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RAAF Flight Screening Programme

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RAAF Flight Screening Programme

Old 14th May 2012, 10:05
  #2081 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: NSW
Age: 61
Posts: 150
Good replies guys. Glad to hear you have no confidence or belief in Gen Y/Gen Z. Personally, if I were one of those I would be mortified that people like you good folk think so little of me.

Not sure what points you are trying to make that conflict with my original foray. There is clearly an element of self justification and inter-type rivalry going on, but what you say doesn't make it right. Indeed, you should all be very worried. Please don't try to stick up for it because it only makes the situation worse. People need to face up to why we have a defence force, and if it's all about hauling trash, easy lifestyle, 5 star food/accom, then we are all in a very dangerous place.

Last edited by DBTW; 14th May 2012 at 10:13.
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Old 14th May 2012, 10:09
  #2082 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Victoria
Age: 59
Posts: 984
DBTW,
I agree with what you're saying. However as the last two posters have stated, we now have to pitch to a different market.
Just to assume that every graduated pilot wants to go FJ just isnt the case any more. ACG has to sell itself, and this is where they fall down.
Telling the students at BFTS/2FTS that they can look forward to 12 hour days six days/week, 200 hours/year, be burnt out by the time you reach your mid-30s, and then having to work incredibly hard for the priviledge doesn't cut it with them.
Additionally, Australian governments just don't have the balls to use our FJ units to anywhere near their capacity. This means that the young 'uns look elsewhere for operational experience, hence the increased interest in Hercs, P3s and C17s.
ACG need to bite the bullet and send some family models to Tamworth and Pearce regularly and take some of the kiddies for a ride.
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Old 14th May 2012, 10:23
  #2083 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: NSW
Age: 61
Posts: 150
CSD, you know I respect your view and agree with your way forward. ACG may well have a sales pitch to make, but at the flight screening level it doesn't alter the fact that the down pitch being played by Joker89, Upgraded and finestkind is simply wrong. If they really feel the way they advocate then they have no place in any defence force, let alone a modern one faced with all the identified challenges.

A big NB: I am proud of my fighter hours and can honestly say they were quite a variety of experience. If a 6 hour brief to get a few good hours of flight time is what it takes, that will always be better than a logbook full of the same old boring hour watching the auto-pilot take me to another different international airport. If you want that life, join an airline!
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Old 14th May 2012, 10:24
  #2084 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: The wrong time zone...
Posts: 687
DBTW - mate, I have to agree with the other posters - you're out of touch.
ACG need to wake up to themselves - why did NONE of the QFIs at 2FTS take up the offer of a slot at 79SQN for Fast Jet conversion? I'm not saying it's a good thing, it's just the reality of the situation. I strongly believe that the RAAF has the BEST fighter pilots in the world. I REALLY believe that. I have nothing but admiration for their skills and work ethic. But something it wrong. Why do none of THEM want to go back? (From 2FTS, 79/76SQN?) They work too hard - for, arguably, no reason. Not "too hard" in your books - which is again, something I admire from someone like you - but "too hard" for this generation, where often wives and partners have their own careers and ambitions, that take up LOTS of time and effort.
Is this a problem? I don't think so - the time spent on 1v1, 2v1s, is great fun and makes for some cool HUD tapes, but it is a wasted maintenance of proficiency for a skill unlikely to be needed.
I have quite a few mates in ACG who feel the same way - these guys are UTMOST professionals who have an amazing passion for their jobs - but they have other respectable interests too - and we're burning them out.
Unfortunately it only takes the odd knob to ruin the image of what could be a terrific posting opportunity - and unfortunately a number of them have done a lot of damage at the schools (BFTS and 2FTS).
Whilst slightly off the topic (from RAAF Flight Screening) it is relevant...

Last edited by josephfeatherweight; 14th May 2012 at 10:27.
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Old 14th May 2012, 10:34
  #2085 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 193
If ACG want people to want to do it the government should send a sqn to the middle east. We are fighting a war but our jets are deploying to Vegas, Guam and butterworth. If there was any more than a slim chance of defending more than the training area You would get more interest.
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Old 14th May 2012, 11:51
  #2086 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Towards the Front
Posts: 25
DBTW,

Like it or not these generations and their differing values comprise the bulk of the bograt workforce of today and the leadership positions of tomorrow. Consequently these generations need to be understood. The truth of the matter is that the training system is set up to produce fighter pilots. Every trainee pilot that finishes 2FTS at a standard good enough to matriculate to 79sqn (and potentially go on to Hornets) and KNOCKS IT BACK to fly a Herc/P-3/C17 is a massive waste of time and money. This is happening time and time again and the blame for this rests solely with ACG . I know some people that were scrubbed from 76 and when offered a chance to return because they were short on numbers they politely declined - citing the amount of spare time on their hands to surf, drink etc as a contributing factor. They admitted that the 737/C-130 wasn't as much fun but the LIFESTYLE was too good to pass up.

