PVRs started.....
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Leon wrote:
Industry is spreading this problem to the armed forces. Nowadays the focus is on meeting the performance measurement criteria instead of being on performing.
Wouldn't happen today in this man's Air Force. The jellyfish at the top would have them under admin action and off to Casework in a flash - no common sense and it's all about "meeting targets" and "performance indicators".
Industry is spreading this problem to the armed forces. Nowadays the focus is on meeting the performance measurement criteria instead of being on performing.
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Civi Job Market
May a long gone Airframe Driver who spent the last 27 years steering with ordinary people down the back add something to your thread. I perhaps ought not to appear as my commisions both reg and reserve are long expired but what I add may be of value to some of you
Five years ago the maximum age in UK for flying was 60, though some airlines retired earlier. The result was much the same, the retirees found work in other airlines for the next five years
Then UK went up to 65 but the French did not. it became problematic to fly over France in case of diversion. Most of my generation found work lower down the scale for a while and when the French were obliged to change to 65 there was more movement
The result of all this is that five years ago there commenced a much reduced incidence of experienced skippers leaving the industry, the effect lasted while we soldiered on masking the supply problem. We are now reaching 65 and on our way again with no probability of a further stay of execution
For the next two or three years there will be an added influence of increased retirements in airlines. It will not last
Five years ago the maximum age in UK for flying was 60, though some airlines retired earlier. The result was much the same, the retirees found work in other airlines for the next five years
Then UK went up to 65 but the French did not. it became problematic to fly over France in case of diversion. Most of my generation found work lower down the scale for a while and when the French were obliged to change to 65 there was more movement
The result of all this is that five years ago there commenced a much reduced incidence of experienced skippers leaving the industry, the effect lasted while we soldiered on masking the supply problem. We are now reaching 65 and on our way again with no probability of a further stay of execution
For the next two or three years there will be an added influence of increased retirements in airlines. It will not last
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Willy Waving
Gentlemen
For God's sake what have we come to? Whoever got precious about ex servicemen posting here with "their" war stories - "dry your tears and jog on Princess". By your rules, we shouldn't give electron-space to those who have described gaining their wings in WW2 etc. Sort yourself out and have the decency to listen, or bu**er off!
By the way - I'm still "in" for another 364 days - just so you know which side of the fence I am on!
For God's sake what have we come to? Whoever got precious about ex servicemen posting here with "their" war stories - "dry your tears and jog on Princess". By your rules, we shouldn't give electron-space to those who have described gaining their wings in WW2 etc. Sort yourself out and have the decency to listen, or bu**er off!
By the way - I'm still "in" for another 364 days - just so you know which side of the fence I am on!
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Can I just say that their is already a forum for the retired amongst us. Its in the misc section called history and nostalgia. No other forum apart from the one already mentioned harps on about the past, so perhaps all you retired lot should post there and leave the "professionals who (currently) fly the non-civilian hardware" to discuss current policies and issues.
Or maybe we should have a forum called the old boys forum.
Or maybe we should have a forum called the old boys forum.
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Those current serving pilots who are basically trying to gag the ex serving pilots can only be doing so for one reason: they don't like what they have to say. It's the internet equivalent of putting your fingers in your ears and going "la-la-la-la-la". Quite pathetic, really. Even if you don't like what someone has to say, you may learn something from it.
And yes, I am currently serving.
And yes, I am currently serving.
Now then, do any of us ever really "retire" with this liability:
258. In addition to members of the reserve air forces who are liable to call-out as described above certain officers and former airmen may be recalled for service in the Royal Air Force. The difference from call-out is that they rejoin the Royal Air Force rather than serve in the reserve air forces (sections 65 - 77 and Chapter 2 of AP3392, Vol. 7). Once recalled, they must serve until released.
259. Liability to be recalled for service. Recall applies to any person not serving in the Royal Navy, the Royal Marines, the Army or the Royal Air Force or the reserve forces who:
a. Holds a commission as an officer, or
b. Has served as an airman, is under the age of 55, has not become an officer and it is not more than 18 years since he was discharged or transferred to the reserve (section 66).
