty to Queen and Country is as strong as ever, but my head is telling me "enough is enough".
CPL Clott
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First of all - huge respect to former colleagues who are still doing their utmost to 'hold the line' in ever worsening conditions.
Probably as good a time as any to jump ship (no pun intended) and look for an airline job. If you fancy the expat life, Air Asia have just ordered 200 (yes two hundred) A320s and are scratching their heads a bit wondering how to crew them - and no, I don't work for Air Asia. Other airlines (in the middle east - and I realise many of you may have had enough of the desert) are in permanent 'recruit' mode.
QATAR have just awarded crews a 17% pay rise, Emirates a similar figure. Once out of UK you can then transfer your mil pension into a QROPS (google it) scheme and watch your fund grow at 15%+ pa tax free rather than at CPI (taxable) with UK plc.
I'm not saying it's paradise out here guys but ask me if I would ever go back and guess what the answer is?
Probably as good a time as any to jump ship (no pun intended) and look for an airline job. If you fancy the expat life, Air Asia have just ordered 200 (yes two hundred) A320s and are scratching their heads a bit wondering how to crew them - and no, I don't work for Air Asia. Other airlines (in the middle east - and I realise many of you may have had enough of the desert) are in permanent 'recruit' mode.
QATAR have just awarded crews a 17% pay rise, Emirates a similar figure. Once out of UK you can then transfer your mil pension into a QROPS (google it) scheme and watch your fund grow at 15%+ pa tax free rather than at CPI (taxable) with UK plc.
I'm not saying it's paradise out here guys but ask me if I would ever go back and guess what the answer is?
