Soldier refused service in Witney pub . . . because he was in uniform
lazy fairweather PPRuNer
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Probably highlightng the difference between leadership and management. Having served on both sides of the fence my opinion is that the ground trades tend to the latter and the air trades to the former, for very good reasons (I stress they are not mutually exclusive nor universal).
Whichever side you fall on, I still believe that commanders should have the autonomy to either allow or disallow the men and women in their charge to go into a pub in uniform if the situation requires it (from either a managers or leaders perspective). The situation this thread relates to is a case in point.
I agree with Mr C on the thread creep, I saw where you were coming from. Nice to see a thread so well argued from all sides with very little degradation into slanging matches.
Whichever side you fall on, I still believe that commanders should have the autonomy to either allow or disallow the men and women in their charge to go into a pub in uniform if the situation requires it (from either a managers or leaders perspective). The situation this thread relates to is a case in point.
I agree with Mr C on the thread creep, I saw where you were coming from. Nice to see a thread so well argued from all sides with very little degradation into slanging matches.
Thread Starter
Whichever side you fall on, I still believe that commanders should have the autonomy to either allow or disallow the men and women in their charge to go into a pub in uniform if the situation requires it (from either a managers or leaders perspective). The situation this thread relates to is a case in point.
The sort of person trusted to run a recruiting session in the middle of a market town is, I would strongly suggest, quite capable of being trusted to have a quiet pie-and-pint (
) lunch between recruiting sessions.As for those who might think that inappropriate consumption of alcohol is a 'junior ranks' issue - well, you should have been in supposedly 'dry' Saudi Arabia in 1990-91 during GW1. Some of the worst offenders were amongst those of the highest ranks in theatre........
Although the expression of shock and horror on the faces of the French DC-8 Sarigue crew when told the answer to their question about the location of the hotel bar was, I have to say, utterly priceless!
Thread Starter
More from this week's Witney Gazette:
There's an Oxfam shop close to the Cross Keys, so perhaps next time....
One wonders whether the pub would serve someone dressed as, say, a Star Trek character - or as an SS-Obersturmbannfuhrer ?
RAF Brize Norton has admitted it may have contacted pubs in West Oxfordshire in the past to tell them not to serve soldiers in uniform.
Pubs in both Carterton and Witney have claimed they have had orders from the nearby RAF base, but until now, the base has denied making contact.
However, a spokesman for the base said that, although there had been no official communication between pubs and the base, an officer, who had now left, might have spoken to landlords asking them not to serve personnel.
Last week, Guardsman Brad Thomas and fellow Grenadier Guard Jimmy Nuttal were working for an Army recruitment team when they stopped for lunch at the Cross Keys pub, in Market Street, Witney.
But as they looked at the menu, they were told to leave because the pub would not serve members of the Armed Forces wearing uniform.
Steve Kemp, of Manor Road, Carterton, said he had witnessed a similar incident at the Beehive, in Black Bourton Road, Carterton, a few months ago.
He said that up to 15 soldiers in uniform were told that they would not be served, so they went to a nearby charity shop, where they bought and changed into dresses before returning.
Bus driver Mr Kemp, who was having a drink in the pub at the time, said: “The soldiers were waiting for a plane from Brize Norton.
“They spent a couple of quid each on the dresses from a charity shop, and then when they were finished, they took the dresses back to the charity shop.”
It is not known where the soldiers were from or where they were flying to.
Beehive manager, Steve Patterson, did not recall the incident, but claimed the pub had been asked by RAF Brize Norton not to serve anyone in uniform, as did the owner of the Cross Keys pub.
He said: “We do it to avoid any confrontation with the base. They have asked us not to serve anyone in uniform.
“I would quite cheerfully serve them on a personal level.
“I served in the Armed Forces for 12 years. I have no gripes with the military. However, there is no point in me doing it on my own if all the pubs in the area have been asked the same thing.”
Personnel in the Navy, Army, or RAF are banned from entering any pub in uniform, unless it is for a funeral or wedding.
Last night, RAF Brize Norton spokesman, Katie Zasada, said: “As far as I know, there has been no communication to Carterton pubs or any other pubs not to serve personnel in uniform.
“That is not to say that at one point there wasn’t a telephone conversation with an officer here and some of the pubs.
Ms Zasada added: “I can’t say for definite, but there was a bit of a feeling that he had phoned up the pubs to reduce the amount of alcohol-fuelled trouble.
“The situation is that as it stands that it is quite clear in regulations that personnel in uniform do not go into pubs, unless specifically authorised.”
Mr Kemp, 51, called for the ban to be overturned.
He said: “I reckon it should be lifted now.
“It’s like kids in school uniform.
