Chinook - Still Hitting Back 3 (Merged)
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We are still waiting for the decision from Mr Browne, Mr Purdey.
I am sure it will come along in good time although, like you, I hope that the families are not kept waiting too much longer.
Kind regards,
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
I am sure it will come along in good time although, like you, I hope that the families are not kept waiting too much longer.
Kind regards,
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
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JP,
The post you refer to simply states
"Mr Purdy and others have given accounts of how weather and inadvertant entry in to IMC can catch out the best of us."
Whilst in a previous post by yourself you told us
"As it happens, I recall more than once finding myself inadverently entering IMC at very low level, usually in mist over the sea off Sicily and several times over the N German plain in typically wintery conditions (admittedly fixed wing), and I did the obvious and sensible thing, which was to go straight onto instruments and make a steady rate one turn away! What would you have done"
So I am not too sure how I have misquoted you.
Regards
The post you refer to simply states
"Mr Purdy and others have given accounts of how weather and inadvertant entry in to IMC can catch out the best of us."
Whilst in a previous post by yourself you told us
"As it happens, I recall more than once finding myself inadverently entering IMC at very low level, usually in mist over the sea off Sicily and several times over the N German plain in typically wintery conditions (admittedly fixed wing), and I did the obvious and sensible thing, which was to go straight onto instruments and make a steady rate one turn away! What would you have done"
So I am not too sure how I have misquoted you.
Regards
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Boslandew
<< … on the civilian Chinook, the HSI could be slaved to VOR or Decca and was always used.>>
And on the American military Chinook 47D the HSI could be driven by (amongst other things via the mode select panel):
The GPS/Doppler nav computer (equivalent to SuperTANS), the range and bearing info being that to a waypoint selected on that computer;
A VOR/TACAN/DVOR, whichever was tuned into by the nav radio.
I believe that the RAF HC2 Chinook was basically a 47D avionics wise.
.
I find some of the comments by other contributors about the HSI being irrelevant to this crash ridiculous for the following reasons:
Waypoint A and the position where the waypoint in the SuperTANS was changed both lay exactly on the 027 radial (of the time) from Aldergrove VOR position – 40 miles back including about 10 in the Antrim hills in bad weather and the aiming point ahead, the Mull, being shrouded in mist – and Boeings analysis had it that they could not have done much else than keep on a straight line (dist/time etc) – and I would find it incredible that they would not have had 027 on the handling pilot’s HSI up to that point of waypoint change;
From the position of waypoint change to the crash site was 035 mag (at that time) and that was what was found on the handling pilot’s HSI – too much of a coincidence surely?
To have set his HSI course selector so tells us three things:
The 8 degree right turn was deliberate;
There had to be something for the HSI to work off (or you wouldn’t bother with adjusting the course selector);
They were not in difficulties at the position of waypoint change (for the above reason) which was already very close in.
.
Further, just from the point of view of saving fuel and time, you would surely want to keep on track – it is foolish to deny the utility of such systems just because analysis shows up something you can’t get your head(s) around.
<< … on the civilian Chinook, the HSI could be slaved to VOR or Decca and was always used.>>
And on the American military Chinook 47D the HSI could be driven by (amongst other things via the mode select panel):
The GPS/Doppler nav computer (equivalent to SuperTANS), the range and bearing info being that to a waypoint selected on that computer;
A VOR/TACAN/DVOR, whichever was tuned into by the nav radio.
I believe that the RAF HC2 Chinook was basically a 47D avionics wise.
.
I find some of the comments by other contributors about the HSI being irrelevant to this crash ridiculous for the following reasons:
Waypoint A and the position where the waypoint in the SuperTANS was changed both lay exactly on the 027 radial (of the time) from Aldergrove VOR position – 40 miles back including about 10 in the Antrim hills in bad weather and the aiming point ahead, the Mull, being shrouded in mist – and Boeings analysis had it that they could not have done much else than keep on a straight line (dist/time etc) – and I would find it incredible that they would not have had 027 on the handling pilot’s HSI up to that point of waypoint change;
From the position of waypoint change to the crash site was 035 mag (at that time) and that was what was found on the handling pilot’s HSI – too much of a coincidence surely?
