Gaining An R.A.F Pilots Brevet In WW II
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: UK
Posts: 217
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ancient were you on 1066? I was at Coningsby when 1066 disbanded and they came around to see if anyone wanted a trip before the Hastings went out of service. I'm glad I took the opportunity as it's the first and last time I flew in a 4xpiston engine aircraft. The noise on take off was unforgettable.
Camlobe: I know a guy at Breighton with a Tripacer, I'm sure last time I saw him he said he was selling it.
Camlobe: I know a guy at Breighton with a Tripacer, I'm sure last time I saw him he said he was selling it.
Dave,
not 1066 alas but 36/24 Hastings and 47/48/30 on the Hercules. The air experience flights were a regular task then. No doubt it was all binned years ago.
not 1066 alas but 36/24 Hastings and 47/48/30 on the Hercules. The air experience flights were a regular task then. No doubt it was all binned years ago.
As others have noted, these many reminiscences of those first hectic and turbulent weeks of joining the Services though differing in detail have more in common than not. In my case long forgotten details have re-emerged thanks to the prompting received here.
I had forgotten that we did indeed have batmen allocated from the word go at Cranwell (or more specifically they came one to the hut to which we were allocated). None though ever carried my baggage, Beagle. Obviously things had changed somewhat, though I am glad that the CWO and his team of DI's turned out so well. They could in truth only change for the better.
I went back to a 25th anniversary Entry reunion and was astounded that the three years of our tenure was now shrunk to three months! The changes that you describe though must have been all the more striking, given that you experienced both the before and the after. I'm surprised that Crowing was still around as having experienced it ourselves, the word came down that there was to be no more of it, and certainly we as a Senior Entry only carried out the formal side (ie taking defaulters parades etc) of such duties. Someone obviously decided to give it one more try it seems.
Special thanks to our nautical brethren. Your mystic ways have always been a mystery wrapped in an enigma to we crabs. I particularly like the way that the steering thingy that you describe is variously ascribed to Lord Kitchener, or Admiral Kitchen, or a Kitchen who was not an Admiral. Excellent stuff! The more humdrum the device the more obscure its origins, rule #1 in the Boys Bumper Book of Spiffing Yarns. More please!
Danny, your steady yet precise progress seems to have been temporarily impaired by this sudden bottleneck of Ronald Shiner style Reminisces of a Recruit tales. Hopefully the traffic jam will ease as quickly as it formed in the way of such things, and we can enjoy yet more of your story. It is after all that of someone who did indeed Gain an RAF Pilots Brevet in WWII!
Edited to add that the above comment was merely a personal and selfish desire to hear more from Danny. It is in no way meant to be critical of those whose many interesting stories have filled out our understanding of the process of Joining HM Forces. If this thread isn't preserved for posterity as a unique historical document because of its many contributors and their varied tales then history will be the worse for it.
So an unreserved thanks to one and all for their 'dits' (as MPN11 has it) and keep them coming. I just felt that Danny might be waiting his turn somewhat, and I suspect that all here agree that it is always his turn and is rather for us to wait ours.
Clumsily put and I hope not out of order. Apologies to one and all if so.
I had forgotten that we did indeed have batmen allocated from the word go at Cranwell (or more specifically they came one to the hut to which we were allocated). None though ever carried my baggage, Beagle. Obviously things had changed somewhat, though I am glad that the CWO and his team of DI's turned out so well. They could in truth only change for the better.
I went back to a 25th anniversary Entry reunion and was astounded that the three years of our tenure was now shrunk to three months! The changes that you describe though must have been all the more striking, given that you experienced both the before and the after. I'm surprised that Crowing was still around as having experienced it ourselves, the word came down that there was to be no more of it, and certainly we as a Senior Entry only carried out the formal side (ie taking defaulters parades etc) of such duties. Someone obviously decided to give it one more try it seems.
Special thanks to our nautical brethren. Your mystic ways have always been a mystery wrapped in an enigma to we crabs. I particularly like the way that the steering thingy that you describe is variously ascribed to Lord Kitchener, or Admiral Kitchen, or a Kitchen who was not an Admiral. Excellent stuff! The more humdrum the device the more obscure its origins, rule #1 in the Boys Bumper Book of Spiffing Yarns. More please!
