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F-35 Cancelled, then what ?

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F-35 Cancelled, then what ?

Old 3rd Apr 2013, 18:20
  #1601 (permalink)  
 
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Courtney, when did I become WhiteOlives??

As for the shredders...Security is not a dirty word...

I seem to recall Boeing pushing the Silent Eagle concept in the Asian direction, particularly on the back of the US rejection of a Japanese F-22 buy, although surely with a view to South Korea also. Although that concept gives up all the conformal fuel tank space to weapons, so the range is going to be poor by some comparisons. Not that SK needs much range heading North, particularly if the DPRK forces are heading south
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Old 3rd Apr 2013, 18:29
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Oops. Er, um, I was talking to WhiteOlives, not you. You know him, nice bloke, big moustache, lovely wife.

Anyway, you're right about the Silent Eagle (oh, Slam Eagle) project. I also think the F-35 buy was suggested by the Americans on the grounds that their lack of EW support assets indicated its need. One could argue that F-35 would be at its best WITH all the electronic support assets. Maybe I'm getting ahead of myself.
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Old 3rd Apr 2013, 18:39
  #1603 (permalink)  
 
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A CURLy one

For 'PhilipG' and 'Rulebreaker': A few big ticket items [FMS in a building + reprogram centre building at least with costs] are included in the F-35 bid including other items for the use of. ACURL info for Oz/UK/other (CanUK?) reprogam centre cost below Korean info. The FMS cost may be somewhere else inferred from US costs lumped together.

Korea – F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Aircraft 03 Apr 2013
http://www.dsca.mil/pressreleases/36...orea_13-10.pdf (109Kb)

Quote:
"WASHINGTON, April 3, 2013 – The Defense Security Cooperation Agency notified Congress March 29 of a possible Foreign Military Sale to the Government of Korea for 60 F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Conventional Take Off and Landing (CTOL) aircraft and associated equipment, parts, training and logistical support for an estimated cost of $10.8 billion.

The Government of the Republic of Korea has requested a possible sale of (60) F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Conventional Take Off and Landing (CTOL) aircraft. Aircraft will be configured with the Pratt & Whitney F-135 engines, and (9) Pratt & Whitney F-135 engines are included as spares. Other aircraft equipment includes: Electronic Warfare Systems; Command, Control, Communication, Computer and Intelligence/Communication, Navigational and Identification (C4I/CNI); Autonomic Logistics Global Support System (ALGS); Autonomic Logistics Information System (ALIS); Full Mission Trainer; Weapons Employment Capability, and other Subsystems, Features, and Capabilities; F-35 unique infrared flares; reprogramming center; F-35 Performance Based Logistics. Also included: software development/integration, aircraft ferry and tanker support, support equipment, tools and test equipment, communication equipment, spares and repair parts, personnel training and training equipment, publications and technical documents, U.S. Government and contractor engineering and logistics personnel services, and other related elements of logistics and program support. The estimated cost is $10.8 billion...."
______________________

Management of Australia’s Air Combat Capability — F-35A Joint Strike Fighter Acquisition [ACURL = reprogramming center]

http://www.anao.gov.au/~/media/Files...06%20OCRed.pdf (4.7Mb)

Quote:
“...2.63 Mission data reprogramming for Australian, Canadian and United Kingdom F?35 aircraft is to be conducted at a yet-to-be-developed Australia–Canada–United Kingdom Reprogramming Laboratory (ACURL). The ACURL is currently planned to be located at Eglin Air Force Base in Florida, USA, and operated collaboratively by approximately 20 personnel from each of the ACURL partner nations, with the support of approximately 50 US personnel. The ACURL’s acquisition and sustainment costs are to be split equally between the ACURL partner nations.99

99 The United States will operate its own reprogramming laboratory for its own significantly larger F-35 fleets.

2.64 At the time of the audit, the NACC IPT was collaborating with Canada and the UK to develop a Statement of Requirements for the JSF Program Office to design and construct the ACURL. The NACC IPT was also developing a Statement of Requirements for Australian in-country reprogramming for unique capabilities not provided by the ACURL. The remaining elements of the situational-awareness system, such as F-35 sensor suite integration, dis-played data fusion, and development of the Helmet Mounted Display system, remained under close managerial scrutiny by the JSF Program Office....
&
“...4.8 As of 2008, the Partner Reprogramming Laboratory was estimated to cost some US$500 million (then-year dollars), and was scheduled for development between 2009 and 2017. Each partner nation committed US$610,000 as its share of costs for the first two years, with cost shares for remaining years yet to be determined. By June 2012, AIR 6000 spend under the Partner Reprogramming Laboratory Annex was US$620,000.

