Gaining An R.A.F Pilots Brevet In WW II
In Captain Gordon Vette's outstanding book Impact Erebus there are several pages (191 to 196) devoted to describing the day circling approach to RWY 13 at Kai Tak . The author's reason for including this passage was to counter any suggestion that the captain of the ill- fated Air New Zealand DC10 that crashed into Mount Erebus, Jim Collins, did not fly the aircraft he commanded with the greatest proficiency. Captain Collins had flown the day circling approach to RWY 13 at Kai Tak many times.
Page 191 - "The harbour circling approach to RWY 13 provides a good example of a pilot and his crew operating at peak proficiency, exploiting to the utmost their training, the aircraft's instruments and, most significantly, their response to visual stimuli."
ditto . .. . "Should this type of manoeuvring be attempted over most cities of the world, the crew would find themselves in prison. At Hong Kong, it was the only way that the airport could be used, in certain weather conditions."
This thread is not the place to open yet another discussion of the circumstances surrounding the crash of TE901 in November 1979, save
to say that for everyone interested in the subject who has not listened to the one hour seventeen minute program where an interview, towards the end, with Captain Vette and Justice Peter Mahon, who headed the commission of enquiry into the accident, it should be essential viewing. More than that, and more broadly, it is relevant for all who maintain an active and informed interest in air safety investigation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyWvOI_MD-Q
Captain Vette lives today in retirement in New Zealand. Following a major stroke he is severely handicapped, having lost his speech, among other faculties. He has found however that painting is aiding a partial recovery.
Page 191 - "The harbour circling approach to RWY 13 provides a good example of a pilot and his crew operating at peak proficiency, exploiting to the utmost their training, the aircraft's instruments and, most significantly, their response to visual stimuli."
ditto . .. . "Should this type of manoeuvring be attempted over most cities of the world, the crew would find themselves in prison. At Hong Kong, it was the only way that the airport could be used, in certain weather conditions."
This thread is not the place to open yet another discussion of the circumstances surrounding the crash of TE901 in November 1979, save
to say that for everyone interested in the subject who has not listened to the one hour seventeen minute program where an interview, towards the end, with Captain Vette and Justice Peter Mahon, who headed the commission of enquiry into the accident, it should be essential viewing. More than that, and more broadly, it is relevant for all who maintain an active and informed interest in air safety investigation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyWvOI_MD-Q
Captain Vette lives today in retirement in New Zealand. Following a major stroke he is severely handicapped, having lost his speech, among other faculties. He has found however that painting is aiding a partial recovery.
Last edited by Fantome; 10th Feb 2015 at 22:03.
FROM NIGHT FLAK TO HIJACK
FROM NIGHT FLAK TO HIJACK lobbed in the letterbox this morning. Needless to say, all pressing, extraneous jobs clambering for attention, were ignored for many hours. It would not be right, or fair, to rave too much, let alone refer to the highly quotable parts. The greatest impression of all is undoubtably that Reg Levy was blessed with a charmed life. The close shaves he survived, more often than not unscathed, give much pause for wonderment. It was the luck of the draw, again and again.
His affection for nearly every aeroplane he flew is palpable. Take the Mosquito , for instance. His conversion onto the Mossie consisted of reading the pilot's notes, then blasting off alone for a few circuits. The subsequent extensive damage that he and his nav sustained to their aircraft on low level bombing raids, and their miraculous returns home, rank close to the unbelievable.
On page 40 he mentions two Australians who served with great distinction,
Wallace Kyle and Hughie Edwards. Both were later knighted. Both served periods of office as Governors of Western Australia.
Contrary to what Reg wrote, Hughie Edwards was never 'Governor-General of Tasmania'. No one ever was, for that office has never existed.
Postscript re the Mossie. Reg says the Mosquito was developed from the DH Comet racer. That is probably debatable.
WGCDR H. Edwards VC
Air Chief Marshal Sir Wallace Kyle -
passing out parade, Halton, 1965
His affection for nearly every aeroplane he flew is palpable. Take the Mosquito , for instance. His conversion onto the Mossie consisted of reading the pilot's notes, then blasting off alone for a few circuits. The subsequent extensive damage that he and his nav sustained to their aircraft on low level bombing raids, and their miraculous returns home, rank close to the unbelievable.
On page 40 he mentions two Australians who served with great distinction,
Wallace Kyle and Hughie Edwards. Both were later knighted. Both served periods of office as Governors of Western Australia.
Contrary to what Reg wrote, Hughie Edwards was never 'Governor-General of Tasmania'. No one ever was, for that office has never existed.