This is all about marketing. ACG need to sell it better to the upcoming generations. And that doesn't mean handing out aviators and bomber jackets at university open days.

Here's a real world example for you to ponder. Aware of the current situation the 2FTS brass decided that the reason Bloggs doesn't want to fly fighters is because his instructor was a Herc/P-3/BBJ guy that told him how good life is flying multi's and if his instructor was a jet guy then all would be good. WRONG. The fact that jets is too hard is all too public. And Bloggs only needs to talk to the junior guys at the jet SQN's to get the low down which he has already done. His mind is already made up. No amount of moto briefs/pax rides/trips to muchea to watch BDU's being dropped will change this.

The solution means modifying the workrate/tempo at the squadrons to facilitate a semi-normal existence where one can manage a career and a family and their own external interests as well as providing the opportunity to utilise these finely tuned skill-sets in an operational environment. If they fail to do this there will be a significant number of JSF's sitting on the flightline as spare frames from 2018. Good if one crumps though.
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Old 14th May 2012, 12:51
  #2087 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: The crew room
Posts: 50
I started 2FTS wanting to be a knuck, and I can clearly remember belittling a coursemate who wanted hercs at the start. As course went on there was a constant pressure from the QFIs pushing us all towards knucks. I found this confusing. If it is so good, why do they need to push us to it? The more I looked at it, it got less appealing. In the end I approached a senior 79 SQN QFI, and asked him why I should want to go to knucks. His only response was that if I didn't just desperately want to zoom into the sky in hornet, then I didn't belong. I accepted his advice and continued to work my ass off to earn my wings before moving on to a very rewarding ALG career.

I think most new boggies are like me. They make smart informed decisions. If the rush of zooming around in a hornet is all you have to offer, I think you need to do MUCH better. That would be fun, sure, but once you've ticked that box, what does it offer you in the medium and long term?

For those who think it is good to wish for any form of military transport or support job over a fast jet post, let me just say that if you manage to slip through the selection process don't try to talk up the fact that you are aiming low. The only reason for aiming low is to avoid disappointment, and if that is how you think I hope the military doesn't want you. To my mind, the military needs go getters, not settlers.
This comment displays your total lack of understanding. Aiming for ALG is not aiming low. I worked my ass off to get my wings, and have continued to work hard to be an effective and professional operator providing capability on a range of operations across the globe. I have now moved on to civil opportunities that I am well prepared for given my multi-engine multi-crew background. Throughout my career I have not heard of one bit of information that would have me question that original decision. I would also encourage you desist from the comments about less work being a motivator. There are many things that inform the decision to preference away from knucks, the lower requirement to spend precious days off at work is just one, and often not THE motivator.

Perhaps if you thought of your non-ACG colleagues on a peer basis, instead of assuming they are 'lower', it might help you to start making the comparison the boggies make. You might even start to understand how the opportunity to fly a C17 is an unparalleled opportunity to fly a modern glass cockpit swept wing jet on operations around the globe. I cannot fathom how knucks provides a better opportunity than this.
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Old 14th May 2012, 21:36
  #2088 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: NSW
Age: 61
Posts: 150
Flight screening

Gentlemen (?), let's get some stuff straight here. This thread is where youngsters come to seek answers to questions about joining the ADF as pilots. Recently, there has been a significant trend towards uniformed personnel appearing to talk down the ADF's recruitment process.
In my first "on this topic" post I said:
You will find there is inter-type rivalry, inter-service rivalry, inter-personal rivalry.
and since then the responses all appear to come from uniforms trying to self justify. Not a problem, but remember who is reading. I am close enough to the system to know that nearly 100% of the youth approaching the screening process wish to fly fast jets. That is the same as it has ever been and no amount of talking down to the youth of today will change that.

I fully understand there are not enough fast jet slots available for all of the 140 odd students who commence BFTS each year, and the subsequent training process is such that most graduates do not achieve their initial goal. IE: they finish up flying something else.

