Chinook - Still Hitting Back 3 (Merged)
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Hi everyone,
just to let you know that the campaign is still here and still as determined as ever!
I have received a letter from the MoD apologising for the delay in responding to my latest request for disclosure under the FoIA. They have promised to send everything to me as soon as they can.
Once I have it, I'll let you know where the campaign will go next. (I'll also be sending off the next request for further document disclosure!)
I will be writing to John Reid and forwarding a copy of my last letter to Mr Hoon. You may recall this was the comparative document between the decision making process behind the verdict of the Chinook accident and another fatal aircraft accident. I will ask Mr Reid to answer the points that Mr Ingram dismissed out of hand.
My best, as always.
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
just to let you know that the campaign is still here and still as determined as ever!
I have received a letter from the MoD apologising for the delay in responding to my latest request for disclosure under the FoIA. They have promised to send everything to me as soon as they can.
Once I have it, I'll let you know where the campaign will go next. (I'll also be sending off the next request for further document disclosure!)
I will be writing to John Reid and forwarding a copy of my last letter to Mr Hoon. You may recall this was the comparative document between the decision making process behind the verdict of the Chinook accident and another fatal aircraft accident. I will ask Mr Reid to answer the points that Mr Ingram dismissed out of hand.
My best, as always.
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
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Hi everyone,
reply was received from the MoD yesterday, but due to the tragic events in London, I thought it appropriate to wait for 24 hours before posting.
I have had disclosed the sanitised witness statements given to the BoI by those called to appear before them. I am currently going through them and will let you know if there is anything to progress from them.
I asked for copies of all correspondence between Air Chief Marshal Wratten, Air Marshal Day and ZD576 Board members (or any combnation of the above), with regards to the Inquiry into the accident of Chinook HC2 ZD576. I was very suprised to receive the answer that a check has been made of the files and there is nothing that falls within the scope of my enquiry!!
Either my question is unclear, too specific, or no-one communicated with anyone! Staggering!! I'll definitely be writing back making a further request (although worded differently).
Permission is being sought by the MoD to disclose the Textron "White Paper" to the MoD in which Textron answers Boscombe Down's criticisms of FADEC. If, and when, this is sent to me, I will let you know if there is anything that can be developed from it.
I asked for a copy of the BoI for the Chinook that self-destructed during testing at Wilmington, USA, but was advised that the Chinook was, at that time, an asset of MoD(PE) and not the RAF. Therefore no BoI was carried out. I may be revisiting this one with a differently worded question too!
As always, I'm grateful to the MoD for their patience with me. However, I have plenty left that I will be contacting them about - both new documents and reworded requests for those I still wish to see.
Alternatively, if they remove the unsustainable verdict from the record of Jon and Rick, I'll happily go away!
Things continue with regards the campaign and we will need your support in the near future, so please have pen and paper at the ready!
My best, as always.
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
reply was received from the MoD yesterday, but due to the tragic events in London, I thought it appropriate to wait for 24 hours before posting.
I have had disclosed the sanitised witness statements given to the BoI by those called to appear before them. I am currently going through them and will let you know if there is anything to progress from them.
I asked for copies of all correspondence between Air Chief Marshal Wratten, Air Marshal Day and ZD576 Board members (or any combnation of the above), with regards to the Inquiry into the accident of Chinook HC2 ZD576. I was very suprised to receive the answer that a check has been made of the files and there is nothing that falls within the scope of my enquiry!!
Either my question is unclear, too specific, or no-one communicated with anyone! Staggering!! I'll definitely be writing back making a further request (although worded differently).
Permission is being sought by the MoD to disclose the Textron "White Paper" to the MoD in which Textron answers Boscombe Down's criticisms of FADEC. If, and when, this is sent to me, I will let you know if there is anything that can be developed from it.
I asked for a copy of the BoI for the Chinook that self-destructed during testing at Wilmington, USA, but was advised that the Chinook was, at that time, an asset of MoD(PE) and not the RAF. Therefore no BoI was carried out. I may be revisiting this one with a differently worded question too!
As always, I'm grateful to the MoD for their patience with me. However, I have plenty left that I will be contacting them about - both new documents and reworded requests for those I still wish to see.
