Chinook - Still Hitting Back 3 (Merged)
I have just e-mailed my MP, the Prime Minister in waiting, to congratulate him on winning the Conservative Party leadership contest but also to ask him whether, in common with 14 other Tory MPs who have already done so, he would be minded to sign EDM 1111 as he did EDM 337 in February 2004.
Received a reply later stating that, as Leader of the Opposition, David won't be signing EDMs; however, " he will always be able to ask specific questions to Ministers on your behalf if you would like to him to."
So I will now ask him "To ask the Rt Hon Dr John Reid MP, Secretary of State for Defence:
1. Whether he will appoint a Judge of the High Court or some other person who has held high judicial office to conduct an independent and impartial review of all the evidence that has been gathered in all the hearings and inquiries that have been held regarding the crash of the Chinook helicopter on the Mull of Kintyre on 2nd June 1994.
2. Further, for that person to advise whether, having regard to the appropriate burden and standard of proof, such evidence is sufficient to support the conclusion that the pilots were guilty of gross negligence.
3. For the Rt Hon Dr John Reid MP, Secretary of State for Defence to follow the advice of that person and to act accordingly."
Received a reply later stating that, as Leader of the Opposition, David won't be signing EDMs; however, " he will always be able to ask specific questions to Ministers on your behalf if you would like to him to."
So I will now ask him "To ask the Rt Hon Dr John Reid MP, Secretary of State for Defence:
1. Whether he will appoint a Judge of the High Court or some other person who has held high judicial office to conduct an independent and impartial review of all the evidence that has been gathered in all the hearings and inquiries that have been held regarding the crash of the Chinook helicopter on the Mull of Kintyre on 2nd June 1994.
2. Further, for that person to advise whether, having regard to the appropriate burden and standard of proof, such evidence is sufficient to support the conclusion that the pilots were guilty of gross negligence.
3. For the Rt Hon Dr John Reid MP, Secretary of State for Defence to follow the advice of that person and to act accordingly."
Last edited by BEagle; 7th Dec 2005 at 12:41.
Update to the above - I have just received an e-mail stating:
Dear (BEagle),
Thank you for your e-mail regarding the Chinook accident.
David has written to the Rt Hon John Reid MP, Secretary of State for Defence asking for a response to the points you raise.
Once he has received a reply it will be forwarded to you.
Hope this will help, Brian!
Dear (BEagle),
Thank you for your e-mail regarding the Chinook accident.
David has written to the Rt Hon John Reid MP, Secretary of State for Defence asking for a response to the points you raise.
Once he has received a reply it will be forwarded to you.
Hope this will help, Brian!
A really irritating PPRuNer
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Just popping my head back up above the parapet
Posts: 903
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Great News, BEagle.
Very many thanks for your continued support.
I wrote to both David Cameron and David Davis, but have yet to receive a reply. I'll let you know as and when they reply.
May I take this opportunity to wish everyone, irrespective of which side of the debate you are on, a Merry Christmas and a happy, healthy and prosperous New Year.
The Campaign is already set for 2006 (disgraceful as that may be!)
My best, as always.
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
Very many thanks for your continued support.
I wrote to both David Cameron and David Davis, but have yet to receive a reply. I'll let you know as and when they reply.
May I take this opportunity to wish everyone, irrespective of which side of the debate you are on, a Merry Christmas and a happy, healthy and prosperous New Year.
The Campaign is already set for 2006 (disgraceful as that may be!)
My best, as always.
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
Just a numbered other
My MP, once again, has declined to help.
'I am afraid the truth is that you and I do not entirely agree on this'
'I am sorry that we are not likely to agree on this, although I have to say your persistence does you credit.'
And the best bit:
'Finally, with some sadness, I am no longer a Shadow Defence Minister - as of yesterday.'
Maybe Cameron will replace him with someone closer to our hearts.
Brian - I think he's still smarting from an email from a certain 'irritating sod'!
'I am afraid the truth is that you and I do not entirely agree on this'
'I am sorry that we are not likely to agree on this, although I have to say your persistence does you credit.'
And the best bit:
'Finally, with some sadness, I am no longer a Shadow Defence Minister - as of yesterday.'
Maybe Cameron will replace him with someone closer to our hearts.