To have set his HSI course selector so tells us three things:
The 8 degree right turn was deliberate;
There had to be something for the HSI to work off (or you wouldn’t bother with adjusting the course selector);
They were not in difficulties at the position of waypoint change (for the above reason) which was already very close in.
.
Further, just from the point of view of saving fuel and time, you would surely want to keep on track – it is foolish to deny the utility of such systems just because analysis shows up something you can’t get your head(s) around.
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MasterofNone
Perhaps you could refresh your knowledge of how the pilots' HSI mode selectors interact and also consider the "nudging" of the knob to the actual track - and then edit your post to save you from embarrassment.
Perhaps you could refresh your knowledge of how the pilots' HSI mode selectors interact and also consider the "nudging" of the knob to the actual track - and then edit your post to save you from embarrassment.
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Chinook
Seldom. You said "Mr Purdy and others have given accounts of how weather and inadvertant entry in to IMC can catch out the best of us". We seem to be into word games again, and it depends what you mean by 'being caught out'. True, I was surprised by the poor weather ahead, but not mentally unprepared for it, especially off the broken coast of north Sicily. What we did not do in those (perhaps somewhat distant days) was hand ourselves over to the Sicilian AT Controllers! So, en route to an amphibious landing exercise on the south coast of Sardinia, I turned about, in clear view of the sea beneath me, then felt my way around the clag, and pressed on with my VLL recce task. I am surprised that you might think this unusual, and that I was in some way 'caught out'
Meanwhile, I cannot believe that the Chinook crew were in any way 'caught out' by the conditions ahead of them; they were in good VMC over the sea, and, like the yachsman, they could see the cloud covered hills ahead of them.
But I do enjoy our fraternal exchanges!! Regards JP
Meanwhile, I cannot believe that the Chinook crew were in any way 'caught out' by the conditions ahead of them; they were in good VMC over the sea, and, like the yachsman, they could see the cloud covered hills ahead of them.
But I do enjoy our fraternal exchanges!! Regards JP
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Walter,
As someone who has operated and instructed on the RAF Chinook HC2 and not just gleaned information from other uninformed opinions I'm confident that there is no embaressment on my side. The CDBs can only be moved by the pilots. They can be used to display cross track information from a variety of sources including a navigation computer, but are often used just to display to the Handling Pilot a desired heading set by the Non Handling Pilot. The reasons the CDB in this case was indicating what it was will never be known but it cannot have been 'dragged' around there by an external influence. If the HP/NHP had reason to doubt the nav computer they may have been looking for a known point to 'zero' it on, please note the use of the phrase 'may have'. The only other info the CDB can work on are TACAN or VOR indications, neither of which were situated on the Mull that day, at least they weren't when I was.
As someone who has operated and instructed on the RAF Chinook HC2 and not just gleaned information from other uninformed opinions I'm confident that there is no embaressment on my side. The CDBs can only be moved by the pilots. They can be used to display cross track information from a variety of sources including a navigation computer, but are often used just to display to the Handling Pilot a desired heading set by the Non Handling Pilot. The reasons the CDB in this case was indicating what it was will never be known but it cannot have been 'dragged' around there by an external influence. If the HP/NHP had reason to doubt the nav computer they may have been looking for a known point to 'zero' it on, please note the use of the phrase 'may have'. The only other info the CDB can work on are TACAN or VOR indications, neither of which were situated on the Mull that day, at least they weren't when I was.
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Walter,
"MasterofNone
Perhaps you could refresh your knowledge of how the pilots' HSI mode selectors interact and also consider the "nudging" of the knob to the actual track - and then edit your post to save you from embarrassment."
Considering MON's professionally informed riposte are you now prepared to offer an unequivocal and humble full apology for us all to see........................
"MasterofNone
Perhaps you could refresh your knowledge of how the pilots' HSI mode selectors interact and also consider the "nudging" of the knob to the actual track - and then edit your post to save you from embarrassment."
Considering MON's professionally informed riposte are you now prepared to offer an unequivocal and humble full apology for us all to see........................
