Soldier refused service in Witney pub . . . because he was in uniform
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Ray - many variations on definitions - I used
which the SIA use - and works for me.
goudie - I believe Aircrew have a different view to those who have spent time as commanders of airmen and women.
premises in respect of which a premises licence or temporary event notice has effect under the Licensing Act 2003 to authorise the supply of alcohol (within the meaning of section 14 of that Act) for consumption on the premises;
goudie - I believe Aircrew have a different view to those who have spent time as commanders of airmen and women.
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I believe Aircrew have a different view to those who have spent time as commanders of airmen and women.
I think you might amend the quote to say that "some of" those etc., because as OC "B" Flight part of my duties were to deputise for the Sqn JENGO and he and his ilk including the Sqn WO were quite human and shared similar views to aircrew. Could it be possible that you are the one out of step.. or is it just the modern way?
lazy fairweather PPRuNer
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well, however you interpret them, I guess the rules is the rules and thats that, for better or for worse.
Douglas Bader said something about them I believe.
Douglas Bader said something about them I believe.
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I doubt I was old enough to drink
I think I respect you and your views and whilst it will not stop me from remembering my days, I sadly concede that they are now mostly irrelevant, or so my middle aged sons tell me!
Back to uniforms in pubs. I suspect that most servicemen would not want to wear it when socialising, but for those who, like BEag's example, find themselves in that situation where it is not inappropriate, the sledge hammer to crack a nut approach of Military authorities seems daft.
Last edited by Romeo Oscar Golf; 22nd Nov 2009 at 15:23. Reason: Having read many of Mr H's previous posts I'm not sure he's for real.
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Mr C Hinecap
Regarding your statement:
"I believe Aircrew have a different view to those who have spent time as commanders of Airmen and women."
It is some considerable time since I retired from the RAF, but on Detatchments on Active Service in the 1960's /70's/ 80's and 90's the Detatchment Commander was - in every case - General Duties Branch.
Regarding your statement:
"I believe Aircrew have a different view to those who have spent time as commanders of Airmen and women."
It is some considerable time since I retired from the RAF, but on Detatchments on Active Service in the 1960's /70's/ 80's and 90's the Detatchment Commander was - in every case - General Duties Branch.
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soldier refused service
I was in a local pub/restaurant at 1745 on Friday evening 20th when in walked a Group Captain in shirt sleeve order, waved to the barman and proceeded to the eating area. Obviously no problem there!!!
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And so you approached him and said to him
"You do realise Sir, that it is forbidden to wear uniform in a Public House"
Or did you skulk away, turn your head and ignore it...? Who is at fault then..????
"You do realise Sir, that it is forbidden to wear uniform in a Public House"
Or did you skulk away, turn your head and ignore it...? Who is at fault then..????
My post that Mr C H quoted seems to have disappeared, do the mods remove posts? I don't think it was offensive or infringed any of the etiquette surrounding posting.
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vecvec
Your #48
Did it escape your notice that Hedfanwr is a 68 yr old Civilian? In addition, it may well be that the Public House also provided B&B and that the Gp Captain was staying there whilst on an Official Visit to Industry etc. An arrangement that I encountered on several occasions during my service.
Your #48
Did it escape your notice that Hedfanwr is a 68 yr old Civilian? In addition, it may well be that the Public House also provided B&B and that the Gp Captain was staying there whilst on an Official Visit to Industry etc. An arrangement that I encountered on several occasions during my service.
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cazatou - you misunderstand me. I don't equate CO with OC - a Det Cdr or Stn Cdr has several levels of management between them and the airmen who are experienced in flight and squadron commanding.
My point is that aircrew generally don't have any experience of day to day management and leadership of non-commissioned personnel. JOCC was a real eye-opener when us blunt types watched the aircrew 'catch up' on report-writing, discipline procedures, charges and interview techniques that we'd used since day 1.
I don't know any aircrew who have had the fear of a Friday morning after hearing the lads got into a 'bit of bother' down town on Thursday night - or that had to deal with the aftermath of a Sqn beercall that went a bit wrong. This is a part of why I see such libertarian views from the aircrew on this thread.
Discipline has taken a dive in recent years as we've got a bit more fluffy. Younger recruits reflect society and behaviour that would never have been tolerated is now the norm - including more drink-related trouble. I'm very much up for having a good time, but self-policing rules on being in pubs in uniform are crazy. The line is drawn at the door and that is where it should remain.
My point is that aircrew generally don't have any experience of day to day management and leadership of non-commissioned personnel. JOCC was a real eye-opener when us blunt types watched the aircrew 'catch up' on report-writing, discipline procedures, charges and interview techniques that we'd used since day 1.
I don't know any aircrew who have had the fear of a Friday morning after hearing the lads got into a 'bit of bother' down town on Thursday night - or that had to deal with the aftermath of a Sqn beercall that went a bit wrong. This is a part of why I see such libertarian views from the aircrew on this thread.
Discipline has taken a dive in recent years as we've got a bit more fluffy. Younger recruits reflect society and behaviour that would never have been tolerated is now the norm - including more drink-related trouble. I'm very much up for having a good time, but self-policing rules on being in pubs in uniform are crazy. The line is drawn at the door and that is where it should remain.
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My point is that aircrew generally don't have any experience of day to day management and leadership of non-commissioned personnel.
I don't know any aircrew who have had the fear of a Friday morning after hearing the lads got into a 'bit of bother' down town on Thursday night - or that had to deal with the aftermath of a Sqn beercall that went a bit wrong. This is a part of why I see such libertarian views from the aircrew on this thread.