Danny, your steady yet precise progress seems to have been temporarily impaired by this sudden bottleneck of Ronald Shiner style Reminisces of a Recruit tales. Hopefully the traffic jam will ease as quickly as it formed in the way of such things, and we can enjoy yet more of your story. It is after all that of someone who did indeed Gain an RAF Pilots Brevet in WWII!
Edited to add that the above comment was merely a personal and selfish desire to hear more from Danny. It is in no way meant to be critical of those whose many interesting stories have filled out our understanding of the process of Joining HM Forces. If this thread isn't preserved for posterity as a unique historical document because of its many contributors and their varied tales then history will be the worse for it.
So an unreserved thanks to one and all for their 'dits' (as MPN11 has it) and keep them coming. I just felt that Danny might be waiting his turn somewhat, and I suspect that all here agree that it is always his turn and is rather for us to wait ours.
Clumsily put and I hope not out of order. Apologies to one and all if so.
Last edited by Chugalug2; 11th Dec 2013 at 12:06.
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Often in Jersey, but mainly in the past.
Age: 79
Posts: 7,810
Received 136 Likes
on
64 Posts
I've done my dit, as I had the impression Danny42C was "absent muse" and wanted a break 
I'll do a "contrast and compare" at some stage, between BRNC (63/4) and OCTU (65) ... sorry, I was previously 62?) rejected as "unsuitable" for a Cranwell Cadetship, so I were a common hofficer
I'll do a "contrast and compare" at some stage, between BRNC (63/4) and OCTU (65) ... sorry, I was previously 62?) rejected as "unsuitable" for a Cranwell Cadetship, so I were a common hofficer
Looks like which ever way we joined up we were all in the same initial training boat. So we will wait for Danny to steer us back to shore before the Mods pull the plug and we are all shipwrecked. All the nautical allusions out of respect for the Senior Service from a 'crab' .
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: very west
Age: 65
Posts: 262
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Let's hear more from Danny.
Chugalug wrote:
I just felt that Danny might be waiting his turn somewhat, and I suspect that all here agree that it is always his turn and is rather for us to wait ours.
Wholeheartedly agree, and am waiting impatiently for Danny's next bit.
Camlobe
P.S.
Chug, no offence taken, so no apology needed.
I just felt that Danny might be waiting his turn somewhat, and I suspect that all here agree that it is always his turn and is rather for us to wait ours.
Wholeheartedly agree, and am waiting impatiently for Danny's next bit.
Camlobe
P.S.
Chug, no offence taken, so no apology needed.
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Often in Jersey, but mainly in the past.
Age: 79
Posts: 7,810
Received 136 Likes
on
64 Posts
Originally Posted by ancientaviator62
Looks like which ever way we joined up we were all in the same initial training boat. So we will wait for Danny to steer us back to shore before the Mods pull the plug and we are all shipwrecked. All the nautical allusions out of respect for the Senior Service from a 'crab' .
Thanks for your nautical indulgence, folks. I have nothing of significance to tell now, except the odd side moments. I won't mention Happy Hour. I poured a glass of wine an hour ago
Originally Posted by Chugalug
I just felt that Danny might be waiting his turn somewhat, and I suspect that all here agree that it is always his turn and is rather for us to wait ours.
"Thread calling Danny-Boy"
When to keep schtum!
One of the many lectures we had during early days at RAFC Cranwell was from the RAF Paying Agents, who explained how our mighty 16/3d per day would be paid into our accounts.
If I recall correctly, there were 2 agents in those days. One was Cox & Kings and the other (I think) was Glyn Mills. The lecture was being given by some smarmy banker, who advised us that it would be 'easier' for all concerned if we opened accounts at Cox & Kings.
This went completely against the advice I'd had from my own bank - "Don't move your account as you'd just be a number with them, whereas we know you personally". I casually mentioned this to my fellow cadets and others agreed.