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JP,
Verbal jousting can be fun but I have to ask you to explain some of what you say. You have stated quite clearly that you have "more than once finding myself inadverently entering IMC" your words not mine.
You then tell us that "True, I was surprised by the poor weather ahead, but not mentally unprepared for it" which from my perspective beggars the question that if you were mentally prepared for it how come you actually entered IMC as surely if you were prepared for the eventuality you would simply, as a professional aviator, have avoided it?
And as for "they were in good VMC over the sea, and, like the yachsman, they could see the cloud covered hills ahead of them" PROVE that statement for me please.
Regards
Verbal jousting can be fun but I have to ask you to explain some of what you say. You have stated quite clearly that you have "more than once finding myself inadverently entering IMC" your words not mine.
You then tell us that "True, I was surprised by the poor weather ahead, but not mentally unprepared for it" which from my perspective beggars the question that if you were mentally prepared for it how come you actually entered IMC as surely if you were prepared for the eventuality you would simply, as a professional aviator, have avoided it?
And as for "they were in good VMC over the sea, and, like the yachsman, they could see the cloud covered hills ahead of them" PROVE that statement for me please.
Regards
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But that does not really answer the two questions I posed JP
1. "if you were mentally prepared for it how come you actually entered IMC"
2. "And as for "they were in good VMC over the sea, and, like the yachsman, they could see the cloud covered hills ahead of them" PROVE that statement for me please."
I know it's just word games for you but I really would be interested in your answers to the above.
Regards
1. "if you were mentally prepared for it how come you actually entered IMC"
2. "And as for "they were in good VMC over the sea, and, like the yachsman, they could see the cloud covered hills ahead of them" PROVE that statement for me please."
I know it's just word games for you but I really would be interested in your answers to the above.
Regards
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Chinook
Seldom. This is becoming somewhat boring, but in answer to 1. Mentally prepared, ie I knew what to do (ie turn about) if the marginal conditions became IMC, as they did.
As for 2. Unless the yachtsman was a liar, the conditions he saw at that same time were those that the crew saw. He was the only witness. Do you discount his evidence, because if you do then we are into quite another discussion.
With renewed good wishes, but probably for the very last time, as we await the decision/verdict/judgement/opinion (take your pick!) of SofS.
John Purdey
As for 2. Unless the yachtsman was a liar, the conditions he saw at that same time were those that the crew saw. He was the only witness. Do you discount his evidence, because if you do then we are into quite another discussion.
With renewed good wishes, but probably for the very last time, as we await the decision/verdict/judgement/opinion (take your pick!) of SofS.
John Purdey
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JP,
I know this is really boring but all I am asking for is that you answer the question.
So thinking back to your post where you said you were mentally prepared for it how come you actually entered IMC".........see I am at a loss as to how a military pilot with all those hours of training, knowing the wx was that bad allowed himself to get suckered into an IMC situation...........and
"Unless the yachtsman was a liar, the conditions he saw at that same time were those that the crew saw."..............just to satisfy my curiousity prove that "he saw they saw" thing to me........
Regards and looking forward to your reply
I know this is really boring but all I am asking for is that you answer the question.
So thinking back to your post where you said you were mentally prepared for it how come you actually entered IMC".........see I am at a loss as to how a military pilot with all those hours of training, knowing the wx was that bad allowed himself to get suckered into an IMC situation...........and
"Unless the yachtsman was a liar, the conditions he saw at that same time were those that the crew saw."..............just to satisfy my curiousity prove that "he saw they saw" thing to me........
Regards and looking forward to your reply
Last edited by Seldomfitforpurpose; 23rd Mar 2008 at 00:02.
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JP,
Typical bank holiday weather so enjoying the comforts of home which does leave a little time to peruse these boards so should you feel inclined to address the two questions I posed I would very much appreciate your thoughts.
Regards
Typical bank holiday weather so enjoying the comforts of home which does leave a little time to peruse these boards so should you feel inclined to address the two questions I posed I would very much appreciate your thoughts.
Regards
A really irritating PPRuNer
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Hi everyone.
I am led to believe that Lord O'Neill met with Mr Browne the other day and made an enquiry as to how the Chinook issue was progressing. Mr Browne informed Lord O'Neill that the current situation in Iraq was occupying most of his time at the moment so, unfortunately, he had not had too much time to give to our report.