Brian - I think he's still smarting from an email from a certain 'irritating sod'!
Might one suggest that Mr Nick Herbert consults his colleague the PM-in-waiting in order to be more properly briefed on the matter?
Perhaps you would suggest that to him? Or should I e-mail David to express concern that one of his colleagues is so poorly briefed?
Perhaps you would suggest that to him? Or should I e-mail David to express concern that one of his colleagues is so poorly briefed?
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 18,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well, Mr Beagle, since it took TWO goes at 'Fax your MP' before he even acknowledged, I think a quick poke in the eye from Dishy David might be better
Sadly, this man replaced Howard Flight, who spoke his mind (and was sacked), and cannot even hire a researcher or secretary or whatever who can compose a letter in proppa English.
Sadly, this man replaced Howard Flight, who spoke his mind (and was sacked), and cannot even hire a researcher or secretary or whatever who can compose a letter in proppa English.
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: East Midlands
Age: 84
Posts: 1,511
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Early Day Motion
I asked my MP to sign the early day motion and he replied, politely, to the effect that he did not know enough about the matter to form an opinion on it. Fair enough, however, as he has the complete RAF Harrier force in his constituency, I think he should take an interest!
A really irritating PPRuNer
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Just popping my head back up above the parapet
Posts: 903
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Apologies, in advance to the following:
Arkroyal (especially you!), BOAC and A2QFI. The following e-mails have just been dispatched:
Dear Mr Robathan,
I understand that you were recently re-contacted by a constituent who was seeking your support of Early Day Motions 651 and 1111. Upon looking at the 10 EDMs that carry your support, it is encouraging to see 6 are linked to military matters. However, as a former shadow Defence Minister, it is very disappointing to see that you are unwilling to support the defence of the reputations of two RAF officers killed in the line of duty, and in no position to defend themselves. What is it about this subject that you object to?
May I take this opportunity to wish you well in your endeavours in getting a big red bus back on the streets of London.
Dear Mr Jackson,
I understand that you were recently contacted by a constituent who was seeking your support of Early Day Motions 651 and 1111. It is my understanding that you feel unable to support these EDMs due to a lack of subject knowledge.
May I, therefore, respectfully, point you in the direction of the Campaign web site – www.chinook-justice.org in the hope that there is sufficient information to raise your knowledge to a level that gives you confidence in signing at a time in the near future. Mr James Arbuthnot MP is the Chair of the Mull of Kintyre Campaign Group. He too, could give you a short briefing on this injustice. You could also, perhaps, speak to serving pilots at RAF Wittering next time you visit.
I hope that you may see fit to support the Campaign at some point in the future.
Thank you for your time.
Dear Mr Herbert,
I understand that you were recently contacted by a constituent who was seeking your support of Early Day Motions 651 and 1111. It is my understanding that you feel unable to support these EDMs due to a lack of subject knowledge.
May I, therefore, respectfully, point you in the direction of the Campaign web site – www.chinook-justice.org in the hope that there is sufficient information to raise your knowledge to a level that gives you confidence in signing at a time in the near future. Mr James Arbuthnot MP is the Chair of the Mull of Kintyre Campaign Group. He too, could give you a short briefing on this injustice.
Thank you for your time.
Apologies again Ark. I thought I'd send your chap high blood pressure for Christmas
In case anyone wants to know what their MP gets up to (or not, as the case may be), you can do so here: They Work For You
I'm not the Irritating Sod for nothing!!
My best to you all, as always.
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
Arkroyal (especially you!), BOAC and A2QFI. The following e-mails have just been dispatched:
Dear Mr Robathan,
I understand that you were recently re-contacted by a constituent who was seeking your support of Early Day Motions 651 and 1111. Upon looking at the 10 EDMs that carry your support, it is encouraging to see 6 are linked to military matters. However, as a former shadow Defence Minister, it is very disappointing to see that you are unwilling to support the defence of the reputations of two RAF officers killed in the line of duty, and in no position to defend themselves. What is it about this subject that you object to?
May I take this opportunity to wish you well in your endeavours in getting a big red bus back on the streets of London.
Dear Mr Jackson,
I understand that you were recently contacted by a constituent who was seeking your support of Early Day Motions 651 and 1111. It is my understanding that you feel unable to support these EDMs due to a lack of subject knowledge.