Postscript re the Mossie. Reg says the Mosquito was developed from the DH Comet racer. That is probably debatable.
WGCDR H. Edwards VC
Air Chief Marshal Sir Wallace Kyle -
passing out parade, Halton, 1965
Last edited by Fantome; 11th Feb 2015 at 04:15.
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I have been lurking on this site for several years; first discovered it at about page 65, and been reading it avidly ever since. While the original thread was on pilot training in WW2, it has seems to have evolved to most aspects of aviation during and after that period. I am therefore asking indulgence is posing some question related to my Father,s wartime service. It has only been since his passing just over a year ago that I have come into possession of his Flying logbook outlining training as Bombaimer in the RCAF and RAF. I never knew this document ever existed.
He joined the RCAF in 1942, and remained there until cessation of hostilities, demobbing as Pilot Officer. I guess he missed the service, and re-upped about 1957, starting out as LAC all over again, in electronics trade.
I am hoping I am not stepping out of line here recounting his experiences, and asking questions to others who also participated in those dark but exciting days.
Fiest was to #8 Bombing and Gunnery, Lethbridge Alt, in December 1942, flying in Battles and Bollingbrooks, flown by Service pilots. While at #8, bombing exercises B-1 to B-5 were completed on Ansons, again flown by Service Pilots. Not sure what these exercises entailed.
In February 1943 he was posted to #2 Observers School, Edmonton, for bombing training, on Ansons. It is interesting to note all the Pilots there seem to have been flown by civilian pilots.
From there it was overseas, travelling on the Louis Pasteur, to #3 AFU Bobbington. There it was exercises CE, B5, MR, B2, on Ansons. what Training would have been different from what was done in Canada.
From there, #81 OTU at Whitchurch, initially on AIt was there that it appears they Ansons, then Whitleys. It was there that it appears they crewed up. In November 1942 they were posted to #1662 Conversion Unit at Blyton, initially on Halifax them converted to Lancasters there. In December 1943 they were posted to 166 Squadron Kirmington, arriving at the height of the Battle of Berlin. They completed some 19 ops before the odds caught up and their Lanc was lost on the night of March 30, 31 1944, target Nueremberg.
I apologize for the lengthy post and hope that others can shed light on what these exercises would have entailed, thank you
Jeff
He joined the RCAF in 1942, and remained there until cessation of hostilities, demobbing as Pilot Officer. I guess he missed the service, and re-upped about 1957, starting out as LAC all over again, in electronics trade.
I am hoping I am not stepping out of line here recounting his experiences, and asking questions to others who also participated in those dark but exciting days.
Fiest was to #8 Bombing and Gunnery, Lethbridge Alt, in December 1942, flying in Battles and Bollingbrooks, flown by Service pilots. While at #8, bombing exercises B-1 to B-5 were completed on Ansons, again flown by Service Pilots. Not sure what these exercises entailed.
In February 1943 he was posted to #2 Observers School, Edmonton, for bombing training, on Ansons. It is interesting to note all the Pilots there seem to have been flown by civilian pilots.
From there it was overseas, travelling on the Louis Pasteur, to #3 AFU Bobbington. There it was exercises CE, B5, MR, B2, on Ansons. what Training would have been different from what was done in Canada.
From there, #81 OTU at Whitchurch, initially on AIt was there that it appears they Ansons, then Whitleys. It was there that it appears they crewed up. In November 1942 they were posted to #1662 Conversion Unit at Blyton, initially on Halifax them converted to Lancasters there. In December 1943 they were posted to 166 Squadron Kirmington, arriving at the height of the Battle of Berlin. They completed some 19 ops before the odds caught up and their Lanc was lost on the night of March 30, 31 1944, target Nueremberg.
I apologize for the lengthy post and hope that others can shed light on what these exercises would have entailed, thank you
Jeff
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Jeff
I am more than happy for the thread to drift back to WWII training.
In answer to one of your questions, the AFU was to enable aircrew who had learned their trade overseas to experience UK / Europe flying conditions, such as barrage balloons, black outs, fog, varying terrains etc.
I have had a very quick look at some other Air Bomber log books to see if there is any information on the various exercises and, as a possible start point:
B2 - B4 may relate to daytime bombing (with the numbers possibly relating to a specific target)
B5 may relate to nighttime bombing
CE may relate to "Combined Exercise" (ie long distance navigation and bombing [Bullseye])
MR may relate to Map Reading
I will have another look later to see if I can find more detailed information.
If you need any information on training or the loss of the aircraft, please let me know and I will see what I can dig out for you.
Regards
Pete
I am more than happy for the thread to drift back to WWII training.
