Chinook - Still Hitting Back 3 (Merged)
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JT,
I know you, in a previous life we have been in your house, but the fact that you are a Geordie does not preclude me from stating.........
Thanks for that, you have put into "speak" what most of us think
I know you, in a previous life we have been in your house, but the fact that you are a Geordie does not preclude me from stating.........
Thanks for that, you have put into "speak" what most of us think
Last edited by Seldomfitforpurpose; 17th Mar 2008 at 08:04.
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The absurdities that WK (oh! the temptation!)spews forth are made of a vivid imagination and bugga all else. It is obvious that when Rick and Jon get the justice they deserve he will still raise 'vital' points in the forlorn hope he can continue to rant his ridiculous theories.
Just leave us walt to enjoy the next few days up to Easter, and beyond, until the SoD passes his judgement. Till then just FO!
Btw. Brian Dixon is a good man. He must be, because a lesser man would have given up years ago but he can forget "handing over the baton" to you 'cos I will campaign AGAINST it. No way are you worthy so, as I say, give us a break and **** orf. There's a good chap.
Happy Easter everyone.
Just leave us walt to enjoy the next few days up to Easter, and beyond, until the SoD passes his judgement. Till then just FO!
Btw. Brian Dixon is a good man. He must be, because a lesser man would have given up years ago but he can forget "handing over the baton" to you 'cos I will campaign AGAINST it. No way are you worthy so, as I say, give us a break and **** orf. There's a good chap.
Happy Easter everyone.
Avoid imitations
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Yet again, I implore Walter to start his own thread on his own individual theory.
He hasn't in the past and won't in the future because I think deep down he knows what is likely to happen to it.
He hasn't in the past and won't in the future because I think deep down he knows what is likely to happen to it.
I’ve said before that I don’t subscribe to Walter’s theory. But, without doubt, much of what he’s proposing is a regular occurrence across the MoD. Noting the kit he discusses is, according to Boeing, a Service Engineered Modification, the answer to all the following questions is YES.
All this occurred on one aircraft within the same management/airworthiness chain as Chinook. No, I don’t think Walter is right, but there are far greater things to worry about.
- Would the MoD/IPT lie to an investigator regarding the installation and/or reasoning behind a SEM?
- Would they deny all knowledge of the kit/SEM to investigators and, subsequent to a fatal crash, “lose” all documentation and Corporate knowledge?
- Would they permit an SEM to be fitted and used without first following the mandated airworthiness requirement to have it appraised and trialled?
- Would they permit it to be used knowing it to be unsafe?
- Would they issue a formal instruction to knowingly make it unsafe during use, placing the aircraft and occupants in grave danger? (That’s a cracker!).
- Would someone outside the engineering chain, and therefore not holding airworthiness or type approval delegation, be permitted to make engineering decisions on an SEM (or any kit) and order its installation, removal or modification, over-ruling previous decisions that, for example, the SEM is unsafe and should not be installed?
- Would they demand or grant “read across” from another aircraft without appraisal/assessment, again in breach of airworthiness regs?
- Would they maliciously blame someone whom they knew to be innocent?
All this occurred on one aircraft within the same management/airworthiness chain as Chinook. No, I don’t think Walter is right, but there are far greater things to worry about.
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Tuc,
Very wise words indeed and I agree with them completely, however the only caveat I would add is that if the circumstances you list even remotely applied in this case I believe there is no way on this planet that it would not have come to lite by now.
I fear that your words will simply add fuel to this idiots fire hence my reiteration of a standpoint I have maintained to date so please do not read anything more into my statement.
Very wise words indeed and I agree with them completely, however the only caveat I would add is that if the circumstances you list even remotely applied in this case I believe there is no way on this planet that it would not have come to lite by now.
I fear that your words will simply add fuel to this idiots fire hence my reiteration of a standpoint I have maintained to date so please do not read anything more into my statement.
On the other hand, SFFP, there is a danger of throwing Tuc's baby out with Walter's bathwater. Whereas we may be well shot of the latter, the series of outrages described by Tuc did happen, in total contravention of the MOD's grave responsibilities as the Regulatory Authority for Military Airworthiness. In this, as in countless other failures to exercise that authority in a responsible way, it has shown itself unfit to exercise such responsibilities which should be removed forthwith. This emperor is not only naked but is holding a blood spattered knife. We have a problem and someone needs to get hold of the knife!.
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As I have tried to explain before, don't get hung up on the ARS6/PRC112 issue - it is only a suggested candidate system that I think fits.