Alternatively, if they remove the unsustainable verdict from the record of Jon and Rick, I'll happily go away!
Things continue with regards the campaign and we will need your support in the near future, so please have pen and paper at the ready!
My best, as always.
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
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For the person making a frivilous complaint that this thread should be at the top is out of touch! Sticky threads go above each other with a new post not action by mods.
I trust that satisfies your question. Just watch. So, when a post is made on the other sticky it will change places - geddit?
PPP
I trust that satisfies your question. Just watch. So, when a post is made on the other sticky it will change places - geddit?
PPP
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Brian Dixon,
The BOI is part of a formal legal process; so there should not be any formal, or informal, communication between the different layers within the military structure regarding the accident (except to deal with matters that involve Flight Safety) until such time as the BOI are ready to present their findings. The sole exception would be, I believe, an enquiry as to the expected duration of any particular phase of the enquiry.
There appears to be at least one "Legal Eagle" who contributes to this thread who may be able to give you a more binding assessment.
The BOI is part of a formal legal process; so there should not be any formal, or informal, communication between the different layers within the military structure regarding the accident (except to deal with matters that involve Flight Safety) until such time as the BOI are ready to present their findings. The sole exception would be, I believe, an enquiry as to the expected duration of any particular phase of the enquiry.
There appears to be at least one "Legal Eagle" who contributes to this thread who may be able to give you a more binding assessment.
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Hi again everyone.
It's time for your help again, please.
A new Early Day Motion has been tabled by Mr Henry Bellingham MP requesting that the Government overturn the verdict of Gross Negligence.
The EDM is number 651 and the wording is as follows:
That this House urges the Government to ensure that the Ministry of Defence revisits the issue of the Chinook helicopter crash on the Mull of Kintyre on 2nd June 1994; notes that the General Assembly noted the findings of the Fatal Accident Inquiry held in Paisley, the Public Accounts Committee of the House of Commons and the House of Lords Select Committee, all of which rejected the findings of gross negligence by the RAF Board of Inquiry against flight lieutenants Jonathan Tapper and Richard Cook and of the House of Commons Defence Select Committee; supports the General Assembly's pastoral concern for all the families affected by the accident; recognises that the Royal Air Force's rules on fatal accidents have subsequently been changed, such that the Chinook pilots would not have been blamed after their deaths; and calls on the Government to overturn the verdict of gross negligence ascribed to the deceased pilots in the 11th year following the accident.
Link: EDM Website
As before, could you please write to your MP and ask that they sign the EDM. For those with Comservative MPs, it may be prudent to remind them that it is now formal Conservative policy that the current verdict will be subjected to the scrutiny of a High Court Judge, upon the party's return to office.
A high signature count would assist in getting the matter back into the political arena where we can once again have a little chat with John Reid.
As always, we are eternally grateful for your continued support.
My best, as always.
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
It's time for your help again, please.
A new Early Day Motion has been tabled by Mr Henry Bellingham MP requesting that the Government overturn the verdict of Gross Negligence.
The EDM is number 651 and the wording is as follows:
That this House urges the Government to ensure that the Ministry of Defence revisits the issue of the Chinook helicopter crash on the Mull of Kintyre on 2nd June 1994; notes that the General Assembly noted the findings of the Fatal Accident Inquiry held in Paisley, the Public Accounts Committee of the House of Commons and the House of Lords Select Committee, all of which rejected the findings of gross negligence by the RAF Board of Inquiry against flight lieutenants Jonathan Tapper and Richard Cook and of the House of Commons Defence Select Committee; supports the General Assembly's pastoral concern for all the families affected by the accident; recognises that the Royal Air Force's rules on fatal accidents have subsequently been changed, such that the Chinook pilots would not have been blamed after their deaths; and calls on the Government to overturn the verdict of gross negligence ascribed to the deceased pilots in the 11th year following the accident.
Link: EDM Website
As before, could you please write to your MP and ask that they sign the EDM. For those with Comservative MPs, it may be prudent to remind them that it is now formal Conservative policy that the current verdict will be subjected to the scrutiny of a High Court Judge, upon the party's return to office.
A high signature count would assist in getting the matter back into the political arena where we can once again have a little chat with John Reid.