In answer to one of your questions, the AFU was to enable aircrew who had learned their trade overseas to experience UK / Europe flying conditions, such as barrage balloons, black outs, fog, varying terrains etc.
I have had a very quick look at some other Air Bomber log books to see if there is any information on the various exercises and, as a possible start point:
B2 - B4 may relate to daytime bombing (with the numbers possibly relating to a specific target)
B5 may relate to nighttime bombing
CE may relate to "Combined Exercise" (ie long distance navigation and bombing [Bullseye])
MR may relate to Map Reading
I will have another look later to see if I can find more detailed information.
If you need any information on training or the loss of the aircraft, please let me know and I will see what I can dig out for you.
Regards
Pete
Last edited by Petet; 11th Feb 2015 at 09:30.
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jeffb,
First, welcome aboard our Prince of Threads ! (you must not apologise for your "lengthy Post"; every word may trigger off others' reminiscences; it is exactly what this Forum is all about).
In amplification of Petet's reply, I must stress the importance of his words "may" in the interpretation of mere letters and figures in the "Duty" column of your Father's Logbook.
Although all my American training entries are descriptive, the subsequent RAF (AFU plus OTU) ones carry something like "Ex 18A", which mean nothing to me now, as I have no Schedule of the Exercises. I believe this was common in all our flying (inc Nav and Bomb Aimer, etc) schools of the period. Yet someone may yet remember and be able to help you out.
(From Wiki and "World War II Today"): "A total of 95 aircraft were lost" (on the Nuremberg raid) – "at 11.9% the highest rate for Bomber Command for the whole war".
Cheers, Danny.
First, welcome aboard our Prince of Threads ! (you must not apologise for your "lengthy Post"; every word may trigger off others' reminiscences; it is exactly what this Forum is all about).
In amplification of Petet's reply, I must stress the importance of his words "may" in the interpretation of mere letters and figures in the "Duty" column of your Father's Logbook.
Although all my American training entries are descriptive, the subsequent RAF (AFU plus OTU) ones carry something like "Ex 18A", which mean nothing to me now, as I have no Schedule of the Exercises. I believe this was common in all our flying (inc Nav and Bomb Aimer, etc) schools of the period. Yet someone may yet remember and be able to help you out.
(From Wiki and "World War II Today"): "A total of 95 aircraft were lost" (on the Nuremberg raid) – "at 11.9% the highest rate for Bomber Command for the whole war".
Cheers, Danny.
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Pete (your #6745),
Thanks for the offer, but I remember the List of Exercises (p118 #2341) Fred (RIP) Posted on this Thread. I would think that these numbers might have been standard for EFTS and SFTS (or Primary and Advanced Schools), but when it came to OTUs, there would need to be different exercises on each of the types involved, and the numbering system would have be unique to cater for each. The Meteor AFS at Driffield ('50) and Weston Zoyland ('54) used the same system.
Curiously, when I reached my operational VVs, we logged brief details of where we had been and what done for each training or operational sortie. But then again, post-war on 20 Sqdn, we reverted to "T 1", "R 6", "Y 6", "V 1.5", etc., as each of these would refer to one of our several routine tasks. Of these, I only remember that the figure represented the height. The only letter I can be confident about was "Y": this referred to the Spitfire runs at the Tonfanau AA range which produced the "ghost" targets for the gunners.
These entries were interspersed with non-standard items like "Formation", "Airtest" or "Army Co-op, Ty Croes" (and, on one occasion which will live long in my memory: "St Athan & Ret" [Brake Drums !] ).
Cheers, Danny,
Thanks for the offer, but I remember the List of Exercises (p118 #2341) Fred (RIP) Posted on this Thread. I would think that these numbers might have been standard for EFTS and SFTS (or Primary and Advanced Schools), but when it came to OTUs, there would need to be different exercises on each of the types involved, and the numbering system would have be unique to cater for each. The Meteor AFS at Driffield ('50) and Weston Zoyland ('54) used the same system.
Curiously, when I reached my operational VVs, we logged brief details of where we had been and what done for each training or operational sortie. But then again, post-war on 20 Sqdn, we reverted to "T 1", "R 6", "Y 6", "V 1.5", etc., as each of these would refer to one of our several routine tasks. Of these, I only remember that the figure represented the height. The only letter I can be confident about was "Y": this referred to the Spitfire runs at the Tonfanau AA range which produced the "ghost" targets for the gunners.
These entries were interspersed with non-standard items like "Formation", "Airtest" or "Army Co-op, Ty Croes" (and, on one occasion which will live long in my memory: "St Athan & Ret" [Brake Drums !] ).