Having read, and seen, the things that our boys and girls are having to put up with over in the sandpit, I have no issue with Mr Browne directing his attentions where they are quite rightly more urgently required.
He did say to Lord O'Neill, however, that he has asked for the Chinook document to be made available to him during the forthcoming Parliamentry recess. He has said that he will review the matter during the break.
Looks like we will have to wait until the end of April for a comment.
Please don't use this thread to have a go at Mr Browne. I would expect (and support) his priority to be those currently serving in dangerous places. Rest assured, he has been left in no doubt that the Campaign will not go away until he properly addresses the injustice.
My best, as always.
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - Johnh Cook
I am led to believe that Lord O'Neill met with Mr Browne the other day and made an enquiry as to how the Chinook issue was progressing. Mr Browne informed Lord O'Neill that the current situation in Iraq was occupying most of his time at the moment so, unfortunately, he had not had too much time to give to our report.
Having read, and seen, the things that our boys and girls are having to put up with over in the sandpit, I have no issue with Mr Browne directing his attentions where they are quite rightly more urgently required.
He did say to Lord O'Neill, however, that he has asked for the Chinook document to be made available to him during the forthcoming Parliamentry recess. He has said that he will review the matter during the break.
Looks like we will have to wait until the end of April for a comment.
Please don't use this thread to have a go at Mr Browne. I would expect (and support) his priority to be those currently serving in dangerous places. Rest assured, he has been left in no doubt that the Campaign will not go away until he properly addresses the injustice.
My best, as always.
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - Johnh Cook
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<<Having read, and seen, the things that our boys and girls are having to put up with over in the sandpit, I have no issue with Mr Browne directing his attentions where they are quite rightly more urgently required.>>
.
Nearly 14 years and we are still being asked to wait.
Whatever caused this crash, the loss of the team on board was a significant event in a very serious and long running domestic battle against terrorism that affected us all – as such, it should not be put on the back burner in favour of an illegitimate and unjust war in the middle east – for exactly whose benefit? – we can always bring our young people home if the situation there is so bad.
The scale of the loss in this crash compared to the most serious events in the middle east should still give importance to finding the cause if it was not simple pilot error.
.
By the way, the “sandpit” is someone’s home.
.
On the technical side, I can’t be bothered myself pointing out the misunderstandings and relevant posts to Professor Stanley Unwin (or whoever that recent poster on HSIs is).
.
Nearly 14 years and we are still being asked to wait.
Whatever caused this crash, the loss of the team on board was a significant event in a very serious and long running domestic battle against terrorism that affected us all – as such, it should not be put on the back burner in favour of an illegitimate and unjust war in the middle east – for exactly whose benefit? – we can always bring our young people home if the situation there is so bad.
The scale of the loss in this crash compared to the most serious events in the middle east should still give importance to finding the cause if it was not simple pilot error.
.
By the way, the “sandpit” is someone’s home.
.
On the technical side, I can’t be bothered myself pointing out the misunderstandings and relevant posts to Professor Stanley Unwin (or whoever that recent poster on HSIs is).
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Walter,
I am going to ask you very politely to reconsider your last post and offer up two apologies for it.
How dare you question Brian Dixon’s last post. If he of all people chooses to remain, as he has done right throughout this campaign, calm and dignified in the face of yet another delay in this process then that is his right. If you consider the enormity of what he is trying achieve the fact that he can act so magnanimously this close to the final hurdle does him great credit and your post simply makes you look foolish and I demand your apology forthwith.
In post #3324 you rather childishly wrote
“MasterofNone
Perhaps you could refresh your knowledge of how the pilots' HSI mode selectors interact and also consider the "nudging" of the knob to the actual track - and then edit your post to save you from embarrassment.”