4.9 The Partner Reprogramming Laboratory for the Commonwealth partner nations (namely the UK, Canada and Australia) is to be known as the Australia–Canada–United Kingdom Reprogramming Laboratory (ACURL). A recent Non Advocate Review by the JSF Program Office has reaffirmed the requirement for reprogramming laboratories, and the JSF Program Office has initiated a design review process that will lead to a refined cost basis. The outcome of this activity, and therefore the final ACURL costs, will not be known until mid-2013. As at August 2012, the latest estimated cost of the ACURL was US$600 million....”

Last edited by SpazSinbad; 3rd Apr 2013 at 18:40. Reason: Formatting - what else
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Old 3rd Apr 2013, 18:52
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Our No 3 has just undertaken it's maiden ...



The third Joint Strike Fighter destined for the United Kingdom has taken its maiden flight.

On the 95th Anniversary of the RAF the F-35 Lightning II, serial XM137, took the first of a series of check flights piloted by Lockheed Martin Test Pilot Alan Norman. On completion of testing the aircraft will be handed to the Ministry of Defence whereupon it will join the first two UK aircraft at Eglin Air Force Base. At the Florida base XM137 join the pool of F-35s being used for pilot training.

The third aircraft is the first production example for the UK, the two currently in service being configured for testing. RAF Squadron Leader Frankie Buchler became the first overseas operational pilot to fly the Lightning II on 19 March.

The fifth-generation fighter aircraft combines stealth technology with fighter performance and will equip both RAF and Fleet Air Arm squadrons. The land base for the UK F-35 fleet of aircraft will be based RAF Marham where the first squadron is expected to arrive in 2018.
Coff.

Source RAF [email protected]
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Old 3rd Apr 2013, 18:52
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Spaz,

Thanks for reposting what we've already read and commenting upon. Perhaps just make whatever point you're after a bit briefly? I really don't get the point and I am interested to hear it.
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Old 3rd Apr 2013, 18:59
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Originally Posted by CoffmanStarter
On the 95th Anniversary of the RAF the F-35 Lightning II, serial XM137, took the first of a series of check flights piloted by Lockheed Martin Test Pilot Alan Norman. On completion of testing the aircraft will be handed to the Ministry of Defence whereupon it will join the first two UK aircraft at Eglin Air Force Base. At the Florida base XM137 join the pool of F-35s being used for pilot training.

The third aircraft is the first production example for the UK, the two currently in service being configured for testing. RAF Squadron Leader Frankie Buchler became the first overseas operational pilot to fly the Lightning II on 19 March.

Confusing with Lightning serials ..... XM137 was a proper Lightning


Last edited by GeeRam; 3rd Apr 2013 at 19:03.
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Old 3rd Apr 2013, 19:01
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I think the point he is making is that Korea would be paying for its own re-programming centre, which are expensive given the cost for the joint UK/Aus/Can effort.

Met WhiteOlives down the pub...his sister is gorgeous!

Coff, ZM137 - I think XM137 was probably a Lightning 1...(GeeRam beat me to it! Do the RAF News also do the tw*tter?? )

The link between ZM135 and XM135 was absolutely deliberate.

Last edited by WhiteOvies; 3rd Apr 2013 at 19:05.
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Old 3rd Apr 2013, 19:09
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Ah, I see. Why not just say that? Thanks for the translation.

His sister's name is Lisa. Quite a honey, eh?

My point isn't so much about what they get for their cash in either deal, it's whether the F-35 is the deal thay need. I know it says they asked to buy it, but the truth is that the US "stongly recommended" it as the solution to their problems. Interested to hear opinions on that.
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Old 3rd Apr 2013, 19:13
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Back in the 1980s, I idly wondered what would happen after we got to ZZ999. Somehow I don't think I'll live to find out.
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Old 3rd Apr 2013, 19:21
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The link between SK and Lockheed is pretty strong with the KAI T-50, which will be rebadged as an LM product for USAF T-X competition. Suspect there is a lot of high level sales effort going in, but as you say it's the 'recommended' solution.