Anyway, in the afternoon we were studying Service Writing or something equally exciting, when in came one of the 'D' Sqn Flt Cdrs. A weasely looking engineering officer (I think?), with something of the Reinhard Heydrich about his manner - and expression.
"Did one of you advise people not to open a bank account with Cox & Kings?", he demanded to know. Well, fortunately the blank stare technique had become well-practised by then, thanks to 'crowing' - so I wisely kept schtum. In fact I wasn't being in the least bit dishonest as I hadn't actually said "Don't open an account with Cox & Kings", I'd said "I've been advised not to move my existing account".
This 'D' Sqn Reichsprotektor's eyes swept the room looking for signs of guilt; finding none, he turned on his heel and left the room.
When to keep quiet was rapidly becoming second nature!
If I recall correctly, there were 2 agents in those days. One was Cox & Kings and the other (I think) was Glyn Mills. The lecture was being given by some smarmy banker, who advised us that it would be 'easier' for all concerned if we opened accounts at Cox & Kings.
This went completely against the advice I'd had from my own bank - "Don't move your account as you'd just be a number with them, whereas we know you personally". I casually mentioned this to my fellow cadets and others agreed.
Anyway, in the afternoon we were studying Service Writing or something equally exciting, when in came one of the 'D' Sqn Flt Cdrs. A weasely looking engineering officer (I think?), with something of the Reinhard Heydrich about his manner - and expression.
"Did one of you advise people not to open a bank account with Cox & Kings?", he demanded to know. Well, fortunately the blank stare technique had become well-practised by then, thanks to 'crowing' - so I wisely kept schtum. In fact I wasn't being in the least bit dishonest as I hadn't actually said "Don't open an account with Cox & Kings", I'd said "I've been advised not to move my existing account".
This 'D' Sqn Reichsprotektor's eyes swept the room looking for signs of guilt; finding none, he turned on his heel and left the room.
When to keep quiet was rapidly becoming second nature!
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Often in Jersey, but mainly in the past.
Age: 79
Posts: 7,810
Received 136 Likes
on
64 Posts
Another blast from the past ... Yes, at OCTU we were 'assigned' to either C&K or Glyns alphabetically if we didn't have an extant account. I think A-N went to C&K, with whom I retain a financial relationship to this day. CBA to change - never had a problem with them. Had to use HSBC in Singapore, though, and then shuffle funds between SIN and UK, which was a right PITA.
Doubloons are a Gentleman's way of banking, although Guineas, Pandas and Eagles are also acceptable.
Doubloons are a Gentleman's way of banking, although Guineas, Pandas and Eagles are also acceptable.
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: UK
Posts: 217
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re Danny, I suppose the thread is called 'Earning a brevet in WW11' and I of course have read Danny's exploits with great interest and look forward to more. I wonder if the mods could split the thread and collate all of the initial training memories et al somewhere else as they too have been fascinating. Perhaps 'Forgotten voices of Cranwell and Swinderby' or such like.
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Often in Jersey, but mainly in the past.
Age: 79
Posts: 7,810
Received 136 Likes
on
64 Posts
A belated Welcome to PPRuNe, Dave Wilson, and I will take a hit for that recent major deviation on behalf of others, especially as it is one is one of the most recent and expansive.
Yes, it's not as specific as the Thread title implies. Indeed, it strayed into wartime experiences after gaining the brevet at a fairly early stage (relatively speaking). And the early days of ATC, and other subjects ... So Danny has his wings ... Goodbye?
Where is the cut-off? Wings parade? And where does the rest go?
I defer to our Moderators, who have extensive experience and wisdom. I suspect their tolerance of the nostalgia, and general meandering, expressed here says much for their judgment.
Yes, it's not as specific as the Thread title implies. Indeed, it strayed into wartime experiences after gaining the brevet at a fairly early stage (relatively speaking). And the early days of ATC, and other subjects ... So Danny has his wings ... Goodbye?
Where is the cut-off? Wings parade? And where does the rest go?
I defer to our Moderators, who have extensive experience and wisdom. I suspect their tolerance of the nostalgia, and general meandering, expressed here says much for their judgment.
