It's the bi-annual "Not enough parachuting" article
Champagne anyone...?
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It's the bi-annual "Not enough parachuting" article
Good to see the DT being fed yet more dribble by badly informed Army "sources" about how there isn't enough parachuting going on and that if it doesn't improve immediately they're all going up sticks and move elsewhere.
Some cobblers
I've read the article twice and the only "facts" I can see in it are that a) Brize Norton is in Oxfordshire and b) the weather in the uk can be bad in November. Other than that it is all unmitigated horsesh@t. Think the DT needs to find some better military sources
Some cobblers
I've read the article twice and the only "facts" I can see in it are that a) Brize Norton is in Oxfordshire and b) the weather in the uk can be bad in November. Other than that it is all unmitigated horsesh@t. Think the DT needs to find some better military sources
Hmmm, taking the "Air" out of SAS eh? Wouldn't tell that to 7 Sqn / JSFAW if I were you....Think you'll find the vast majority of jobs are delivered by RW. Yes there remains a need for small scale covert para, but at the expense of what? I have to agree though,it does reek of another "own goal" regarding the Falcons. However, the army do go very quiet when you point at the large number of men they have on civic/display duties.......
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Bearing in mind the SF do already train in other areas (as mentioned in the article), they should perhaps move to training in Fort Bragg, as the quality of training would be superior to what the RAF can offer. Then everyone is a winner (except the AT fleet, when bean counters hear than one if AT's roles has diminished.....Used or not)
Edited to add: I have no beef with the fact that the RAF may not have enough resources to be able to do the training, but am always amazed at certain light blue types who have no understanding whatsoever of why and how the the parachute training is important/enhancing, yet still spout the usual cobblers of how is it not needed in this day and age.
Edited to add: I have no beef with the fact that the RAF may not have enough resources to be able to do the training, but am always amazed at certain light blue types who have no understanding whatsoever of why and how the the parachute training is important/enhancing, yet still spout the usual cobblers of how is it not needed in this day and age.
Last edited by barnstormer1968; 26th Sep 2010 at 09:15.
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From the article it sounds like the "source" is a bloke down the pub, or an overheard conversation in one.
Joining in with the half truths and tripe which are being so poorly reported will only end up with us (RAF/Army) stabing each other in the back.
Joining in with the half truths and tripe which are being so poorly reported will only end up with us (RAF/Army) stabing each other in the back.
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I know of an individual recently placed at short notice on the Para course and job done in 2 weeks of what he states was training second to none. He is in a post so established. The differance between UK and USA apart from climate is that the US has 3 x C17 fully committed to Para role which with weather that can largely be taken for granted does optimise the training potential. If there are individuals who wish the UK SF to subscribe fully to the US system rather then the UK system, there are better ways to staff this then chinese whispers to the daily rag.
I am looking forward to post SDR when self preservation rubbish such as this can be restored to its rightfull place; in the bin. I wonder if the US work on a supervision ratio of 1 on 1 which is how UK DZ operate when training. What UK Defence Plc do is awesome, and operating limitations are a factor of having the elastic stretched to breaking point across the piste.
I am looking forward to post SDR when self preservation rubbish such as this can be restored to its rightfull place; in the bin. I wonder if the US work on a supervision ratio of 1 on 1 which is how UK DZ operate when training. What UK Defence Plc do is awesome, and operating limitations are a factor of having the elastic stretched to breaking point across the piste.
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Barnstormer1968 and the rest of the ill-informed:
For those of you who haven't noticed, the Hercules fleets have been comprehensively neglected over the last decade. The k-models have given tremendous service but is now to all intents and purposes dead or at least it will be post-SDSR. An effective replacement is still some way off.
Meanwhile, the mighty J has been doing the lion's share of the work for many years as the K fleet has progessively declined and is now starting to creak with a resparring programme about to commence which shouldn't have been required until well into the 2020s.
So why the surprise when the RAF and specifically the AT fleets are constantly pushing s**t uphill with such chronic underresourcing. Let us be under no illusion here, the boys and girls who are still left at Lyneham would be happy to decamp to El Centro several times a year and give the army all the para training it can handle but that's just not possible any more. So don't blame the RAF and instead vent your ire on the true villains in MoD and the treasury.
To quote The Right Stuff: "No bucks, no Buck Rogers".