If Singapore buys F-35 as well then politically could SK be seen as a leading regional power without it? China will have the J-31 eventually so SK looks to be a poor relation without a 'stealth' jet. That is a whopping price tag so I suspect it'll come down to the size of their defence budget.
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Old 3rd Apr 2013, 19:55
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SpazSinBad

That's all well and gd but I guess they think they need those faciilities to operate the jet effectively so there included in the price. If the other jets in for the contract needed those things they'd be included in there offerings as well.

It's a much bigger bill than it was ever meant to be and clearly a reason why people are looking again at numbers and if it still does what it says on the tin.
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Old 3rd Apr 2013, 20:12
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Some very good points there, WhiteOlives. Would that mean they'd be buying to be in the club or because it could really serve their defence needs? I guess governments have bought aircraft for worse reasons.

RuleBreaker, your points are well made. It would be good to see what it does say on the tin now. Compared to what it used to say.
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Old 3rd Apr 2013, 20:17
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DSCA notifications can be a bit untrustworthy because even apparently similar deals don't always include the same things, and because AFAIK you have to go back and start again if the negotiated price at the end of all the BAFOs is higher than what DSCA told Congress.

On the other hand it seems that the ROK would get the 3I software package - which would mean another (unstated but no doubt healthy) bill for the 3F upgrade.
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Old 3rd Apr 2013, 20:30
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If you guys think the f-15 price is right, I've got a bridge to sell you
There is no way in hell you can buy 60 f-15 for 2.4b dollars or $40m ea

Last edited by JSFfan; 3rd Apr 2013 at 20:38.
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Old 3rd Apr 2013, 20:34
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Good maths.

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Old 3rd Apr 2013, 20:39
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klmnop, the maths ok, it's the letter that was wrong, but enjoy
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Old 3rd Apr 2013, 22:23
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JSFfan,
The proposed sale will include 60 Active Electronically Scanned Array Radar (AESA) radar sets, 60 Digital Electronic Warfare Systems (DEWS), 60 AN/AAQ-33 Sniper Targeting Systems, 60 AN/AAS-42 Infrared Search and Track (IRST) Systems, 132 Ultra High Frequency/Very High Frequency (UHF/VHF) secure radio with HAVE QUICK II, 69 Link-16 Terminals and spares, the Advanced Display Core Processor II, Joint Mission Planning System, various support equipment items, GEM-V GPS airborne receiver module, and communication security; software development/integration, spares and repair parts, personnel training and training equipment, publications and technical documents, U.S. Government and contract engineering and logistical personnel services, and other related elements of logistics and program support. The estimated cost is $2.408 billion.
Where have you seen F-15 here?
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Old 3rd Apr 2013, 23:08
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US reveals details of F-15SE, F-35A bids for South Korea

Perhaps this article will answer some questions?

US reveals details of F-15SE, F-35A bids for South Korea
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Old 4th Apr 2013, 01:43
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Yes, the actual F-15SE airframes are not included in the FMS notification price.
Apparently, neither are the engines.

Also not included are all the things that are already in SK to support the F-15s the SKAF (Yes, I know... RoKAF) already has... maintenance facilities, parts, supply chain, test & repair equipment, simulators, training programs, etc.

Yes, there will be some differences for the -SE, but they will be changes to existing support & training infrastructure, not a "blank-sheet program" like the F-35.

NONE of this exists in SK for the F-35, so all of that has to be included in the FMS sale & notification price.

Last edited by GreenKnight121; 4th Apr 2013 at 01:50.
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Old 4th Apr 2013, 04:12
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Something LO conveniently doesn't mention in his...posts but which I'm sure he full well knows is, the F-15 AESA sets mentioned in the DSCA notice will likely extend to just the antennae and a few associated odds & ends.

The F-15K fleet's current APG-63(V)1 radars were delivered with the (V)2 & (V)3 AESA upgrade in mind, and hence have the requisite back-end hardware and associated plumbing & cooling to accommodate the AESA antenna.

As GreenKnight correctly states, the DSCA notice is for the bespoke gear required to bring the ROKAF's current fleet of F-15E-like F-15Ks up to a standard similar to that of the Singaporean SG plus a few additional Saudi SA bits also thrown in. No airframes, no engines, no GSE, no sims, no trainers, no training, no initial support, and only equipment specific tech pubs...

I would guess that both DSCA notices are under consideration by the RoK - it's not an either or, it'll probably be both. They'll upgrade their F-15Ks, AND they'll buy F-35A or B to replace some of their older F-16s.

Last edited by FoxtrotAlpha18; 4th Apr 2013 at 04:27.
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