Chaps - shouldn't we just let the thread simply go with the flow. After all, it's one of the few good ones left on the PRuNe military forum....
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: 59°09N 002°38W (IATA: SOY, ICAO: EGER)
Age: 80
Posts: 812
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Beagle said
I second that!
Chaps - shouldn't we just let the thread simply go with the flow. After all, it's one of the few good ones left on the PRuNe military forum....
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Often in Jersey, but mainly in the past.
Age: 79
Posts: 7,810
Received 136 Likes
on
64 Posts
Almost (but not quite) the only thread I bother to read, Beags, which must say something.
However, a point has been made, with validity, so let's not unleash the handbags. Dave is entitled to express a view.
The thread may possibly need another title, especially since I don't recall WW Eleven
What we actually need is Danny to stop sitting on his bum at Gut, and get himself to Shawbury to be an ATC teeecher.
However, a point has been made, with validity, so let's not unleash the handbags. Dave is entitled to express a view.
The thread may possibly need another title, especially since I don't recall WW Eleven
What we actually need is Danny to stop sitting on his bum at Gut, and get himself to Shawbury to be an ATC teeecher.
Chaps - shouldn't we just let the thread simply go with the flow. After all, it's one of the few good ones left on the PPRuNe military forum.... - BEagle
Thoroughly agree or, as some posters seen to love saying, concur. **
The thread may possibly need another title, especially since I don't recall WW Eleven - MPN
Careful, MPN, otherwise we will have the Walts putting up their gongs for WWs III to X inclusive!
Jack
** Which in my experience should only be used by someone senior to the writer/speaker - so perhaps I should settle for "concur"?
Thoroughly agree or, as some posters seen to love saying, concur. **
The thread may possibly need another title, especially since I don't recall WW Eleven - MPN
Careful, MPN, otherwise we will have the Walts putting up their gongs for WWs III to X inclusive!
Jack
** Which in my experience should only be used by someone senior to the writer/speaker - so perhaps I should settle for "concur"?
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: very west
Age: 65
Posts: 262
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A decision is required
Gentlemen,
If I may press upon you all for a moment. This thread is of interest to countless readers and contributors. By virtue of its total content, it is, as has been mentioned, of considerable historic importance, and if for that reason alone, it should be preserved for our younger and interested up-and-coming military aviators.
One of the most important parts of life in uniform is the ability to link to the historic roots of that service, no matter which colour the uniform may be. This thread was started, albeit reluctantly by the late cliff nemo, and has naturally evolved entirely due to the twists, turns, humour and sadness of its irreplaceable contributors (myself excepted).
The title of the thread may seem to some to be less important than than its total content. Others my view it as a place purely for contributions from participants eligible only if they meet the criteria of the title.
Sadly, as we know only too well, if the second view is the only one used, this wonderful thread will be rather thin in its content.
Perhaps, in the best tradition of our fine service, which has never been a democracy, this is a decision to be made by the Senior Member of the crew room.
There, I have passed the buck, and the "Boss", our missing Danny, can carry the can.
Over to you, Sir.
Camlobe
"Never confuse qualification with capability." Camlobe 1984
If I may press upon you all for a moment. This thread is of interest to countless readers and contributors. By virtue of its total content, it is, as has been mentioned, of considerable historic importance, and if for that reason alone, it should be preserved for our younger and interested up-and-coming military aviators.
One of the most important parts of life in uniform is the ability to link to the historic roots of that service, no matter which colour the uniform may be. This thread was started, albeit reluctantly by the late cliff nemo, and has naturally evolved entirely due to the twists, turns, humour and sadness of its irreplaceable contributors (myself excepted).
The title of the thread may seem to some to be less important than than its total content. Others my view it as a place purely for contributions from participants eligible only if they meet the criteria of the title.
Sadly, as we know only too well, if the second view is the only one used, this wonderful thread will be rather thin in its content.
Perhaps, in the best tradition of our fine service, which has never been a democracy, this is a decision to be made by the Senior Member of the crew room.
There, I have passed the buck, and the "Boss", our missing Danny, can carry the can.