As always, we are eternally grateful for your continued support.
My best, as always.
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/norfolk/4732755.stm
What is going on? Things are bad enough without this!
What is going on? Things are bad enough without this!
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Brian
Letter on its way from the Gulf to my MP, who is probably holidaying in the Maldives !
JT2
""""""Mr Tapper added: "They claimed they didn't have my address and tried to blame it on a flight lieutenant at Odiham.
"It does appear in the RAF that they always want to blame a flight lieutenant. """"""
Cool under pressure or what ?
Letter on its way from the Gulf to my MP, who is probably holidaying in the Maldives !
JT2
""""""Mr Tapper added: "They claimed they didn't have my address and tried to blame it on a flight lieutenant at Odiham.
"It does appear in the RAF that they always want to blame a flight lieutenant. """"""
Cool under pressure or what ?
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Every day? the 3 letter trigraph used to change. You had a choice of squadron callsign (eg Lifter) or use the trigraph and number. Once in contact with ATC it was usually shortened to one letter plus a number.
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EDM
Brian
Just had a prompt reply from my MP re the EDM. He ends his letter with the following:
"You asked for my support by signing EDM 651. In my experience, Early Day Motions are never debated in the Commons and are therefore ineffective. I think it is much better to take up the matters directly with Ministers, as they form government policy and are therefore accountable to us for answers.
I will write to the responsible Minister at the MOD to ask what the government intends to do to redress the situation. I will be in touch again when I have a reply."
So the latter part is a good thing (although I suspect we can all guess what the Minister's reply will be), but is this a common view of MP's with respect to EDM's? If so, are there any particular arguments one can use to persuade them that it is worthwhile signing?
Just had a prompt reply from my MP re the EDM. He ends his letter with the following:
"You asked for my support by signing EDM 651. In my experience, Early Day Motions are never debated in the Commons and are therefore ineffective. I think it is much better to take up the matters directly with Ministers, as they form government policy and are therefore accountable to us for answers.
I will write to the responsible Minister at the MOD to ask what the government intends to do to redress the situation. I will be in touch again when I have a reply."
So the latter part is a good thing (although I suspect we can all guess what the Minister's reply will be), but is this a common view of MP's with respect to EDM's? If so, are there any particular arguments one can use to persuade them that it is worthwhile signing?
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Walter Kennedy,
So, you are back!
An aircraft operating within the immediate area of its operating base could use a local callsign.
When operating outside its local area, or in transit to another airfield, it would use the trigraph so that its point of origin could be established immediately in the event of an emergency.
So, you are back!
An aircraft operating within the immediate area of its operating base could use a local callsign.
When operating outside its local area, or in transit to another airfield, it would use the trigraph so that its point of origin could be established immediately in the event of an emergency.
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Thank you for your prompt replies – I was not at all familiar with trigraphs - I’m just trying to clear up some details while (still!) waiting for that journo contact re radar track witness.
The words of that terrorist that the govt does talk to springs to mind:
“We haven’t gone away, y’know.”.
Regarding the trigraph, for it to be of use to the next airfield (or ATC center) “…so that its point of origin could be established immediately in the event of an emergency …”, would this mean that the aircraft’s flight plan would have to be known at that airfield (or ATC center) – or would the numbers refer uniquely to an airfield (ie the point of departure) or a particular waypoint?
And would using the trigraph rather than a more generic callsign indicate that there was a problem or that a particular service was about to be requested – eg say a position fix?
(Remember that the last radio call recorded was well away from the departure airfield and was made to Scot Mil at Prestwick which was not the destination.)
The words of that terrorist that the govt does talk to springs to mind:
“We haven’t gone away, y’know.”.
Regarding the trigraph, for it to be of use to the next airfield (or ATC center) “…so that its point of origin could be established immediately in the event of an emergency …”, would this mean that the aircraft’s flight plan would have to be known at that airfield (or ATC center) – or would the numbers refer uniquely to an airfield (ie the point of departure) or a particular waypoint?
And would using the trigraph rather than a more generic callsign indicate that there was a problem or that a particular service was about to be requested – eg say a position fix?