260. The provisions of the 1996 Act do not apply to any person who became an officer or enlisted in the Royal Air Force before that Act came into force. Such personnel remain liable to recall under the Reserve Forces Act 1980 unless they have elected to be subject to the new provisions or have re-enlisted, re-engaged or extended their service after that date (s.66(6)).
261. Personnel recalled may be liable to serve anywhere in the world unless when they were last members of the Royal Air Force they were liable to serve only in the United Kingdom or any part of it.
262. Power to authorise recall for national danger, great emergency or attack on the UK. Her Majesty may make a recall Order, signed by the Secretary of State, when it appears to her that national danger is imminent or that a great emergency has arisen, or in the event of an actual or apprehended attack on the United Kingdom. It does not therefore apply to warlike operations, peacekeeping or humanitarian operations.
a. The making of an order must be reported to each House of Parliament immediately. Parliament must assemble within five days if it would not otherwise met.
b. Anyone recalled is entitled to be released (officers) or discharged (airmen) when his aggregate called-out or recalled amounts to three years in the previous six years, although the three years may be extended to five by order. Anyone may agree to serve beyond the set limit.
263. The 1996 Act sets out detailed provisions concerning the recall of personnel, their acceptance into, release and discharge from, service under a recall order.
from the RAF legal Service website at this link (RAF - Page not found).
The 1996 Reserve Forces Act (Reserve Forces Act 1996)
Gives the following authority for recall:
(1) Her Majesty may make an order authorising the recall under this Part of persons to whom section 66 applies—
(a) if it appears to Her that national danger is imminent or that a great emergency has arisen; or
(b) in the event of an actual or apprehended attack on the United Kingdom.
whereas authority to call out the reserves for:
(1) Her Majesty may make an order authorising the call out under this Part of members of a reserve force—
(a) if it appears to Her that national danger is imminent or that a great emergency has arisen; or
(b) in the event of an actual or apprehended attack on the United Kingdom.
or
(1) The Secretary of State may make an order authorising the calling out of members of a reserve force if it appears to him that warlike operations are in preparation or progress.
or
(1) The Secretary of State may make an order authorising the calling out of members of a reserve force if it appears to him that it is necessary or desirable to use armed forces—
(a) on operations outside the United Kingdom for the protection of life or property;
259. Liability to be recalled for service. Recall applies to any person not serving in the Royal Navy, the Royal Marines, the Army or the Royal Air Force or the reserve forces who:
a. Holds a commission as an officer, or
b. Has served as an airman, is under the age of 55, has not become an officer and it is not more than 18 years since he was discharged or transferred to the reserve (section 66).
260. The provisions of the 1996 Act do not apply to any person who became an officer or enlisted in the Royal Air Force before that Act came into force. Such personnel remain liable to recall under the Reserve Forces Act 1980 unless they have elected to be subject to the new provisions or have re-enlisted, re-engaged or extended their service after that date (s.66(6)).
261. Personnel recalled may be liable to serve anywhere in the world unless when they were last members of the Royal Air Force they were liable to serve only in the United Kingdom or any part of it.
262. Power to authorise recall for national danger, great emergency or attack on the UK. Her Majesty may make a recall Order, signed by the Secretary of State, when it appears to her that national danger is imminent or that a great emergency has arisen, or in the event of an actual or apprehended attack on the United Kingdom. It does not therefore apply to warlike operations, peacekeeping or humanitarian operations.
a. The making of an order must be reported to each House of Parliament immediately. Parliament must assemble within five days if it would not otherwise met.
b. Anyone recalled is entitled to be released (officers) or discharged (airmen) when his aggregate called-out or recalled amounts to three years in the previous six years, although the three years may be extended to five by order. Anyone may agree to serve beyond the set limit.
263. The 1996 Act sets out detailed provisions concerning the recall of personnel, their acceptance into, release and discharge from, service under a recall order.
from the RAF legal Service website at this link (RAF - Page not found).
