The ADF buys another Lemon
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What do you want from this thread?
Dude, I can only tell you what I know so many times. Some of your information is not correct, or is viewed from the perspective that Black Hawk is the only answer
The Black Hawk can not carry same full mission equipment as MRH 90 and even if it did, would still be limited by seats. MRH 90 carries 50% more in combat order, and up to 18 pax with less kit.
It can be expected to be more reliable because it is a 4th gen rotorcraft. The reason our Black Hawks didn't fly and US Black Hawks do is the size of the maintenance budget. NB my point about 13 years of sustainment.
The ramp is only weight limited when moving or when half-way down. You can drive a light vehicle into the acft using the ramp on the ground. It's like saying the seatbelts are useless as tourniquets. Technically true, but it's not what the seatbelts are for.
Crashworthiness is far more complex than big tyres and big suspension. Flail space, stroking seats, emergency exits, cabin integrity all play a part. If it was all wheels and tyres, the Southern Cross would be the Paragon of crashworthiness.
Aircrew fatigue has always, and always will cause more crashes than enemy fire over the life of an acft - even in an operational theatre. That's why climate control is a good idea.
Who says the HMDs can't be used in a dusty environment? The HMD will get dusty, but that doesn't make it unuseable. In any case, FLIR can be displayed on any of the MFD. I have no idea why you would want to look at something 10M away with FLIR. If you are mixing it up with the IITs, then maybe you are confused about Hyperstereopsis. This is a known issue, no worse than the laundry list of visual illusions we learn about when using NVGs for the first time.
When you say 'on our own' in rference to maintenance and spares, do you mean like in Timor, Bougainville, Solomons, Aceh and every deployment we have made without US Army parts and maintenance support?
If you don't see any benefit in tip lights, MFD's and auto hover, you are either:
a. a day only pilot, and you should be quiet now, or
b. you can not see any other role for Army aircraft than land-based day Airmobile, and, well, you should be quiet now.
I am posting to refute your claims because they are one-sided and mainly incorrect. As I have said before, the aircraft will be part of a great capability in time, and no-one is denying there are issues to resolve. Nothing you have posted is news, except for the stuff you have assumed or misinterpreted.
The Black Hawk can not carry same full mission equipment as MRH 90 and even if it did, would still be limited by seats. MRH 90 carries 50% more in combat order, and up to 18 pax with less kit.
It can be expected to be more reliable because it is a 4th gen rotorcraft. The reason our Black Hawks didn't fly and US Black Hawks do is the size of the maintenance budget. NB my point about 13 years of sustainment.
The ramp is only weight limited when moving or when half-way down. You can drive a light vehicle into the acft using the ramp on the ground. It's like saying the seatbelts are useless as tourniquets. Technically true, but it's not what the seatbelts are for.
Crashworthiness is far more complex than big tyres and big suspension. Flail space, stroking seats, emergency exits, cabin integrity all play a part. If it was all wheels and tyres, the Southern Cross would be the Paragon of crashworthiness.
Aircrew fatigue has always, and always will cause more crashes than enemy fire over the life of an acft - even in an operational theatre. That's why climate control is a good idea.
Who says the HMDs can't be used in a dusty environment? The HMD will get dusty, but that doesn't make it unuseable. In any case, FLIR can be displayed on any of the MFD. I have no idea why you would want to look at something 10M away with FLIR. If you are mixing it up with the IITs, then maybe you are confused about Hyperstereopsis. This is a known issue, no worse than the laundry list of visual illusions we learn about when using NVGs for the first time.
When you say 'on our own' in rference to maintenance and spares, do you mean like in Timor, Bougainville, Solomons, Aceh and every deployment we have made without US Army parts and maintenance support?
If you don't see any benefit in tip lights, MFD's and auto hover, you are either:
a. a day only pilot, and you should be quiet now, or
b. you can not see any other role for Army aircraft than land-based day Airmobile, and, well, you should be quiet now.
I am posting to refute your claims because they are one-sided and mainly incorrect. As I have said before, the aircraft will be part of a great capability in time, and no-one is denying there are issues to resolve. Nothing you have posted is news, except for the stuff you have assumed or misinterpreted.
Music Quizmeister
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Afghan:
My final offering.
NH-90 was NOT purchased as a Battlefield Support Helo - is was acquirred as a MULTI-ROLE Helicopter.
I remember having an argument with an Army type (who had only ever flown Kiowa) about the need for two doors when going into contested LZ's - another Army flyer nearby chirped up and stated that Air Assault is NOT an AAAVN role - airmobile is yes.
I'm starting to side with some of EmerGov's thoughts.
You stated in your post your loyalties: you mentioned your friends - well - your comments about supposed lack of understanding about requirements etc in the selection of the NH-90 is (in my opinion) a direct attack against some of my friends.