“If kids are playing up, you can distinguish which schools they are from, but that’s in schools and not for adults.”
He added: “These lads are brilliant lads, and they don’t cause trouble.”
Pubs in both Carterton and Witney have claimed they have had orders from the nearby RAF base, but until now, the base has denied making contact.
However, a spokesman for the base said that, although there had been no official communication between pubs and the base, an officer, who had now left, might have spoken to landlords asking them not to serve personnel.
Last week, Guardsman Brad Thomas and fellow Grenadier Guard Jimmy Nuttal were working for an Army recruitment team when they stopped for lunch at the Cross Keys pub, in Market Street, Witney.
But as they looked at the menu, they were told to leave because the pub would not serve members of the Armed Forces wearing uniform.
Steve Kemp, of Manor Road, Carterton, said he had witnessed a similar incident at the Beehive, in Black Bourton Road, Carterton, a few months ago.
He said that up to 15 soldiers in uniform were told that they would not be served, so they went to a nearby charity shop, where they bought and changed into dresses before returning.
Bus driver Mr Kemp, who was having a drink in the pub at the time, said: “The soldiers were waiting for a plane from Brize Norton.
“They spent a couple of quid each on the dresses from a charity shop, and then when they were finished, they took the dresses back to the charity shop.”
It is not known where the soldiers were from or where they were flying to.
Beehive manager, Steve Patterson, did not recall the incident, but claimed the pub had been asked by RAF Brize Norton not to serve anyone in uniform, as did the owner of the Cross Keys pub.
He said: “We do it to avoid any confrontation with the base. They have asked us not to serve anyone in uniform.
“I would quite cheerfully serve them on a personal level.
“I served in the Armed Forces for 12 years. I have no gripes with the military. However, there is no point in me doing it on my own if all the pubs in the area have been asked the same thing.”
Personnel in the Navy, Army, or RAF are banned from entering any pub in uniform, unless it is for a funeral or wedding.
Last night, RAF Brize Norton spokesman, Katie Zasada, said: “As far as I know, there has been no communication to Carterton pubs or any other pubs not to serve personnel in uniform.
“That is not to say that at one point there wasn’t a telephone conversation with an officer here and some of the pubs.
Ms Zasada added: “I can’t say for definite, but there was a bit of a feeling that he had phoned up the pubs to reduce the amount of alcohol-fuelled trouble.
“The situation is that as it stands that it is quite clear in regulations that personnel in uniform do not go into pubs, unless specifically authorised.”
Mr Kemp, 51, called for the ban to be overturned.
He said: “I reckon it should be lifted now.
“It’s like kids in school uniform.
“If kids are playing up, you can distinguish which schools they are from, but that’s in schools and not for adults.”
He added: “These lads are brilliant lads, and they don’t cause trouble.”
One wonders whether the pub would serve someone dressed as, say, a Star Trek character - or as an SS-Obersturmbannfuhrer ?
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Beagle - quoting others who agree with you does not make your views any more relevant or sensible on this topic. Laws and rules and regulations are usually there for the lowest common denominator - eg most people know that driving drunk is a bad idea, but there is a law for all.
Alcohol is a part of Service life, but less than when you served. Your reminiscing about those rather far back in a theatre drinking is a long way from current ops for most. I used to despise working for 'old school' senior officers who would often have a pint or two at lunchtime - it was offensive and divisive and plain embarrassing.
Alcohol is a part of Service life, but less than when you served. Your reminiscing about those rather far back in a theatre drinking is a long way from current ops for most. I used to despise working for 'old school' senior officers who would often have a pint or two at lunchtime - it was offensive and divisive and plain embarrassing.
Thread Starter
Laws and rules should never be aimed at the lowest common denominator, they should represent the organisation or society's required standards.
Your presumption that the situation I described was 'rather far back in theatre' is incorrect - unless you mean time rather than distance. It was lucky that the call-out for night 1 of Desert Storm wasn't a few hours later, or certain childish pi$$-heads would have been at 'Cable and Witless' drinking illegally at their planned "It didn't happen" party and would have been incapable of flying.....
Roll the clock forward a few years and a crew who had been drinking until late in an operational theatre were stopped at the gate and breathalysed on their way in to work. So they parked their car at the gate - then went flying.
I'm glad to hear that things aren't the same these days.
However, I still maintain that a couple of lads manning a recruiting stand can be trusted to behave correctly during a lunch break in a nearby pub.
Your presumption that the situation I described was 'rather far back in theatre' is incorrect - unless you mean time rather than distance. It was lucky that the call-out for night 1 of Desert Storm wasn't a few hours later, or certain childish pi$$-heads would have been at 'Cable and Witless' drinking illegally at their planned "It didn't happen" party and would have been incapable of flying.....