Cheers, Danny,
Last edited by Danny42C; 17th Feb 2015 at 18:33. Reason: Spacing
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Petet, and Danny, thank you very much for your words of encouragement. I have found some details of the raid and the combat Dad was involved in, but some if it is conflicting, so any more information would be greatly appreciated. I am not sure if it would be appropriate to post on this board or via PM; either would be fine by me.
I believe it was at #81 OTU that they crewed up. I am not sure when the crews sorted themselves out into their respective crews. I understand that the RAF left everyone to decide who they would fly with rather than the more expected method of some nameless faceless entity assigning crews. Going through the logbook, I see that Dad flew almost exclusively with his eventual Skipper. Of the 24 flights in Whitleys, 21 were with his Skipper, and 1 each by other pilots. I remember Dad saying they used to watch the pilots doing circuits and taking notes to see who flew smoothly, or as he put it, flew ropey. However, when they did do their crewing up ( would it have been at the beginning or end of the course ) it was the Skipper who sought out Dad specifically to join him, then Dad introduced him to a fellow RCAF navigator; the Skipper sized him up then invited him to become a member of the crew. I am not sure how the Wireless Op was added.
Jeff
I believe it was at #81 OTU that they crewed up. I am not sure when the crews sorted themselves out into their respective crews. I understand that the RAF left everyone to decide who they would fly with rather than the more expected method of some nameless faceless entity assigning crews. Going through the logbook, I see that Dad flew almost exclusively with his eventual Skipper. Of the 24 flights in Whitleys, 21 were with his Skipper, and 1 each by other pilots. I remember Dad saying they used to watch the pilots doing circuits and taking notes to see who flew smoothly, or as he put it, flew ropey. However, when they did do their crewing up ( would it have been at the beginning or end of the course ) it was the Skipper who sought out Dad specifically to join him, then Dad introduced him to a fellow RCAF navigator; the Skipper sized him up then invited him to become a member of the crew. I am not sure how the Wireless Op was added.
Jeff
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Jeff
As a rule of thumb (but not always) the pilot, navigator, air bomber, wireless operator and one air gunner crewed up and trained as a five-man crew on medium bombers at OTU.
Once they had completed this training they moved onto a conversion unit where they were joined by a second air gunner and the flight engineer to train as a seven-man crew on heavy bombers.
I will have a look to see what documents I have relating to the loss.
Regards
Pete
As a rule of thumb (but not always) the pilot, navigator, air bomber, wireless operator and one air gunner crewed up and trained as a five-man crew on medium bombers at OTU.
Once they had completed this training they moved onto a conversion unit where they were joined by a second air gunner and the flight engineer to train as a seven-man crew on heavy bombers.
I will have a look to see what documents I have relating to the loss.
Regards
Pete
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Crewing-up.
Jeff and Pete,
This extract from my #2592 p.130 may be of interest. It details what I was told was the crewing-up procedure in Bomber Command OTUs during the war (harrym and Ormeside may wish to comment), and my own experience in other circumstances:
"The next stage was to get myself a crewman. Actually, it wasn't quite like that. I was told that at home, the drill was (on bomber crews) that the new nav was supposed to wait, like a wallflower at a dance, until a twin-wing prince came over and popped the question. If the deal was done, the pair then went round selecting the rest of their crew".
"But that presupposed similar levels of experience all round. In our case, the ex-Blenheim navs and wop/ags were all battle-hardened veterans from shipping strikes over the Channel and the like, and the squadron had taken a fair hammering. They were not going to be picked over by this intake of sprogs fresh out of training !"
"So it was that Sgt Keith Stewart-Mobsby (Wop/Ag - and hereinafter "Stew") came over and said "You're my Pilot - any objection ?" It seemed that the deciding factor had been that he wanted a British pilot this time - being fed up with the Wild Colonial Boys he'd had before. As I was the only new one in town, it had been Hobson's choice for him. It worked out fine, and we stayed together, off and on, till the end".
Danny.
This extract from my #2592 p.130 may be of interest. It details what I was told was the crewing-up procedure in Bomber Command OTUs during the war (harrym and Ormeside may wish to comment), and my own experience in other circumstances:
"The next stage was to get myself a crewman. Actually, it wasn't quite like that. I was told that at home, the drill was (on bomber crews) that the new nav was supposed to wait, like a wallflower at a dance, until a twin-wing prince came over and popped the question. If the deal was done, the pair then went round selecting the rest of their crew".
"But that presupposed similar levels of experience all round. In our case, the ex-Blenheim navs and wop/ags were all battle-hardened veterans from shipping strikes over the Channel and the like, and the squadron had taken a fair hammering. They were not going to be picked over by this intake of sprogs fresh out of training !"