You guys are all focusing on post selection, post training issues. Both of which are important for everyone in military service to face at some point. In bringing it up on a flight screening forum, all you are doing is demotivating at best, or as I have said already, trying to justify the path you either chose or were forced down.

Thanks for all the insights about Gen Y and the later Gen. To be frank, you are all wrong. I believe the youth of today are just as capable and motivated as any youth have ever been. Quit with the pandering nonsense and make way because they are coming through, and they will step up when needed.

Those of the younger generations reading this, please let me say that I, quite uniquely on this thread it seems, believe in you and your ability to step up to the plate should your nation need you in military service. NB: it is a generational thing that the people here are appearing to be condescending towards you. Continue boldly and reach for the stars. Don't let them talk you down.

FHLL, it is aiming low if you shoot for something you perceive to be easier when you originally aimed for a higher goal. That's life, Mate. You seem to be surviving with it in your "sponsored by the people of Australia" commercial pursuits. I suppose you think everyone in the RAAF should join an airline like what you did?

Thanks to the bulk of you who have re-affirmed that the ADF still attempts to recruit warriors before others. That is a good thing. How the ADF manage the process after training seems to be what you all want to talk about. There is nothing new here. The process I went through was nearly identical, and judging by the stories my father told me, it was the same in his day as well. Might I politely suggest you take that to another thread so that this one can go on giving our youth the answers they need to get through flight screening? They really are motivated and they will be fine. Just give them a chance to prove it.

Last edited by DBTW; 14th May 2012 at 21:37.
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Old 14th May 2012, 23:35
  #2089 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: The crew room
Posts: 50
DBTW,

I agree the thread has been drifting from the pre-selection phase to posting issues.

We have been discussing the aspirations and career paths that these applicants will take, in response to queries about what the realities are of careers once you've got your wings. The reason this is happening is because they are smart enough to try to research the whole deal of joining the RAAF. They are rightfully concerned about what happens if they don't get what they are aiming for. We are simply suggesting that by the time streaming comes, there is a very good chance they will be actively seeking ALG. Therefore, don't get stressed about this outcome at the recruitment stage, because there are many who would suggest this is a far better outcome than going to ACG. If the worst case is that you become tagged a career King Air pilot (this appears to be happening to VERY few), you will have had some of the best flying training available anywhere in the world, and you will have a heap of MC/ME experience that will place you very well if yo choose to transition out once you have done your service. Plus you will still have enjoyed the camaraderie of being on a military SQN.

Joining with a goal to go to ALG is a great choice to make. The only issue is that the RAAF revolves around ACG, and therefore candidates are selected on their intention and aptitude to be a knuck. Therefore if a current applicant is smart (and I very much think they are), they will tell everyone exactly what they want to hear until they get to streaming, when they can finally be clear about what they want. I am not advocating dishonesty - simply observing a path that many (not me) have trodden.

Speaking to potential applicants here: as I pointed out before, if ACG was so good, this discussion would be moot. The truth is that if roaring around in a Jet competing with your peers is what makes you tick, then by all means join and push for jets. If you make it then good luck to you, I hope it's everything you dreamed of. For everybody else, DBTW has made a number of posts without making one coherent argument as to why the jet world is so good. You'll get plenty of people from ALG happy to tell you the pros and cons of their world. Have a look at DBTW's attitude. He doesn't know me, what service I provided or what commendations I received. My ALG bosses were grateful to me for my RAAF service and understood my decision to separate based upon the needs of my family. DBTW is prepared to assert that I have used the people of Australia for commercial reasons based on nothing. Because my choices are different to his, he's prepared to make personal attacks, and repeatedly assert that the only basis of my decision can be that I was aiming low and taking an easy route. To me this is typical of the self-absorbed arrogance of ACG. I think everyone in the RAAF should continue to make smart informed choices. Continue boldly and don't let people like DBTW put you off making the decisions that are right for you.

DBTW, I think that you are the only one who thinks that the current applicants aren't smart. They will get to streaming and make informed choices based around facts and information. The question remains: can you offer a comprehensive argument as to why a grad today would want to be a knuck, based upon all the consequences of that decision on themselves, their family, career and professional development?
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Old 15th May 2012, 00:28
  #2090 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 193
Good post FHLL

I think what DB is trying to say is we should want to be a knuck because of the perceived status and honor that comes with the position.

Unfortunately this doesn't exist. A person isn't defined by what aircraft they fly. It's just life choices. I wouldn't take my family to tindal just so I can fly a fast jet or anything for that matter. He is right in that this prob isn't the place for such arguments.