(Remember that the last radio call recorded was well away from the departure airfield and was made to Scot Mil at Prestwick which was not the destination.)
"Regarding the trigraph, for it to be of use to the next airfield (or ATC center) “…so that its point of origin could be established immediately in the event of an emergency …”, would this mean that the aircraft’s flight plan would have to be known at that airfield (or ATC center) – or would the numbers refer uniquely to an airfield (ie the point of departure) or a particular waypoint?"
Trigraphs are allocated to individual units. Either at station or squadron level. So if the callsign was something like 6UG 56, that would go on the flight plan (if one was required - not a universal requirement in the UK outside Regulated Airspace) and the a/c would usually abbreviate its callsign to G 56.
"And would using the trigraph rather than a more generic callsign indicate that there was a problem or that a particular service was about to be requested – eg say a position fix?
(Remember that the last radio call recorded was well away from the departure airfield and was made to Scot Mil at Prestwick which was not the destination.)"
No.
Typical example, a pair of fast jets with a formation callsign of 'Hammer 51' and 'Hammer 52' might have individual callsigns of, for example, 5TY 72 and 5TY 84. That's too much of a mouthful for multiple radio changes and check-ins, so they'd use 'Hammer' for intra-formation and tactical chat and the leader would use the 5TY callsigns with some ATCRUs.
Trigraphs are allocated to individual units. Either at station or squadron level. So if the callsign was something like 6UG 56, that would go on the flight plan (if one was required - not a universal requirement in the UK outside Regulated Airspace) and the a/c would usually abbreviate its callsign to G 56.
"And would using the trigraph rather than a more generic callsign indicate that there was a problem or that a particular service was about to be requested – eg say a position fix?
(Remember that the last radio call recorded was well away from the departure airfield and was made to Scot Mil at Prestwick which was not the destination.)"
No.
Typical example, a pair of fast jets with a formation callsign of 'Hammer 51' and 'Hammer 52' might have individual callsigns of, for example, 5TY 72 and 5TY 84. That's too much of a mouthful for multiple radio changes and check-ins, so they'd use 'Hammer' for intra-formation and tactical chat and the leader would use the 5TY callsigns with some ATCRUs.
Last edited by BEagle; 7th Aug 2005 at 20:10.
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Beagle
Thanks for an excellent and informative reply.
I can see now nothing anomalous about the radio call - sorry about the digression.
It's a shame other aspects could not have so quickly been addressed in the past - perhaps you guys could revisit them in house?
Thanks for an excellent and informative reply.
I can see now nothing anomalous about the radio call - sorry about the digression.
It's a shame other aspects could not have so quickly been addressed in the past - perhaps you guys could revisit them in house?
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In the interests of fairness, radar recordings from the Prestwick ATC Centre will have been held and stored, SOP for any fatal accident, so any data would not be a fleeting memory but presumably can be checked on replay.
He heard nothing on the radio, the radio replay showed a single call from the Chinook, obviously missed by the controller (although the books do say to call 3 times before assuming a unit is closed).
I personally videotaped the radar replay for the BOI. Well what there was to see, which was nothing. Radars available to Prestwick Control centre are many and various but the nearest in this instance were at Tiree and Lowther Hill.
I do not have a fleeting memory of this incident, it is so unusual as to be very clear in my mind, only the 2nd time I videotaped an incident.
NATS and the RAF are joint and integrated, there would be no reason for NATS to withold any data. AFAIK the radar tape was impounded until such time as the BOI etc. handed it back. The video I made was sent to the BOI and they presumably still have it.
Brian is aware of this from a PM to him a couple of years ago at least.
BD
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BDiONU,
thanks for stating again the situation regarding the Radar Tapes, and I can concur to everyone that what you say is absolutely correct (not that you need my say-so).
Just to remind everyone about the Early Day Motion (number 651). Despite it being the Parliamentary recess, please write to your MP and ask that they sign in upon their return to Westminster. My thanks to everyone who has done so already (including Pilgrim 101 and The AerosCo).
Also, just to update you all about the Campaign progress - We are looking at collating contact details of our supporters with a view to sending out regular updates and requests for assistance. As always, I will post here, but if you wish to be included on the list, please send details via the campaign website. No details will ever be passed to a third party. If you could list your Constituency and MP (if known), and also any areas of specialisation you may have (engineer, comms, pilot etc). It may be that we contact our 'specialists' when formulating Parliamentary Questions, questions to the MoD etc, to ensure that everything is covered.