What is important is that you with experience of the contemporary avionics and practices come up with a plausible explanation for the handling pilot's HSI course selector being on 035M.
This was the line from the position of waypoint change to the crash site; he would have had 027 set for the previous 40ish miles to that point.
What could he have been referring to?
Either an external radio aid of certain types or a waypoint in the SuperTANS can get your CDI working usefully (otherwise why change the course setting?).
What do you suggest?
What is important is that you with experience of the contemporary avionics and practices come up with a plausible explanation for the handling pilot's HSI course selector being on 035M.
This was the line from the position of waypoint change to the crash site; he would have had 027 set for the previous 40ish miles to that point.
What could he have been referring to?
Either an external radio aid of certain types or a waypoint in the SuperTANS can get your CDI working usefully (otherwise why change the course setting?).
What do you suggest?
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"What do you suggest?"
What ever any aviation, military and rotary expert "suggests" to you you simply ignore
JT in his 14th March post, who is an aviation, military and rotary expert has a suggestion, linked to the fact that he was there that day and states with actual knowledge if the aircraft in question you are 100% wrong, that you would do well to take notice of him considering this statement of his credentials.................but my mortgage says you simply ignore him
What ever any aviation, military and rotary expert "suggests" to you you simply ignore
JT in his 14th March post, who is an aviation, military and rotary expert has a suggestion, linked to the fact that he was there that day and states with actual knowledge if the aircraft in question you are 100% wrong, that you would do well to take notice of him considering this statement of his credentials.................but my mortgage says you simply ignore him
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Once again you try and distract from the question - you repeat the attack on the specific equipment.
Why haven't any of you got an answer for that deliberate turn? - and what they could have been using for their bearing?
Why do you keep trying to confuse this point?
If you do not wish to contribute to a discussion on this aspect of the basic nav, why not put me on your ignore list instead of trying to drown out debate like Orwell's sheep?
I have said it before, you do not have to go along with any conspiracy theory to advance the general knowledge of this crash - there are two main aspects that I have been presenting that any of you can get to by doing some research yourself:
1 The local weather was misrepresented - they were not lost in it but ran into it just before the rock;
2 they had executed a deliberate turn towards a known LZ and apparently had something to give them a bearing on an HSI.
.
There are many other circumstantial factors that point to some activity thereabouts that were not consistent with a straighforward ferry flight.
Why haven't any of you got an answer for that deliberate turn? - and what they could have been using for their bearing?
Why do you keep trying to confuse this point?
If you do not wish to contribute to a discussion on this aspect of the basic nav, why not put me on your ignore list instead of trying to drown out debate like Orwell's sheep?
I have said it before, you do not have to go along with any conspiracy theory to advance the general knowledge of this crash - there are two main aspects that I have been presenting that any of you can get to by doing some research yourself:
1 The local weather was misrepresented - they were not lost in it but ran into it just before the rock;
2 they had executed a deliberate turn towards a known LZ and apparently had something to give them a bearing on an HSI.
.
There are many other circumstantial factors that point to some activity thereabouts that were not consistent with a straighforward ferry flight.
Why haven't any of you got an answer for that deliberate turn?
The only people who know beyond any doubt whatsoever what actually happened are now dead. No-one else has that degree of knowledge - certainly not Wratten and Day.
Your theory about SEALS with their wacky wirelesses sucrrying about on the Mull are a distraction and are not really helping the main thrust of the long-standing campaign.
Just a numbered other
WK:
As much as I hate to encourage further discourse with you, why make this assumption?
In SH, the HSI is an utter irrelevance for VFR flight. It could be randomly set at anything, coz they simply weren't using it.
he would have had 027 set for the previous 40ish miles to that point.
In SH, the HSI is an utter irrelevance for VFR flight. It could be randomly set at anything, coz they simply weren't using it.
Avoid imitations
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I agree, the HSI isn't routinely set during VFR operations because you seldom need to follow a direct course in SH ops.
(The RAF operated the SH Puma HC1 for at least 25 years without so much as a heading pointer on the main compass displays).
What was the relevance of it's setting after an accident like this? Most likely, nothing whatsoever.
(The RAF operated the SH Puma HC1 for at least 25 years without so much as a heading pointer on the main compass displays).
What was the relevance of it's setting after an accident like this? Most likely, nothing whatsoever.