Last edited by Joker89; 15th May 2012 at 01:13.
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Old 15th May 2012, 00:49
  #2091 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 48
Agreed this should probably go in the "RAAF Pilots leaving" forum, which has been inactive for a while.

Maybe some of the senior officers (ie star ranked fighter pilots) who peruse this forum will also wade in.
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Old 15th May 2012, 02:36
  #2092 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: The wrong time zone...
Posts: 687
Agreed this should probably go in the "RAAF Pilots leaving" forum, which has been inactive for a while.

Maybe some of the senior officers (ie star ranked fighter pilots) who peruse this forum will also wade in.
Discussion continued there...
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Old 15th May 2012, 08:23
  #2093 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: SAUDI
Posts: 285
DBTW

I guess most of its been said for me but. There is no self justification or any other rubbish. What is being offered to you is the reason ACG is struggling to qual its 12 odd knucks a year. We do not want warriors anymore cause they are the people who will get pissed in the back bar and poke you in the chest, as their CO, and tell you how they would run the squadron. They are the people that dance on table tops and take life on in an aggressive fashion, full throttle in after burner , as we all were in my time (as such I was told by my PT 3 that I was not suitable candidate for FJís, a long time ago, who happened to be a bloody Admino. Another reason itís all gone to pot). And guess what ? that is not the type that is wanted anymore. What is wanted is a gentleman officer who know their place and did not step out of line. Please do not continue to embarrass yourself by displaying your sheltered fast jet life. Itís not lack of confidence or belief in gen Z its hard facts. A generation that has been pampered/cotton wooled through school were no-one fails, a generation that wants it now, without the effort. Great, you continue with your belief in the new Genís and their capabilities and I am more than happy to be proven wrong but back it up with facts. Pilots course is still hard work but itís not like it was. Do that again blogs and your scrubbed. We no longer have that negative reinforcement (that worked pretty well). BFTS, 2FTS is a lot kinder when telling someone they are a cripple. CFS is no longer 3FTS. Perhaps thatís your answer the training system has changed to move with the times, has the fast jet world? Very few if any in my time would have knocked back a FJ slot so in that aspect donít belittle the ones that didnít get it. Secondly if anyone can be turned off FJ by a bit of talk then they are the wrong stuff, which just lends credibility to what I/we are saying about the new gen. As such it maybe thread drift but its relevant.
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Old 16th May 2012, 06:57
  #2094 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Age: 31
Posts: 12
Alright, well aside from negative comments directed at Gen Z (...), I don't suppose anyone happens to know how I might be able to contact AvMed at RAAF Edinburgh? I tried the Defence switchboard several times, but the number I've been connected through to is ringing out over and over. I figure asking DFR medical staff is my next option, but I don't want to come across as undermining their system by contacting AvMed directly myself... Appreciate any help!

Cheers
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Old 16th May 2012, 07:41
  #2095 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Oz
Posts: 23
Is it just to hurry them up? With my medical appeal running over the allotted time, I just kept pestering my local DFR Medical Section once a week until I got a favourable response. I don't have contact details for AvMed though.
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Old 16th May 2012, 07:48
  #2096 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Age: 31
Posts: 12
Not so much to hurry them along as to double check they have received and are processing my file; I've heard some horror stories of such things getting lost between DFR and AvMed. Might try DFR Medical here in Brisbane again. Appreciate your reply, thanks.
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Old 16th May 2012, 10:02
  #2097 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Oz
Posts: 23
When I contacted the Medical Section in my local DFRC they offered to contact Canberra themselves to make sure that everything was received and whatnot. I'd definitely recommend keeping in contact with your one and perhaps ask them if they could do the same.
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Old 16th May 2012, 22:25
  #2098 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 9
Army Pilot Sitting Height Update:
I got a call from the DFR doc yesterday and they have set in stone the Army pilot sitting height - 95cm.
Bad news for me as I'm 96.5cm, she advised it's not something you can appeal now because it's policy, formal waivers and cockpit tests are now a thing of the past.
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Old 17th May 2012, 02:12
  #2099 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Melbourne
Age: 30
Posts: 7
Well Its been around 2 weeks since my assessment session and I got my call today to attend Tamworth

I'll be on the 9-23 June Course, anyone else going to be on that, send me a pm.

Any information or insight on the course would also be much appreciated

cheers
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Old 17th May 2012, 15:06
  #2100 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Melbourne
Age: 30
Posts: 7
Edit: double posted, sorry

Last edited by Aydo; 18th May 2012 at 17:04.
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