May I, therefore, respectfully, point you in the direction of the Campaign web site – www.chinook-justice.org in the hope that there is sufficient information to raise your knowledge to a level that gives you confidence in signing at a time in the near future. Mr James Arbuthnot MP is the Chair of the Mull of Kintyre Campaign Group. He too, could give you a short briefing on this injustice. You could also, perhaps, speak to serving pilots at RAF Wittering next time you visit.
I hope that you may see fit to support the Campaign at some point in the future.
Thank you for your time.
Dear Mr Herbert,
I understand that you were recently contacted by a constituent who was seeking your support of Early Day Motions 651 and 1111. It is my understanding that you feel unable to support these EDMs due to a lack of subject knowledge.
May I, therefore, respectfully, point you in the direction of the Campaign web site – www.chinook-justice.org in the hope that there is sufficient information to raise your knowledge to a level that gives you confidence in signing at a time in the near future. Mr James Arbuthnot MP is the Chair of the Mull of Kintyre Campaign Group. He too, could give you a short briefing on this injustice.
Thank you for your time.
Apologies again Ark. I thought I'd send your chap high blood pressure for Christmas
In case anyone wants to know what their MP gets up to (or not, as the case may be), you can do so here: They Work For You
I'm not the Irritating Sod for nothing!!
My best to you all, as always.
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
Hi Brian, got a letter from Mr Huhne promising signatures for both.
Have not seen his name yet so I will give him Xmas and then take a 'leaf' out of your book and dust off my 'how to be an irritating sod' books and follow it up as they say
Have not seen his name yet so I will give him Xmas and then take a 'leaf' out of your book and dust off my 'how to be an irritating sod' books and follow it up as they say
Well, it seems that Brian beat me to it.
I received a letter from David Cameron yesterday advising me that he had written to Dr Reid and would contact me again when he has had a reply from him.
I received a letter from David Cameron yesterday advising me that he had written to Dr Reid and would contact me again when he has had a reply from him.
A really irritating PPRuNer
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Just popping my head back up above the parapet
Posts: 903
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BEags,
don't forget, a poke with two sticks is better than just the one!
S&S,
many thanks. Mr Huhne is now on the dreaded hit list, so I hope for his sake, he signs!
Perhaps I'll write a book called "How to be an Irritating Sod" in time for next Christmas. Do you think the MoD will provide a Foreword?
My thanks, as always, to everyone for their ongoing support.
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
don't forget, a poke with two sticks is better than just the one!
S&S,
many thanks. Mr Huhne is now on the dreaded hit list, so I hope for his sake, he signs!
Perhaps I'll write a book called "How to be an Irritating Sod" in time for next Christmas. Do you think the MoD will provide a Foreword?
My thanks, as always, to everyone for their ongoing support.
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
Just a numbered other
No worries, Brian. Tee Hee.
I was almost on the point of writing to Robathan along the lines of respecting his right to disagree with me.
To find he's more concerned with keeping the Routemaster on the streets a hundred miles away from his constituency is an insult. (Bloody horrid things - and I know - I used to drive them for a living)
I'll write to Cameron instead, and look forward to Robathan's peevish complaint about me setting the 'irritating sod' on him again.
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Longton, Lancs, UK
Age: 80
Posts: 1,527
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
A Success!
After three rounds of correspondence my Labour MP, Michael Borrow, has now decided to sign EDM 651. Apparently he had felt unable to sign-up whilst he held the position of a PPS, but now he has left that job he has agreed to support the campaign. Interestingly, he is now a member of the Defence Select Committee which I imagine which help in a small way to bolster things?
After three rounds of correspondence my Labour MP, Michael Borrow, has now decided to sign EDM 651. Apparently he had felt unable to sign-up whilst he held the position of a PPS, but now he has left that job he has agreed to support the campaign. Interestingly, he is now a member of the Defence Select Committee which I imagine which help in a small way to bolster things?
A really irritating PPRuNer
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Just popping my head back up above the parapet
Posts: 903
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi everyone.
Received a disappointing reply from the Office of the Leader of the Opposition - although, have to admit that it's not signed by Mr Cameron.
A full A4 page thanking me and telling me that he appreciated what I had to say enormously (was he keen, or did I use the wrong size font?).