I don't know any aircrew who have had the fear of a Friday morning after hearing the lads got into a 'bit of bother' down town on Thursday night - or that had to deal with the aftermath of a Sqn beercall that went a bit wrong. This is a part of why I see such libertarian views from the aircrew on this thread.
It may surprise you to know that quite a few of us 'aircrew' are responsible for junior ranks annual assessments and career development these days.
You either haven't been near a Sqn for some time or you are dangling your ever baited hook again?
My point is that aircrew generally don't have any experience of day to day management and leadership of non-commissioned personnel. JOCC was a real eye-opener when us blunt types watched the aircrew 'catch up' on report-writing, discipline procedures, charges and interview techniques that we'd used since day 1.
I don't know any aircrew who have had the fear of a Friday morning after hearing the lads got into a 'bit of bother' down town on Thursday night - or that had to deal with the aftermath of a Sqn beercall that went a bit wrong. This is a part of why I see such libertarian views from the aircrew on this thread.
Discipline has taken a dive in recent years as we've got a bit more fluffy. Younger recruits reflect society and behaviour that would never have been tolerated is now the norm - including more drink-related trouble. I'm very much up for having a good time, but self-policing rules on being in pubs in uniform are crazy. The line is drawn at the door and that is where it should remain.
I don't know any aircrew who have had the fear of a Friday morning after hearing the lads got into a 'bit of bother' down town on Thursday night - or that had to deal with the aftermath of a Sqn beercall that went a bit wrong. This is a part of why I see such libertarian views from the aircrew on this thread.
Discipline has taken a dive in recent years as we've got a bit more fluffy. Younger recruits reflect society and behaviour that would never have been tolerated is now the norm - including more drink-related trouble. I'm very much up for having a good time, but self-policing rules on being in pubs in uniform are crazy. The line is drawn at the door and that is where it should remain.
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which part mgd - I can back it up.
Wizard - generally because I've only met those in enforced ground tours reporting on anyone. Generally because none of those on my JOCC had ever written a report, heard a charge, conducted an interview or had any leadership of real people on the ground.
Wizard - generally because I've only met those in enforced ground tours reporting on anyone. Generally because none of those on my JOCC had ever written a report, heard a charge, conducted an interview or had any leadership of real people on the ground.
All of it.
That's like me saying ground trades do not understand airpower because they don't fly.
It's a huge assumption based on generalisation. For a normally semi-coherent voice on here, I expected better from you mate.
That's like me saying ground trades do not understand airpower because they don't fly.
It's a huge assumption based on generalisation. For a normally semi-coherent voice on here, I expected better from you mate.
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am I wrong to say that most aircrew never command a flight of airmen or women? I don't think so. Flying sqn cdrs have JENGOs and SENGO to manage most of the troops for them.
Most ground trades don't understand air power per se. Most ground trades (and branches before the new IOT and ICSC) didn't either. Why do you think ICSC was bumped up to 8 wks and most of the HAWC was put into it? We haven't been taught air power doctrine up until that point. There is a sort of understanding of air power, but the real doctrine has only recently been broadcast to the masses.
Most ground trades don't understand air power per se. Most ground trades (and branches before the new IOT and ICSC) didn't either. Why do you think ICSC was bumped up to 8 wks and most of the HAWC was put into it? We haven't been taught air power doctrine up until that point. There is a sort of understanding of air power, but the real doctrine has only recently been broadcast to the masses.
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Speaking as a Ground Trade Type...
I have to say that on the basis of twenty-something years of Service as an airman I agree with Mr Hinecap. Outside of the eng personnel on a typical fg sqn there are generally only a handful of airmen (NCA aside) for the tens of JO Aircrew to have experience of managing, and in many cases these will be 'managed' by Ops Spt officers, particularly the Opsys and Int personnel. These ratios do not lend themselves for the majority of JO Aircrew to actually manage/lead/career develop us enlisted personnel.
There will obviously be exceptions, as TheWizard notes, but this surely isn't the norm for the majority of JO Aircrew. Or was the collective experience of those aircrew types on Mr H's JOCC an anomaly?
He's right about the average ground trade airman's knowledge of Air Power as well. There has been a concerted effort to increase this level of knowledge with lectures/modules now included at RTS, the various courses at ACS and by FDS at station level, but it still has a long way to go; I for one welcome it.
There will obviously be exceptions, as TheWizard notes, but this surely isn't the norm for the majority of JO Aircrew. Or was the collective experience of those aircrew types on Mr H's JOCC an anomaly?
He's right about the average ground trade airman's knowledge of Air Power as well. There has been a concerted effort to increase this level of knowledge with lectures/modules now included at RTS, the various courses at ACS and by FDS at station level, but it still has a long way to go; I for one welcome it.
I'll have to agree with Mr C. Hinecap. Service personnel in uniform and drinking in a public place do not go together. Even in behaviour is checked, it is a red rag to a bull when it comes to public perceptions. Perhaps the hotel in question didn't handle it well, and there are occasions when one does eat in a pub in uniform, but commonsense should previal.
I have been a flight commander, and I have also spent time in Aldershot: both of these experiences support the rule of abstinence in public places. I might add that alcohol on operations should be a no-no; in spite of 'toucan' rules, I have witnesses - and intervened - on several occasions when operational performance has been jepordised by alcohol.
I have been a flight commander, and I have also spent time in Aldershot: both of these experiences support the rule of abstinence in public places. I might add that alcohol on operations should be a no-no; in spite of 'toucan' rules, I have witnesses - and intervened - on several occasions when operational performance has been jepordised by alcohol.
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Not really a thread drift. I was, rather clumsily, trying to show why I thought we had differing views on the same topic. The more peer-orientated world of aircrew produces a different experience and view to that of ground branches who have been flight commanders with day to day responsibilities for airmen and women.