I would still doubt your version of the Cabinet consideration - Finance "rolling" Defence for a more expensive option - never happened in my 4 years!!!!!!!!! What's that quote from Topgun? "BULL****".
If you are a serving officer (and you indicate you are), in my opinion you are beneath contempt for these "attacks" on officers/staff who worked in the project (and I didn't work in the project office).
That is my opinion - and as you have stated so well and so clearly - we are ALL entitled to our OWN opinions.
Goodbye
My final offering.
NH-90 was NOT purchased as a Battlefield Support Helo - is was acquirred as a MULTI-ROLE Helicopter.
I remember having an argument with an Army type (who had only ever flown Kiowa) about the need for two doors when going into contested LZ's - another Army flyer nearby chirped up and stated that Air Assault is NOT an AAAVN role - airmobile is yes.
I'm starting to side with some of EmerGov's thoughts.
You stated in your post your loyalties: you mentioned your friends - well - your comments about supposed lack of understanding about requirements etc in the selection of the NH-90 is (in my opinion) a direct attack against some of my friends.
I would still doubt your version of the Cabinet consideration - Finance "rolling" Defence for a more expensive option - never happened in my 4 years!!!!!!!!! What's that quote from Topgun? "BULL****".
If you are a serving officer (and you indicate you are), in my opinion you are beneath contempt for these "attacks" on officers/staff who worked in the project (and I didn't work in the project office).
That is my opinion - and as you have stated so well and so clearly - we are ALL entitled to our OWN opinions.
Goodbye
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AFGHAN,
While I have spent time in green it was not in AAVN, so I am looking at all of this from an almost layman point of view. The problem, as I see it, is this;
You will not convince people who work on the project, it's paying their bills. I appreciate your view 'from the coalface' and admire your passion. I can't speak knowledgeably about the merits of the BH v MRH so I won't even try, but if what you say about it's limitations are correct (and unlike other posters in this thread, I have no reason to believe they aren't) it would seem that the magical process that is Defence Procurement has fallen for the sales pitch once again. Of course an all expenses paid trip to France sounds very nice..
I take it all AAVN potential pilots will now do the full 2FTS course to gain the neccessary instrument training?
While I have spent time in green it was not in AAVN, so I am looking at all of this from an almost layman point of view. The problem, as I see it, is this;
You will not convince people who work on the project, it's paying their bills. I appreciate your view 'from the coalface' and admire your passion. I can't speak knowledgeably about the merits of the BH v MRH so I won't even try, but if what you say about it's limitations are correct (and unlike other posters in this thread, I have no reason to believe they aren't) it would seem that the magical process that is Defence Procurement has fallen for the sales pitch once again. Of course an all expenses paid trip to France sounds very nice..
I take it all AAVN potential pilots will now do the full 2FTS course to gain the neccessary instrument training?
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Been watching this thread for a while, and can't believe some of the dribble that is being posted.
Get over Vietnam, it was 40 years ago, things have changed.
NH90 anyone tried to put troops into the seats
Run down a ramp straight at the tail rotor
Don't start on how high it is, we all know about slopes etc
Door guns are useless if they can't be employed
Great display helicopter, but replace a Black Hawk, me thinks not.
Right behind you Afghan, keep up the good work
Get over Vietnam, it was 40 years ago, things have changed.
NH90 anyone tried to put troops into the seats
Run down a ramp straight at the tail rotor
Don't start on how high it is, we all know about slopes etcDoor guns are useless if they can't be employed
Great display helicopter, but replace a Black Hawk, me thinks not.
Right behind you Afghan, keep up the good work
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Afghan,
Tell you what. PM me with your source about the Cabinet decision. If what he says is true, he can show me documented evidence of same. If not - it's a myth!!!! Stop trying to divert discussion by bringing up Collins. NH-90 vs UH-60L (or was it M - you changed tack half way thru) is the issue - prove what you and your source claim..........
If he can prove to me that it happened like he told you - I'll publish an unreserved apology to you here, under my real name (and it should be pretty easy for anyone to work out who I am given the details i have already put here).
No, I'll not ask the Brigadier, have YOUR source prove it to me.
Oh - and if he can't - YOU publish the apology here, under YOUR real name (proven of course by your source naming you and me verifying it by you providing your PM Keys number)..............
Tell you what. PM me with your source about the Cabinet decision. If what he says is true, he can show me documented evidence of same. If not - it's a myth!!!! Stop trying to divert discussion by bringing up Collins. NH-90 vs UH-60L (or was it M - you changed tack half way thru) is the issue - prove what you and your source claim..........
If he can prove to me that it happened like he told you - I'll publish an unreserved apology to you here, under my real name (and it should be pretty easy for anyone to work out who I am given the details i have already put here).