The 1996 Reserve Forces Act (Reserve Forces Act 1996)
Gives the following authority for recall:
(1) Her Majesty may make an order authorising the recall under this Part of persons to whom section 66 applies—
(a) if it appears to Her that national danger is imminent or that a great emergency has arisen; or
(b) in the event of an actual or apprehended attack on the United Kingdom.
whereas authority to call out the reserves for:
(1) Her Majesty may make an order authorising the call out under this Part of members of a reserve force—
(a) if it appears to Her that national danger is imminent or that a great emergency has arisen; or
(b) in the event of an actual or apprehended attack on the United Kingdom.
or
(1) The Secretary of State may make an order authorising the calling out of members of a reserve force if it appears to him that warlike operations are in preparation or progress.
or
(1) The Secretary of State may make an order authorising the calling out of members of a reserve force if it appears to him that it is necessary or desirable to use armed forces—
(a) on operations outside the United Kingdom for the protection of life or property;
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they don't like what they have to say.
All they can add is "When I" comments. History and Nostalgia people, History and Nostalgia.
Well, Gocatcomplete, if your few weeks on PPRuNe have left you feeling so hot and bothered about comments from retired aircrew, perhaps I should simply stop bothering to help all those who've contacted me with civil pilot licensing queries?
Or is your nickname merely a new nom-de-PPRuNe.....
Or is your nickname merely a new nom-de-PPRuNe.....
I have a PVR question. With a few (but not many) years to run to my 38 point, I see plenty of people recommending that I jump early. The line that's been trotted out here several times before is that "a few extra years' seniority with an airline is worth more than hanging around for the pension."
I can't get that to add up, though. Let's take a Flt Lt not far off my situation. Leaving by PVR at 34, he'll get about a £4k pension at 60 rising to about £9k at 65, with lump sums around £12k and £15k. That's from memory last time I played with the pension calculator at work, mind you.
Staying in until 38 and going for max commutation means he leaves with an immediate £10.5k pension, a £70k lump sum, and a £13.5k pension from 55.
If I quickly add it all up, it means leaving 4 years early loses you £300k in pension rights. Can you really make that up with 4 years' seniority at an airline with the Ts&Cs a new joiner is likely to be given? Are you really markedly less employable at 38 than 34?
Edit: I appreciate that you have to take quality of life etc into account, but I've not yet had my spirit crushed and reckon I could manage a few more years. I might prefer to do something else, but not if it results in an incredible financial hit.
I can't get that to add up, though. Let's take a Flt Lt not far off my situation. Leaving by PVR at 34, he'll get about a £4k pension at 60 rising to about £9k at 65, with lump sums around £12k and £15k. That's from memory last time I played with the pension calculator at work, mind you.
Staying in until 38 and going for max commutation means he leaves with an immediate £10.5k pension, a £70k lump sum, and a £13.5k pension from 55.
If I quickly add it all up, it means leaving 4 years early loses you £300k in pension rights. Can you really make that up with 4 years' seniority at an airline with the Ts&Cs a new joiner is likely to be given? Are you really markedly less employable at 38 than 34?
Edit: I appreciate that you have to take quality of life etc into account, but I've not yet had my spirit crushed and reckon I could manage a few more years. I might prefer to do something else, but not if it results in an incredible financial hit.
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Beagle,
Devils lawyer head on
"Military Aircrew A forum for the professionals who fly the non-civilian hardware, and the backroom boys and girls without whom nothing would leave the ground. Army, Navy and Airforces of the World, all equally welcome here."
You are fast approaching 18,000 posts in here, you are also a civilian so looking at the above entry criteria how do you justify that
Devils lawyer head off
Devils lawyer head on
"Military Aircrew A forum for the professionals who fly the non-civilian hardware, and the backroom boys and girls without whom nothing would leave the ground. Army, Navy and Airforces of the World, all equally welcome here."
You are fast approaching 18,000 posts in here, you are also a civilian so looking at the above entry criteria how do you justify that
Devils lawyer head off
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Leon well done for saying how it is.
I am an engineer , so far am seeing a PVR rate i have never ever seen in my 20 years of service.
Whoever is in charge ******* man up and take some balls as you are ******* it all up for everyone else. I love the RAF i love my job but its ***** like you who messed it all up.
sorry
I am an engineer , so far am seeing a PVR rate i have never ever seen in my 20 years of service.