And as for giving the Falcs a hard time, do remember that their day-jobs involve running PTS so that should afford them a certain amount of priority - regardless of whether or not they've got smoke cans strapped to their ankles, they still need to jump fir Christ's sake!
Meanwhile, the mighty J has been doing the lion's share of the work for many years as the K fleet has progessively declined and is now starting to creak with a resparring programme about to commence which shouldn't have been required until well into the 2020s.
So why the surprise when the RAF and specifically the AT fleets are constantly pushing s**t uphill with such chronic underresourcing. Let us be under no illusion here, the boys and girls who are still left at Lyneham would be happy to decamp to El Centro several times a year and give the army all the para training it can handle but that's just not possible any more. So don't blame the RAF and instead vent your ire on the true villains in MoD and the treasury.
To quote The Right Stuff: "No bucks, no Buck Rogers".
And as for giving the Falcs a hard time, do remember that their day-jobs involve running PTS so that should afford them a certain amount of priority - regardless of whether or not they've got smoke cans strapped to their ankles, they still need to jump fir Christ's sake!
And as for giving the Falcs a hard time, do remember that their day-jobs involve running PTS so that should afford them a certain amount of priority - regardless of whether or not they've got smoke cans strapped to their ankles, they still need to jump fir Christ's sake!
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Red Devils are funded by Sponsorship, not the MOD! They have their own A/C paid for by Sponsorship. They do not have the luxury of a C 130 outside PTS hangar or provisions of such MOD funded exercise's like ACE in the states to go and train which I believe the article is referring to.
If true and the RAF are sending their display team to the very place Hereford soldiers should be training then the person making these decision needs a good talking to.
ACE is run in the ideal environment to train SF soldiers, its similar to the type of places they will conduct operations.
Its a. Air consentration Ex, so why not wait and send them at the same time.
If true and the RAF are sending their display team to the very place Hereford soldiers should be training then the person making these decision needs a good talking to.
ACE is run in the ideal environment to train SF soldiers, its similar to the type of places they will conduct operations.
Its a. Air consentration Ex, so why not wait and send them at the same time.
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Can't the SAS just tag along with the Falcons?
They can do their jumps in he States as well then
Reds used to jump in Cyprus at the club at Dekahlia IIRC for summer training
The guy who ran the military side in 94 when I did a course was an ex Red detached to run it from 2 Para
They can do their jumps in he States as well then
Reds used to jump in Cyprus at the club at Dekahlia IIRC for summer training
The guy who ran the military side in 94 when I did a course was an ex Red detached to run it from 2 Para
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What some people need to remember is the additional fact that teams like the Red Devils, the Falcons, the White Helmets, the Blue Eagles AND the Sparrows all act as excellent recruiting tools. If the MoD doesn't pay for them all the better.
And right at the moment we need all the recruitment we can get.
And right at the moment we need all the recruitment we can get.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Thomas Harding still has a hard on about the RAF and having to walk to the air terminal at Brize just like a Sun reporter. I see that Con Coughlin has had his Typhoon trip but I don't think they rescheduled Tom's since they withheld the offer 3 years ago after his bitching about Brize.
Last edited by Pontius Navigator; 26th Sep 2010 at 16:17.
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That's the party line for the red arrows as well.
End of the day if a method of entry is being effected because the RAF cannot deliver the good, it leaves options for Operational infill limited.
I could imagine a squadron on ops in the planing stage for a PAF "hands up who is qualified to jump" and only two troopers stick their mitts up.
Its all well and good needing these display teams for recruitment, but in the same breath would it not put off a potential recruit when they read there is no guarantee you will get the full training to do the job required.
Just because the RAF are prioritising resources for the RAF publicity machine to drop in to a football stadium.
That was not the reason the RAF Parachute training school was set up at Ringway all those years ago, was it!
I dont see a mention of a display team in that speech
End of the day if a method of entry is being effected because the RAF cannot deliver the good, it leaves options for Operational infill limited.
I could imagine a squadron on ops in the planing stage for a PAF "hands up who is qualified to jump" and only two troopers stick their mitts up.
Its all well and good needing these display teams for recruitment, but in the same breath would it not put off a potential recruit when they read there is no guarantee you will get the full training to do the job required.