No, I'll not ask the Brigadier, have YOUR source prove it to me.
Oh - and if he can't - YOU publish the apology here, under YOUR real name (proven of course by your source naming you and me verifying it by you providing your PM Keys number)..............
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Shame to see the debate descend into a personal slanging match with one party taking his bat and ball and walking off the field in a huff.
What most of the rest of us would like to be assured of is whether AAVN will be able to provide a credible ongoing helicopter presence in the field and in sufficient numbers should push ever come to shove on a large scale (or even a small scale!) one day in the foreseeable future.
What I've read here doesn't fill me with any confidence that it will be able to do so, even after the new, (in many people's opinion too) high-tech (for its role) system has "matured".
I can't help but think the end users of the AAVN product, the down and dirty green machine, just want a helicopter that works, and continues to work, (as well as being available to many if not most of the units that will be demainding it) in very the basic conditions they will encounter in the field.
How many people out there think the Tiger and the NH-90 are going to do this?
Even after they've "matured"?
What most of the rest of us would like to be assured of is whether AAVN will be able to provide a credible ongoing helicopter presence in the field and in sufficient numbers should push ever come to shove on a large scale (or even a small scale!) one day in the foreseeable future.
What I've read here doesn't fill me with any confidence that it will be able to do so, even after the new, (in many people's opinion too) high-tech (for its role) system has "matured".
I can't help but think the end users of the AAVN product, the down and dirty green machine, just want a helicopter that works, and continues to work, (as well as being available to many if not most of the units that will be demainding it) in very the basic conditions they will encounter in the field.
How many people out there think the Tiger and the NH-90 are going to do this?
Even after they've "matured"?
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Wiley - there will NEVER be enough Airlift (or more correctly, the ADF will never be able to afford enough to satisfy requirements). A few of us believe the answer to you first question is yes (given my caveat above that more would always be useful).
Afghan did have some valid points. I'm not a huge fan of Tiger, but then again, I was not involved in that selection and don't know the situation well enough to definatively comment - so never have. I was involved in the first buy of NH-90, and wrote the committee meeting comments for a senior defence member for the second/follow-on buy. I stand by and can prove my points - I'm still here, as is Ermagov. I have nothing to hide from my involvement.
Oh - and Army were intimately involved in the selection process for both Tiger and NH90 (including the numbers for NH-90. The first time is was mentioned in the Defence Capability Committee - the major committee headed by VCDF that considered these issues- the numbers were drawn from a paper/advice written by the then head of AAAvn...........)
I'm sorry I got personal. But if a good friend of yours was called incompetent by someone, how would you react?
Afghan - I'm sorry for the "beneath contempt" comment. It was uncalled for. Please accept my unreserved apologies.
Afghan did have some valid points. I'm not a huge fan of Tiger, but then again, I was not involved in that selection and don't know the situation well enough to definatively comment - so never have. I was involved in the first buy of NH-90, and wrote the committee meeting comments for a senior defence member for the second/follow-on buy. I stand by and can prove my points - I'm still here, as is Ermagov. I have nothing to hide from my involvement.
Oh - and Army were intimately involved in the selection process for both Tiger and NH90 (including the numbers for NH-90. The first time is was mentioned in the Defence Capability Committee - the major committee headed by VCDF that considered these issues- the numbers were drawn from a paper/advice written by the then head of AAAvn...........)
I'm sorry I got personal. But if a good friend of yours was called incompetent by someone, how would you react?
Afghan - I'm sorry for the "beneath contempt" comment. It was uncalled for. Please accept my unreserved apologies.
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Guys, the bottom line is that 6 CH47 and a couple of dozen ARH and MRH are not enough to support the groundpounders. If we think that the ADF can defend our nation against a serious aggressor, we are kidding ourselves. We couldn't even get a Sapper Regt and a couple of CH47 to help repair roads and deliver aid to entrapped flood victims in N.QLD.
IMHO, we should just focus on humanitarian, SAR and SO tasks.
HPT
IMHO, we should just focus on humanitarian, SAR and SO tasks.
HPT
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Originally Posted by scran
... there will NEVER be enough Airlift ...
Originally Posted by Wiley
What most of the rest of us would like to be assured of is whether AAVN will be able to provide a credible ongoing helicopter presence in the field and in sufficient numbers should push ever come to shove on a large scale (or even a small scale!) one day in the foreseeable future.
The RW system isn't an end in and of itself; it's a means to an end.
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Afghan - see my PM
You might not believe it - but my goal was EXACTLY the same as yours, and that is EXACTLY the same goal that anyone who works in Capability Development....................................
You might not believe it - but my goal was EXACTLY the same as yours, and that is EXACTLY the same goal that anyone who works in Capability Development....................................