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Walter on the Chinook HC2 the CDB can be set by either pilot to any hdg regardless of any other outside stimuli (infact external sources cannot move the CDB), he can also manipulate the other pilots CDB. That the CDBs were on different hdgs would suggest to me that something may have nudged it, say some turbulence?.. or crashing at speed into a large cumulo-granite!
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Walter,
The last 3 posts give you clear, precise and informed information with regards to the HSI course selector.
Beag's post quite succinctly addresses your assertion with regards to the "deliberate" turn.
Mr Purdy and others have given accounts of how weather and inadvertant entry in to IMC can catch out the best of us.
Does any of this help?
The last 3 posts give you clear, precise and informed information with regards to the HSI course selector.
Beag's post quite succinctly addresses your assertion with regards to the "deliberate" turn.
Mr Purdy and others have given accounts of how weather and inadvertant entry in to IMC can catch out the best of us.
Does any of this help?
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Use of the HSI
I am a little surprised to read that the HSI is "not routinely set" or is an "utter irrelevance" for VFR operation. There must be some difference between a tactical flight and a VFR cross-country flight.
On, for example, a troop insertion where the aircraft is making a concealed approach the HSI is not needed since the aircraft is not being flown in one single direction.
On a flight from Belfast to Inverness (or anywhere to anywhere) via a set of way-points defined by the aircrafts navaids as opposed to a visual map fix, you need to know if you're left or right of track. Why would you not set the HSI?
I'm not commenting upon the various theories, simply curious about the use of a prime cross-country aid to navigation.
On, for example, a troop insertion where the aircraft is making a concealed approach the HSI is not needed since the aircraft is not being flown in one single direction.
On a flight from Belfast to Inverness (or anywhere to anywhere) via a set of way-points defined by the aircrafts navaids as opposed to a visual map fix, you need to know if you're left or right of track. Why would you not set the HSI?
I'm not commenting upon the various theories, simply curious about the use of a prime cross-country aid to navigation.
Just a numbered other
Bos,
I speak from how we operated the SK4 so may be a little different to the CH47.
The HSI was only relevant in IFR flight. It could be used to track a VOR, but only that. In VFR flight, the TANS course would be displayed on the 'Charlie bar' which was the lateral element of the doppler instrument used in the TANS mode, either tactically, giving a course to next waypoint, or the other mode (sorry many years ago, forgotten term) which would return you to the direct track between previous and next waypoint.
I think the HSI could be slaved to the TANS, but it was a clumsy instrument in that mode and never used in that way.
I know if I'd crashed, the HSI course woukld have meant nothing. Similarly, the ADF frequency is irrelevant, they simply weren't using it.
Were I flying the accident aircraft, I'd be using TANS in TAC steer mode and a map. Nothing 'radio' wise would have been in any way used or their course, or frequency settings relevant.
The waypoint change, to me, suggests that the next point had been visually identified, so the next was selected. What happened next we will neber know.
I speak from how we operated the SK4 so may be a little different to the CH47.
The HSI was only relevant in IFR flight. It could be used to track a VOR, but only that. In VFR flight, the TANS course would be displayed on the 'Charlie bar' which was the lateral element of the doppler instrument used in the TANS mode, either tactically, giving a course to next waypoint, or the other mode (sorry many years ago, forgotten term) which would return you to the direct track between previous and next waypoint.
I think the HSI could be slaved to the TANS, but it was a clumsy instrument in that mode and never used in that way.
I know if I'd crashed, the HSI course woukld have meant nothing. Similarly, the ADF frequency is irrelevant, they simply weren't using it.
Were I flying the accident aircraft, I'd be using TANS in TAC steer mode and a map. Nothing 'radio' wise would have been in any way used or their course, or frequency settings relevant.
The waypoint change, to me, suggests that the next point had been visually identified, so the next was selected. What happened next we will neber know.
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HSI
Arkroyal
Many thanks. There's always an answer if you ask the right question. Your answer covers several mental queries I've had about other posts concerning the use of the HSI. For what its worth, on the civilian Chinook, the HSI could be slaved to VOR or Decca and was always used.
Boslandew
Many thanks. There's always an answer if you ask the right question. Your answer covers several mental queries I've had about other posts concerning the use of the HSI. For what its worth, on the civilian Chinook, the HSI could be slaved to VOR or Decca and was always used.
Boslandew
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Chinook
SELDOM. Your 3314. Please do not misquote me; In the incidents I memtioned, I turned away (would not you?); this crew evidently did not. Meanwhile, where is SofS's decision? With all good wishes, JP