Roll the clock forward a few years and a crew who had been drinking until late in an operational theatre were stopped at the gate and breathalysed on their way in to work. So they parked their car at the gate - then went flying.
I'm glad to hear that things aren't the same these days.
However, I still maintain that a couple of lads manning a recruiting stand can be trusted to behave correctly during a lunch break in a nearby pub.
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Mr C Hinecap
It is obvious from your Posts - and seemingly confirmed by the age quoted for you under your user name - that you have no experience of operating away from Base in an environment where there is no instant advice or assistance available from "Higher Authority".
For people such as BEagle and myself that was a fact of life in the '60s and early '70s. There was no instant communication with "Higher Authority" when operating in a Foreign Land because there was no Communication Satellite System - Radio Communication was dependant on the time of day and the height of the ionosphere! Aircraft Captains had to make decisions - there was no-one else to do so for them.
One example for you - in 1969 I was the Co-Pilot on an Andover which landed at Timehri in Guyana. We were met by the Acting High Commisioner who asked if we could do an Aeromedical Evacuation of a young VSO volunteer who had been riding his moped along a jungle track when he met a 3 ton lorry coming the other way. Neither the High Commision nor ourselves were able to establish contact with UK or our Detatchment HQ - so we flew that sortie without any authorisation. There were no recriminations because that was exactly the sort of decision Junior Officers were expected to be able to make as a matter of routine.
One of the prime objectives in any future conflict will be to knock out the Opposition's Command and Control systems. We should expect Junior Personnel to be able -and willing -to shoulder the burden of responsibilty if so required.
It is obvious from your Posts - and seemingly confirmed by the age quoted for you under your user name - that you have no experience of operating away from Base in an environment where there is no instant advice or assistance available from "Higher Authority".
For people such as BEagle and myself that was a fact of life in the '60s and early '70s. There was no instant communication with "Higher Authority" when operating in a Foreign Land because there was no Communication Satellite System - Radio Communication was dependant on the time of day and the height of the ionosphere! Aircraft Captains had to make decisions - there was no-one else to do so for them.
One example for you - in 1969 I was the Co-Pilot on an Andover which landed at Timehri in Guyana. We were met by the Acting High Commisioner who asked if we could do an Aeromedical Evacuation of a young VSO volunteer who had been riding his moped along a jungle track when he met a 3 ton lorry coming the other way. Neither the High Commision nor ourselves were able to establish contact with UK or our Detatchment HQ - so we flew that sortie without any authorisation. There were no recriminations because that was exactly the sort of decision Junior Officers were expected to be able to make as a matter of routine.
One of the prime objectives in any future conflict will be to knock out the Opposition's Command and Control systems. We should expect Junior Personnel to be able -and willing -to shoulder the burden of responsibilty if so required.
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There is a hint that one or two of you could turn this thread could turn into a p****g contest, the instant it does it will go into the bin.
The answer is to avoid niggardly and deliberate snipes. Fair enough?
The answer is to avoid niggardly and deliberate snipes. Fair enough?
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The MoD may be a bit sniffy about buying beer whilst in uniform but seem to be OK about serving it (artistic licence there as I do note that it’s Fosters);
All very respectable though, as explained http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/De...BodyArmour.htm but I couldn’t resist it.
All very respectable though, as explained http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/De...BodyArmour.htm but I couldn’t resist it.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Late to the thread but it is perhaps arguable that drinking in uniform might be better than getting paralytic out of it.
In uniform you know you are visibile and will, hopefully, behave. Out of uniform, while demonstrable 'off-duty', you might think you are 'covert' but the public will soon twig that you are military. In the subsequent court appearance the gentlemen of the press will make it quite clear that you are military.
And in pubs in uniform officially?
Out on Otterburn as Distaff while the studes are given time to construct hides. In the pub but no need to drink.
Or OC of JACIG with visiting Russian general at lunchtime - everyone into civvies in the car park?
Or being told by Wittering that we would have to go down town Stamford as we would not be allowed in the mess in flying kit?
Or my colonel having lunch in our local hostelry.
The rules would be better as guidance.
In uniform you know you are visibile and will, hopefully, behave. Out of uniform, while demonstrable 'off-duty', you might think you are 'covert' but the public will soon twig that you are military. In the subsequent court appearance the gentlemen of the press will make it quite clear that you are military.
And in pubs in uniform officially?
Out on Otterburn as Distaff while the studes are given time to construct hides. In the pub but no need to drink.
Or OC of JACIG with visiting Russian general at lunchtime - everyone into civvies in the car park?
Or being told by Wittering that we would have to go down town Stamford as we would not be allowed in the mess in flying kit?
Or my colonel having lunch in our local hostelry.
The rules would be better as guidance.