Just because the RAF are prioritising resources for the RAF publicity machine to drop in to a football stadium.
That was not the reason the RAF Parachute training school was set up at Ringway all those years ago, was it!
We ought to have a corps of at least 5000 parachute troops.....I hear something is being done already to form such a corps but only, I believe, on a very small scale. Advantage must be taken of the summer to train these troops......."
Winston Churchill April 1940.
Winston Churchill April 1940.
Below the Glidepath - not correcting
Quick decode of the article for those not trained in Special Ops jargon:
"Officers are furious" - My mate Rupert
"the SAS says" - bloke in a pub in Hereford
"a special forces source." - bloke in a pub in Hereford who's seen Credenhill on a sign
"said an Army source." - Rupert's mate
"A senior officer in the Parachute Regiment" - Rupert's mate's mate in Aldershot
"Officers are furious" - My mate Rupert
"the SAS says" - bloke in a pub in Hereford
"a special forces source." - bloke in a pub in Hereford who's seen Credenhill on a sign
"said an Army source." - Rupert's mate
"A senior officer in the Parachute Regiment" - Rupert's mate's mate in Aldershot
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As said on another thread, don't worry RAF you are all for the chop soon anyway.
Then we will get a proper PTS-type training organisation - one that tells it's SNCOs and JNCOs what they are about to do for the rest of the day unlike the officer vs staff vs students mincing/command that goes on in the hangar at BZN today.
G
Then we will get a proper PTS-type training organisation - one that tells it's SNCOs and JNCOs what they are about to do for the rest of the day unlike the officer vs staff vs students mincing/command that goes on in the hangar at BZN today.
G
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Maybe none of you guys have been reading the NOTAMs lately. Perhaps this is just top brass embarrassed reaction to the DT coverage but there's a whole host of HAHO and more conventional PJE exercises notified in many parts of the UK over the last couple of weeks, so it would seem the SAS is not short of jump training.
NS
NS
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Father Jack
You may find I am quite well informed after all, and maybe that is why I had " I have no beef with the fact that the RAF may not have enough resources to be able to do the training," in my post, as I am very aware of the state of the Herc fleet. I am also aware that the USAF has plenty of airframes to train our little Brit gaggle, plus nice weather, and plenty of experience.
So, bearing in mind: I know the K fleet is just about non existent, the J fleet is very busy, Our weather can often be poor, the USAF have airframes ready, they have better weather, they are very good at para training and have masses of experience, Para training is great to boost troops confidence/courage, which can be a battle winner etc etc etc
Feel free to tell me what I have missed, that makes me so uninformed (I take it you know all about the uses and enhancements that para training gives my fellow green brethren too). I have not even restated the part about the possible loss of AT financial support if para training were to go fully to the U.S.
I find it sad that I repeatedly support the RAF, but then still constantly see posts attacking other services, due to some in the RAF feeling a bit insecure!
It is just as silly for someone to say the army are happy with the amount of para training they have, or they would change it! If that were really true, then the RAF would also be happy with the diminishing flying hours aircrew get to train and stay current with (despite constant complaints from aircrew and even from NATO)
Rant over
You may find I am quite well informed after all, and maybe that is why I had " I have no beef with the fact that the RAF may not have enough resources to be able to do the training," in my post, as I am very aware of the state of the Herc fleet. I am also aware that the USAF has plenty of airframes to train our little Brit gaggle, plus nice weather, and plenty of experience.
So, bearing in mind: I know the K fleet is just about non existent, the J fleet is very busy, Our weather can often be poor, the USAF have airframes ready, they have better weather, they are very good at para training and have masses of experience, Para training is great to boost troops confidence/courage, which can be a battle winner etc etc etc
Feel free to tell me what I have missed, that makes me so uninformed (I take it you know all about the uses and enhancements that para training gives my fellow green brethren too). I have not even restated the part about the possible loss of AT financial support if para training were to go fully to the U.S.
I find it sad that I repeatedly support the RAF, but then still constantly see posts attacking other services, due to some in the RAF feeling a bit insecure!
It is just as silly for someone to say the army are happy with the amount of para training they have, or they would change it! If that were really true, then the RAF would also be happy with the diminishing flying hours aircrew get to train and stay current with (despite constant complaints from aircrew and even from NATO)
Rant over