Obviously, there is no obligation to send details if you don't want to. Your support remains a vital part of the Campaign for which we sincerely thank you all.
My best, as always.
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
thanks for stating again the situation regarding the Radar Tapes, and I can concur to everyone that what you say is absolutely correct (not that you need my say-so).
Just to remind everyone about the Early Day Motion (number 651). Despite it being the Parliamentary recess, please write to your MP and ask that they sign in upon their return to Westminster. My thanks to everyone who has done so already (including Pilgrim 101 and The AerosCo).
Also, just to update you all about the Campaign progress - We are looking at collating contact details of our supporters with a view to sending out regular updates and requests for assistance. As always, I will post here, but if you wish to be included on the list, please send details via the campaign website. No details will ever be passed to a third party. If you could list your Constituency and MP (if known), and also any areas of specialisation you may have (engineer, comms, pilot etc). It may be that we contact our 'specialists' when formulating Parliamentary Questions, questions to the MoD etc, to ensure that everything is covered.
Obviously, there is no obligation to send details if you don't want to. Your support remains a vital part of the Campaign for which we sincerely thank you all.
My best, as always.
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
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bdionu
Are you saying that the following article was baseless and false?
06 Jul 1994: The Guardian - Page 3 - (141 words)
Radar recording 'shows helicopter hit hillside due to navigation error'
By: By OWEN BOWCOTT
RECORDINGS of military radar tracking the RAF helicopter which crashed on the Mull of Kintyre last month show it flew straight into the hillside without altering course, writes Owen Bowcott .
The flight path, revealed by air traffic control sources yesterday,
reinforces suspicions that the accident was caused by a navigational error.
Twenty-nine people, including senior security staff from Northern Ireland, died on June 2 when the RAF Chinook exploded on hitting a headland on Kintyre's southern tip, reported to have been shrouded in fog.
A controller who had seen the recordings, and requested his identity not be revealed, said: 'The Chinook looks like it went more or less straight into the hillside. There was no distress signal. It all points toward some sort of navigational error. The pilot must have misjudged his position. He only needed to be half a mile to one side.'
Are you saying that the following article was baseless and false?
06 Jul 1994: The Guardian - Page 3 - (141 words)
Radar recording 'shows helicopter hit hillside due to navigation error'
By: By OWEN BOWCOTT
RECORDINGS of military radar tracking the RAF helicopter which crashed on the Mull of Kintyre last month show it flew straight into the hillside without altering course, writes Owen Bowcott .
The flight path, revealed by air traffic control sources yesterday,
reinforces suspicions that the accident was caused by a navigational error.
Twenty-nine people, including senior security staff from Northern Ireland, died on June 2 when the RAF Chinook exploded on hitting a headland on Kintyre's southern tip, reported to have been shrouded in fog.
A controller who had seen the recordings, and requested his identity not be revealed, said: 'The Chinook looks like it went more or less straight into the hillside. There was no distress signal. It all points toward some sort of navigational error. The pilot must have misjudged his position. He only needed to be half a mile to one side.'
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walter kennedy
I think that particular piece of reporting falls within the same category as the Sunday Express "Exclusive" that arrests were expected following a SIB investigation that showed that the aircrafts flight instrumentation had been tampered with by disaffected technicians.
That category is Bull***t!!
I think that particular piece of reporting falls within the same category as the Sunday Express "Exclusive" that arrests were expected following a SIB investigation that showed that the aircrafts flight instrumentation had been tampered with by disaffected technicians.
That category is Bull***t!!
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Having followed the campaign for justice for the 2 pilots of ZD576 on the w.w.w. over the last couple of years, I recently found this thread whilst googling for some up to date information.
And I would just like to say well done to everyone who have tirelessly campaigned to have the two pilots exonerated and I hope that all your hard work pays off sooner rather than later.
And I would just like to say well done to everyone who have tirelessly campaigned to have the two pilots exonerated and I hope that all your hard work pays off sooner rather than later.