The remainder of the letter was a party political broadcast of Mr Cameron's vision of the future - apart from the last line, "He also appreciates you drawing EDM 1111 to his attention"
He should get his next letter soon
EDM 651 currently stands at 173 signatures.
EDM 1111 currently stands at 48 signatures.
Both a great testament to the efforts of everyone - Thank you all.
My best, as always.
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
Received a disappointing reply from the Office of the Leader of the Opposition - although, have to admit that it's not signed by Mr Cameron.
A full A4 page thanking me and telling me that he appreciated what I had to say enormously (was he keen, or did I use the wrong size font?).
The remainder of the letter was a party political broadcast of Mr Cameron's vision of the future - apart from the last line, "He also appreciates you drawing EDM 1111 to his attention"
He should get his next letter soon
EDM 651 currently stands at 173 signatures.
EDM 1111 currently stands at 48 signatures.
Both a great testament to the efforts of everyone - Thank you all.
My best, as always.
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
Join Date: May 2005
Location: London
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Official Recogntion?
Just a snippet of information for you:
Despite the difficulties of this case, Parliament obviolusly considers this issue sufficiently important to place it within one of their 'Parliament Explained' Booklets on the web:
http://www.explore.parliament.uk/cms...acherses03.pdf
(See top of page 3 where there is a news cutting montage)
How ironic that none of its elected members seem to be able to resolve the matter satisfactorily! Happy New Year and keep up the good work.
Despite the difficulties of this case, Parliament obviolusly considers this issue sufficiently important to place it within one of their 'Parliament Explained' Booklets on the web:
http://www.explore.parliament.uk/cms...acherses03.pdf
(See top of page 3 where there is a news cutting montage)
How ironic that none of its elected members seem to be able to resolve the matter satisfactorily! Happy New Year and keep up the good work.
A really irritating PPRuNer
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Just popping my head back up above the parapet
Posts: 903
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks Banana Boy,
nice to see that the Campaign appears in the most unlikely of places. I think I'll take it as an acknowledgement that they have now got the message that we won't go away!
2005 was a difficult year, due to the loss of Rick's father, John.
However, there have been many positive moments too:
- EDMs on a subject over 11 years old continue to attract over 140 signatures.
- The new leader of the Conservative party is a keen supporter.
- The support recieved by the Campaign continues to be truly uplifting. At no point has it wained or been side-tracked.
- The Campaign's determination to suceed strengthens year upon year.
- Scottish and Irish Air Cadets have pledged to repair and restore the memorial cairn and footpath leading to it.
- I have had yet another opportunity to annoy Arkroyal's MP
As 2006 approaches, may I take this opportuinty to thank each and every one of you for your support. We would not be where we are without you, and believe me when I say we are a very prominent Campaign within Parliament. I look forward to working with you all in, what I pray will be, our final Campaign year. Again, I pledge my total support to the families of Jon Tapper and Rick Cook. You have my support for as long as you need, and my friendship for as long as you want.
To all with an interest in this injustice, may I finally say, whatever you do, and wherever you may be, I wish you and yours a happy, healthy and prosperous 2006.
My best to you all, as always,
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
Edited to add a particular heartfelt thanks to Danny, and all at PPRuNe for your continued support, use of what must be a huge amount of bandwidth, and for being the medium that allows the Campaign to reach our suporters around the globe. We would definately be at a disadvantage without you. Thank you.
nice to see that the Campaign appears in the most unlikely of places. I think I'll take it as an acknowledgement that they have now got the message that we won't go away!
2005 was a difficult year, due to the loss of Rick's father, John.
However, there have been many positive moments too:
- EDMs on a subject over 11 years old continue to attract over 140 signatures.
- The new leader of the Conservative party is a keen supporter.
- The support recieved by the Campaign continues to be truly uplifting. At no point has it wained or been side-tracked.
- The Campaign's determination to suceed strengthens year upon year.
- Scottish and Irish Air Cadets have pledged to repair and restore the memorial cairn and footpath leading to it.