Over to you, Sir.
Camlobe
"Never confuse qualification with capability." Camlobe 1984
As the person who put a spoke in the wheel by suggesting that we make a little more room for Danny, that was all that I was calling for. I would not suggest for one moment that other posters should go elsewhere with their tales of gaining a Pilot Brevet, other Brevets, or indeed any other Rite of Passage, into the RAF, FAA or AAC.
This thread has broken so many of the OP restraints that WWII (not WW11
) has now been left far behind. My point is that we still have that link with Cliff et al in Danny, and we are all keen for him to go on telling his story. If for any reason he needs a bit of a sabbatical from what must not become an onerous task for him then again my apologies, not least to Danny. We have many offerings to keep the pot boiling meantime.
In short I agree with Beagle (a variation on "I agree with Nick"!) to go with the flow. Just make sure that Danny is accorded the fast flowing current mid stream in this best of all PPRuNe threads!
This thread has broken so many of the OP restraints that WWII (not WW11
) has now been left far behind. My point is that we still have that link with Cliff et al in Danny, and we are all keen for him to go on telling his story. If for any reason he needs a bit of a sabbatical from what must not become an onerous task for him then again my apologies, not least to Danny. We have many offerings to keep the pot boiling meantime.In short I agree with Beagle (a variation on "I agree with Nick"!) to go with the flow. Just make sure that Danny is accorded the fast flowing current mid stream in this best of all PPRuNe threads!
Guest
Posts: n/a
Danny says: "Reculer pour mieux Sauter".
Now God Rest Ye Merry, Gentlemen ! Danny is Resting on his Arms Reversed, and fully enjoying the hoo-ha that has suddenly erupted.
He has, if you recall, in the past often said that this Prince of Threads must on no account become a Monologue, or a Duet, or even a Trio. Emphatically, no one individual or group has any ownership rights in it whatever. This is a FORUM: it is open to all men of good will all the time to put their two cents' worth in (subject always to the Moderators).
If we stick to our old Crewroom analogy, we can't go far wrong. (Resume normal navigation)...D.
camlobe,
So you got there at last ! Congratulations ! Now for a life of idle luxury (well, you could dream, couldn't you). And the Vultures retire baffled, balked of their prey !
The Tripacer - only seen pictures of it - wasn't that the thing that had ailerons and rudder connected together, so you did everything with one wheel/yoke ? Or am I thinking of something else ?
My abiding memory of AOC's Inspections was the poor devil I found in bed in my (otherwise) spotless hut ten minutes before the Great Man was due to inspect, and his (the poor devil's) eviction and shivering exile over the hedge until the All Clear - and the Polyfiller Cake !....D.
Dave Wilson,
I had the (one and only) OMQ at Breighton in '63-'64. The Bloodhounds had left, there was no flying (or anything else) at all then...D.
Chugalug,
I never knew that your sojourn in the premier Cadet College in the land lasted three years in those days. No wonder you were all imbuded with that air of effortless superiority which marked you out from the rabble !(only joking !)
I, too, welcome the sudden influx of the Royal Navy into our incomparable Thread. Ah, for the times when we flew the aircraft, and let them sail the boats on whose roofs we landed. (This was a sensible division of labour) Let the Cobbler stick to his Last ! All this talk about the many types of Boats makes me doubly glad that the unscheduled end of my war saved me from becoming the proud (?) temporary owner of a Bomb Scow.
Danny does indeed wait in the wings, but as interested as anybody else in the long tales of misfortune and maltreatment that follow the Taking of the Shilling. It always was and will always be that the Ardua must come first before the Ad Astra. There is still plenty of my story to come. (And when the Good Lord made Time, he made Plenty of It).
Your: "it is always his turn" - No, it's not ! - I'm not the "Primus inter Pares" here (read my discaimer above). But thank you for the kind and considerate words....D.
MPN11, ancientaviator, camlobe (again) and MPN11 (again),
As above to Chugalug ! I'm enjoying the rest, enables me to get a Draft or two ahead of the game.
MPN11,
(your quote: ["I feel rather bad and dirty now"] Get that idea right out of your head at once !....D.