"So it was that Sgt Keith Stewart-Mobsby (Wop/Ag - and hereinafter "Stew") came over and said "You're my Pilot - any objection ?" It seemed that the deciding factor had been that he wanted a British pilot this time - being fed up with the Wild Colonial Boys he'd had before. As I was the only new one in town, it had been Hobson's choice for him. It worked out fine, and we stayed together, off and on, till the end".
Danny.
Yet another reminder of just what a book is in the making from a collation
of all the mouth-watering morsels served up to us by our esteemed ,
magnanimous, magnificent man at his keyboard and screen
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Crew Formation
It's a bit off-thread but can anyone say how long the OCU 'beauty contest' continued to be the way crews were formed? Having managed to avoid the V-Force, two courses through Bassingbourn were my only experience of it, and both were a long time ago. First time, we did the course as a two-man crew and on the squadron were just given a second navigator who had been left 'spare' by postings out. I don't recall any of us new boys having trouble with this, and I can't remember now how the two navs decided who should be plotter and who observer. I think usually the second nav just wanted to keep doing what he'd done before. Second time it was just a two-man crew anyway.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
The V-force continued the beauty show meeting for the first time, for the newbies, at Mountbatten. Usually two crews worth.
The only variation was the Cyprus crew who were individually assigned by the poster and thus met on a blind date.
In contrast Maritime crews, whilst constituted, had people rotating to maintain a basic experience level.
The only variation was the Cyprus crew who were individually assigned by the poster and thus met on a blind date.
In contrast Maritime crews, whilst constituted, had people rotating to maintain a basic experience level.
The V-force continued the beauty show meeting for the first time, for the newbies, at Mountbatten. Usually two crews worth.
Thank God I went to helicopters when the Valiants folded.
The Times records the passing of Sir Gordon Linacre, sometime chairman of the Yorkshire Post newspaper and Opera North. He was 94.
Sir Gordon was the son of a steelworker and always wanted to be a journalist, joining the Sheffield Independent at the age of 17. He volunteered for the RAF after the outbreak of war and became a Hampden pilot with 83 Sqn, flying over Berlin, Essen, Kiel and Mannheim, and surviving three ditchings in the English Channel after being hit by flak. He finished the war as a squadron leader and was awarded the AFC.
Sir Gordon was the son of a steelworker and always wanted to be a journalist, joining the Sheffield Independent at the age of 17. He volunteered for the RAF after the outbreak of war and became a Hampden pilot with 83 Sqn, flying over Berlin, Essen, Kiel and Mannheim, and surviving three ditchings in the English Channel after being hit by flak. He finished the war as a squadron leader and was awarded the AFC.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
FED, copilots didn't count for exactly the reasons you say, ICC, flights with QFI, left-hand seat where captain wasn't right hand qualified etc.
You will recall that stats - navel, bombing, fighter affiliate, exercises, all had to be by constituted crew to count.
Even so, the compiling would pair up with one captain or the other at Mountbatten.
You will recall that stats - navel, bombing, fighter affiliate, exercises, all had to be by constituted crew to count.
Even so, the compiling would pair up with one captain or the other at Mountbatten.
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Although I am of roughly the same vintage as PN we crewed up at Finningley not Mountbatten since not all the retreads had to go to Mountbatten. In my case I failed the beauty contest and got sent to BCDU. Except I didn't as a crew on IX(B) had a co go long term sick so I was directed to fill his place.
ACW
ACW
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
ACW, as I said, co s were different.
In fact on my first tour our plotter was 'late' and joined us after the following course. We had a wg cdr, top bloke, destined for a staff job who did the course before going to Bomber.
Later our AEO voluntarily withdrew from flying and a year or so later our plotter was picked up to be ADC to AOC 224 Gp. In contrast, like some WW 2 crews we had one that came fully formed from Valiants with the Valiant Co now their captain - John B-Y.
PS
And from curiosity, our plotter is the NAv in the first photo one the following link http://www.cosfordapp.net/200/220.htm
In fact on my first tour our plotter was 'late' and joined us after the following course. We had a wg cdr, top bloke, destined for a staff job who did the course before going to Bomber.
Later our AEO voluntarily withdrew from flying and a year or so later our plotter was picked up to be ADC to AOC 224 Gp. In contrast, like some WW 2 crews we had one that came fully formed from Valiants with the Valiant Co now their captain - John B-Y.
PS
And from curiosity, our plotter is the NAv in the first photo one the following link http://www.cosfordapp.net/200/220.htm