In post # 3326 Master of None replied thus
“Walter,
As someone who has operated and instructed on the RAF Chinook HC2 and not just gleaned information from other uninformed opinions I'm confident that there is no embaressment on my side. The CDBs can only be moved by the pilots. They can be used to display cross track information from a variety of sources including a navigation computer, but are often used just to display to the Handling Pilot a desired heading set by the Non Handling Pilot. The reasons the CDB in this case was indicating what it was will never be known but it cannot have been 'dragged' around there by an external influence. If the HP/NHP had reason to doubt the nav computer they may have been looking for a known point to 'zero' it on, please note the use of the phrase 'may have'. The only other info the CDB can work on are TACAN or VOR indications, neither of which were situated on the Mull that day, at least they weren't when I was.
So perhaps in light of your last post and the two I have mentioned here you would like to offer Master of None a full and public apology in here, which I know you will not oblige us with as to do so you will have to admit that your theory on the cause of this crash is baseless.
I look forward to your response
I am going to ask you very politely to reconsider your last post and offer up two apologies for it.
How dare you question Brian Dixon’s last post. If he of all people chooses to remain, as he has done right throughout this campaign, calm and dignified in the face of yet another delay in this process then that is his right. If you consider the enormity of what he is trying achieve the fact that he can act so magnanimously this close to the final hurdle does him great credit and your post simply makes you look foolish and I demand your apology forthwith.
In post #3324 you rather childishly wrote
“MasterofNone
Perhaps you could refresh your knowledge of how the pilots' HSI mode selectors interact and also consider the "nudging" of the knob to the actual track - and then edit your post to save you from embarrassment.”
In post # 3326 Master of None replied thus
“Walter,
As someone who has operated and instructed on the RAF Chinook HC2 and not just gleaned information from other uninformed opinions I'm confident that there is no embaressment on my side. The CDBs can only be moved by the pilots. They can be used to display cross track information from a variety of sources including a navigation computer, but are often used just to display to the Handling Pilot a desired heading set by the Non Handling Pilot. The reasons the CDB in this case was indicating what it was will never be known but it cannot have been 'dragged' around there by an external influence. If the HP/NHP had reason to doubt the nav computer they may have been looking for a known point to 'zero' it on, please note the use of the phrase 'may have'. The only other info the CDB can work on are TACAN or VOR indications, neither of which were situated on the Mull that day, at least they weren't when I was.
So perhaps in light of your last post and the two I have mentioned here you would like to offer Master of None a full and public apology in here, which I know you will not oblige us with as to do so you will have to admit that your theory on the cause of this crash is baseless.
I look forward to your response
Last edited by Seldomfitforpurpose; 3rd Apr 2008 at 07:54.
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Walter,
whether you agree with the war in Iraq, or not, those currently over in the sandpit (military term), deserve the full support of the people. They are doing an incredibly difficult job under even more difficult circumstances.
Currently, (the Good Lord willing) they are still alive and, as such, deserve to go to the front of the queue.
Mr Browne has given an assurance that he will look at the Chinook documentation during the recess. I can ask no more of him than that under the current circumstances.
SPP - I'm only calm and dignified on the Internet
Kind regards, as always.
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
whether you agree with the war in Iraq, or not, those currently over in the sandpit (military term), deserve the full support of the people. They are doing an incredibly difficult job under even more difficult circumstances.
Currently, (the Good Lord willing) they are still alive and, as such, deserve to go to the front of the queue.
Mr Browne has given an assurance that he will look at the Chinook documentation during the recess. I can ask no more of him than that under the current circumstances.
SPP - I'm only calm and dignified on the Internet
Kind regards, as always.
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
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WK, that is one unworthy and inconsiderate post! The only reason I have not removed it is because Brian has answered you in his own and very proper way. But do please rest assured that a repeat of your unwarranted impatience will receive short shrift in future.
You will have to wait as we all have to wait.
PPP
You will have to wait as we all have to wait.
PPP
I think that you might have just become another facet of Walter's conspiracy, PPRuNe Pop! As Kenneth Williams proclaimed, "Infamy, Infamy; they've all got it in for me!". My own conspiracy theory revolves around the three threads on this Forum now coming at last to fruition; this one awaiting the attention of the SoS, the Nimrod case now under the review of a QC, and of course the Hercules one where witnesses are interviewed 'informally' long before they appear in front of the Coroner! The connection between them? The MOD, looking balefully at the prospect of being centre stage. Somehow I think that we are in for a long wait!