Dave Wilson,
No, if you don't mind. I know the Thread title is limiting - and must one day be irrelevant - but let's stay in the one Crewroom together till that happens (Mods to note, please)...D.
MPN11 (once again),
I think your insight into the Moderators' view of us and our maunderings is correct. Where is the cut-off ? There cannot be a cut off - Our stories form one long contination of that irrepressible RAF spirit which flowered during the war, and has lasted among us ever since. Prune became Bloggs, but he is the same man, with the same host of helpers - ever young at heart and cheerful....D.
Goodnight to you all - never fear, you'll hear from me again soon (I hope !),
Danny.
He has, if you recall, in the past often said that this Prince of Threads must on no account become a Monologue, or a Duet, or even a Trio. Emphatically, no one individual or group has any ownership rights in it whatever. This is a FORUM: it is open to all men of good will all the time to put their two cents' worth in (subject always to the Moderators).
If we stick to our old Crewroom analogy, we can't go far wrong. (Resume normal navigation)...D.
camlobe,
So you got there at last ! Congratulations ! Now for a life of idle luxury (well, you could dream, couldn't you). And the Vultures retire baffled, balked of their prey !
The Tripacer - only seen pictures of it - wasn't that the thing that had ailerons and rudder connected together, so you did everything with one wheel/yoke ? Or am I thinking of something else ?
My abiding memory of AOC's Inspections was the poor devil I found in bed in my (otherwise) spotless hut ten minutes before the Great Man was due to inspect, and his (the poor devil's) eviction and shivering exile over the hedge until the All Clear - and the Polyfiller Cake !....D.
Dave Wilson,
I had the (one and only) OMQ at Breighton in '63-'64. The Bloodhounds had left, there was no flying (or anything else) at all then...D.
Chugalug,
I never knew that your sojourn in the premier Cadet College in the land lasted three years in those days. No wonder you were all imbuded with that air of effortless superiority which marked you out from the rabble !(only joking !)
I, too, welcome the sudden influx of the Royal Navy into our incomparable Thread. Ah, for the times when we flew the aircraft, and let them sail the boats on whose roofs we landed. (This was a sensible division of labour) Let the Cobbler stick to his Last ! All this talk about the many types of Boats makes me doubly glad that the unscheduled end of my war saved me from becoming the proud (?) temporary owner of a Bomb Scow.
Danny does indeed wait in the wings, but as interested as anybody else in the long tales of misfortune and maltreatment that follow the Taking of the Shilling. It always was and will always be that the Ardua must come first before the Ad Astra. There is still plenty of my story to come. (And when the Good Lord made Time, he made Plenty of It).
Your: "it is always his turn" - No, it's not ! - I'm not the "Primus inter Pares" here (read my discaimer above). But thank you for the kind and considerate words....D.
MPN11, ancientaviator, camlobe (again) and MPN11 (again),
As above to Chugalug ! I'm enjoying the rest, enables me to get a Draft or two ahead of the game.
MPN11,
(your quote: ["I feel rather bad and dirty now"] Get that idea right out of your head at once !....D.
Dave Wilson,
No, if you don't mind. I know the Thread title is limiting - and must one day be irrelevant - but let's stay in the one Crewroom together till that happens (Mods to note, please)...D.
MPN11 (once again),
I think your insight into the Moderators' view of us and our maunderings is correct. Where is the cut-off ? There cannot be a cut off - Our stories form one long contination of that irrepressible RAF spirit which flowered during the war, and has lasted among us ever since. Prune became Bloggs, but he is the same man, with the same host of helpers - ever young at heart and cheerful....D.
Goodnight to you all - never fear, you'll hear from me again soon (I hope !),
Danny.
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: UK
Posts: 217
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I had the (one and only) OMQ at Breighton in '63-'64. The Bloodhounds had left, there was no flying (or anything else) at all then...D.
Edit: By the way Danny I don't know where you live but I would be honoured to fly you up there if you can still climb in and out of an aircraft!
Last edited by Dave Wilson; 11th Dec 2013 at 22:55.