Whoever is in charge ******* man up and take some balls as you are ******* it all up for everyone else. I love the RAF i love my job but its ***** like you who messed it all up.
sorry
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You're in the wrong forum again Seldomfitforpurpose, try here:
Pregnancy | are my waters leaking?? | Mumsnet Discussion
Pregnancy | are my waters leaking?? | Mumsnet Discussion
Willard Whyte, you might well be right there. With all his years of making tea for the flight crew, I'm sure SffP could be of genuine assistance on Mumsnet....
PVR people, the decision as to whether to stay to an IPP or whether to go early can only be made if the job market is buoyant. There are signs that major airlnes are now beginning to recruit and that ba, for example, are keen to employ ex-military pilots.
I should learn a lot more in 6 weeks time, if anyone is interested.
During a previous airline recruiting surge, the first year's pay rise alone covered a significant portion of the loss of gratuity for a Flt Lt with about 5 years seniority. But that was when airline final salary pensions were still around and just before the LoCo airlines ruined the status of airline professionals. Even so, there were many more non-pecuniary attractions in the service to aid retention than there are today, yet still there were so many pilots leaving that a significant pay rise was the only option to attempt to stem the flow. Due to the inertia of AFPRB recommendations becoming policy, ironically this pay rise was awarded at a time when the RAF was suffering cuts under Options for Change and there wasn't the same need to encourage recruiting or retention.
PVR people, the decision as to whether to stay to an IPP or whether to go early can only be made if the job market is buoyant. There are signs that major airlnes are now beginning to recruit and that ba, for example, are keen to employ ex-military pilots.
I should learn a lot more in 6 weeks time, if anyone is interested.
During a previous airline recruiting surge, the first year's pay rise alone covered a significant portion of the loss of gratuity for a Flt Lt with about 5 years seniority. But that was when airline final salary pensions were still around and just before the LoCo airlines ruined the status of airline professionals. Even so, there were many more non-pecuniary attractions in the service to aid retention than there are today, yet still there were so many pilots leaving that a significant pay rise was the only option to attempt to stem the flow. Due to the inertia of AFPRB recommendations becoming policy, ironically this pay rise was awarded at a time when the RAF was suffering cuts under Options for Change and there wasn't the same need to encourage recruiting or retention.
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Apparently unqualified to post here.
I still wish you all the very best with your future plans.
To avoid thread drift I have posted in Jet Blast. No objections there I trust!
http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/4621...ml#post6668830
To avoid thread drift I have posted in Jet Blast. No objections there I trust!
http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/4621...ml#post6668830
Surely the fact that this is a PVR thread invites "those that have" and "those that are" to advise "those that may" and "those that will" - sorry but that is going involve "those that have left" as well!
Gocat and Sffp, as a serving member I invite those ex-regs, with a reserve liability hanging over their heads and also the older ones that don't, to join us on here. In fact most of their posts make more interesting reading than those that go on like an APU whine!
The B Word
Gocat and Sffp, as a serving member I invite those ex-regs, with a reserve liability hanging over their heads and also the older ones that don't, to join us on here. In fact most of their posts make more interesting reading than those that go on like an APU whine!
The B Word
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Pensions PVR's
Avoiding carefully when I was, nostalgia etc because it seems to annoy
One factor many miss out on when considering pensions is a little known corner of the commutation rules viz;
If you commute some of your pension at retirement point and stash it the widdows pension remains unchanged.
Which do you prefer your widow to have? some of your pension or the same pension and a substantial lump sum in the bank
One factor many miss out on when considering pensions is a little known corner of the commutation rules viz;
If you commute some of your pension at retirement point and stash it the widdows pension remains unchanged.
Which do you prefer your widow to have? some of your pension or the same pension and a substantial lump sum in the bank
5 Forward 4 back
The line that's been trotted out here several times before is that "a few extra years' seniority with an airline is worth more than hanging around for the pension."
Your choice, good luck whatever you decide.
wiggy
(member of the been there, seen it, done it (34/12 point
...then, now 
) club)
Last edited by wiggy; 29th Aug 2011 at 10:36.