- I have had yet another opportunity to annoy Arkroyal's MP
As 2006 approaches, may I take this opportuinty to thank each and every one of you for your support. We would not be where we are without you, and believe me when I say we are a very prominent Campaign within Parliament. I look forward to working with you all in, what I pray will be, our final Campaign year. Again, I pledge my total support to the families of Jon Tapper and Rick Cook. You have my support for as long as you need, and my friendship for as long as you want.
To all with an interest in this injustice, may I finally say, whatever you do, and wherever you may be, I wish you and yours a happy, healthy and prosperous 2006.
My best to you all, as always,
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
Edited to add a particular heartfelt thanks to Danny, and all at PPRuNe for your continued support, use of what must be a huge amount of bandwidth, and for being the medium that allows the Campaign to reach our suporters around the globe. We would definately be at a disadvantage without you. Thank you.
Last edited by Brian Dixon; 31st Dec 2005 at 13:57.
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: England
Posts: 286
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Received MOD FO letter
Received my form response from Adam Ingram via my MP. Although much of it is the same as other forum members have received, it did contain a paragraph which I have not seen posted before.
Any suggestions for the reply? In particular does anyone have open source details of the lawsuit the MoD brought againts the manufacturers.
EG
Dear David,
Thank you for your letter to John reid concerning the email from your constituent about EDM651. I am responding in view of my responsibility for this issue as Minister of State for the Armed Forces.
EG raises a number of points that I shall answer in turn. Firstly, there is no question that Chinook ZD576 was anything other than a fully serviceable aircraft. The same can be said of the remainder of the Chinook HC2 fleet. Despite suggestions from some quarters, the suspension of trials at Boscombe Down had no bearing on this accident; a view accepted by the select committee.
EG is mistaken in his belief that RAF regulations prohibited a Board of Inquiry from finding deceased aircrew guilty of negligence. This was not the case at the time, although the regulations was changed subsequently.
Early Day Motion 651 was lodged by Henry Bellingham MP on 20 July. The motion notes the conclusions of the Fatal Accident Inquiry, the Public Accounts Committee and the House of Lords Select Committee, all of which rejected the finding of negligence against the two pilots of chinook ZD576. The motion also supports the General Assemby's pastoral concern for all families affected by the accident and, in light of changes to the RAF's regulations pursuant to negligence, calls upon the government to overturn the finding of gross negligence.
The crash of Chinook ZD576 is the most extensively examined accident in the history of UK military aviation. The Ministry of Defence is very aware that many have found it difficult to accept the findings of the RAF board of inquiry, but in the 11 years since this tragic accident, the Ministry of Defence has examined all the complex technical, legal and airmanship issues raised by those opposed to the finding, but has found nothing that undermines it. The Government ratains every confidence in the Judgement of the reviewing officers, but remains prepared to review its position should any compelling new factual evidence be brought forward.
Thank you for your letter to John reid concerning the email from your constituent about EDM651. I am responding in view of my responsibility for this issue as Minister of State for the Armed Forces.
EG raises a number of points that I shall answer in turn. Firstly, there is no question that Chinook ZD576 was anything other than a fully serviceable aircraft. The same can be said of the remainder of the Chinook HC2 fleet. Despite suggestions from some quarters, the suspension of trials at Boscombe Down had no bearing on this accident; a view accepted by the select committee.
EG is mistaken in his belief that RAF regulations prohibited a Board of Inquiry from finding deceased aircrew guilty of negligence. This was not the case at the time, although the regulations was changed subsequently.
Early Day Motion 651 was lodged by Henry Bellingham MP on 20 July. The motion notes the conclusions of the Fatal Accident Inquiry, the Public Accounts Committee and the House of Lords Select Committee, all of which rejected the finding of negligence against the two pilots of chinook ZD576. The motion also supports the General Assemby's pastoral concern for all families affected by the accident and, in light of changes to the RAF's regulations pursuant to negligence, calls upon the government to overturn the finding of gross negligence.
The crash of Chinook ZD576 is the most extensively examined accident in the history of UK military aviation. The Ministry of Defence is very aware that many have found it difficult to accept the findings of the RAF board of inquiry, but in the 11 years since this tragic accident, the Ministry of Defence has examined all the complex technical, legal and airmanship issues raised by those opposed to the finding, but has found nothing that undermines it. The Government ratains every confidence in the Judgement of the reviewing officers, but remains prepared to review its position should any compelling new factual evidence be brought forward.
EG