Gaining An R.A.F Pilots Brevet In WW II
I was detached up to Kai Tak in 1969 from 110 Sqn, Seletar and the airfield, as such, was completely different. The new runway pushing out to Kowloon bay and the old east/west runway was part of the civil ramp with the outline of a 747 painted on it for planning purposes. At the top of Lion Rock north of the airfield was the radar unit and one of the controllers, having finished his shift on a claggy day, was getting into his car when a Japan Airlines 707 went through the car park.
On the western end of the New Territories was a miltary exercise area and one day the Royal Navy launched an assault from a carrier. Unfortunately they miscounted the headlands and deposited an entire Marine Commando in the Peoples Republic of China. Luckily the mistake was realised in good time and they were recovered before Hong Kong was invaded in retaliation.
I was there, in Shenzhen, during the handover in 1997. In fact the PLA helicopter units that moved into Sek Kong took off from my operating base. There were more than 50,000 PLA troops stationed along the Shenzhen coast to dissuade any Chinese nationals that may have thought that they had a right to go into Hong Kong. The situation did not materialise but they were ready for it.
At that period hotels were incredibly cheap because there were no tourists. They must have thought that the PLA were going to bayonet people in the streets. In fact, nothing changed apart from the fact the young ladies from Oz, NZ, and the UK weren't allowed to work in Hong Kong so we lost all of our best barmaids.
Last edited by Fareastdriver; 11th Jan 2015 at 20:14.
Guest
Posts: n/a
harrym,
What a fearsome picture of the approaches to Kai Tak you paint ! But in the matter of runways available, I may be able to trump you. As I understand it, you had the option of 13 or 25 for take-off, and for landings 13 and 31 (and occasionally 07). You were lucky !
At Cannanore I had just 28 (approx) for take-off (around 3,000 ft) and 10 for landing (upwind, downwind, crosswind or whatever
) - winds were light in the dry-weather season).
Missed Approach Procedure ? (wasn't any !). Abandon Take-off ? (just hope you could stop before going over the cliff !). We made out all right, but there were some hairy moments.
A Dak got in and out a couple of times in December '45, with the (Army) CinC and his guests on a hunting party, but I was up a Kashmiri mountain at the time. Shortly before I went away, we had a Mosquito Mk.16 and a Thunderbolt II on loan for a few weeks, and they managed all right, too.
Congratulations on your two years wartime survival, which entitled you to the "two dogs fighting" on your wristband. Must tell you sometime of the time when I was two weeks overdue for my Crown, but never did get it (or the money !) Still rankles.
Keep the stories coming (and what happened after it was All Over ?)
Cheers, Danny.
What a fearsome picture of the approaches to Kai Tak you paint ! But in the matter of runways available, I may be able to trump you. As I understand it, you had the option of 13 or 25 for take-off, and for landings 13 and 31 (and occasionally 07). You were lucky !
At Cannanore I had just 28 (approx) for take-off (around 3,000 ft) and 10 for landing (upwind, downwind, crosswind or whatever
) - winds were light in the dry-weather season). Missed Approach Procedure ? (wasn't any !). Abandon Take-off ? (just hope you could stop before going over the cliff !). We made out all right, but there were some hairy moments.
A Dak got in and out a couple of times in December '45, with the (Army) CinC and his guests on a hunting party, but I was up a Kashmiri mountain at the time. Shortly before I went away, we had a Mosquito Mk.16 and a Thunderbolt II on loan for a few weeks, and they managed all right, too.
Congratulations on your two years wartime survival, which entitled you to the "two dogs fighting" on your wristband. Must tell you sometime of the time when I was two weeks overdue for my Crown, but never did get it (or the money !) Still rankles.
Keep the stories coming (and what happened after it was All Over ?)
Cheers, Danny.
@Blind Pew ,
Next time I am in Skerries I will call in for sure,
Might I invite you to join us for a low level tour of Dublin on the 24th?
Thanks to the folks over in the Private flying forum I'm running a few Aviation related day trips and it would be an honour to have you and your stories with us for the day. I'll drop you a P.M. with the details (all free of course).
Rgds,
Fionn
Next time I am in Skerries I will call in for sure,
Might I invite you to join us for a low level tour of Dublin on the 24th?
Thanks to the folks over in the Private flying forum I'm running a few Aviation related day trips and it would be an honour to have you and your stories with us for the day. I'll drop you a P.M. with the details (all free of course).
Rgds,
Fionn
Join Date: Oct 1998
Location: Kalgoorlie, W.A. , Australia
Age: 86
Posts: 458
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The policemen seem to be getting younger
Funny how when you are 19 the reverse seems true.
Thanks Brian 48nav for doing a bit of research. Bill Porter in charge of our course seemed to be much older than the 15 year age difference.
Fred Harris retired about April '58, he was quite a character and considered any thing that could fly faster than a Sunderland to be inheritably dangerous, so much so that he refused the offer a Vampire flight to experience jet travel. One evening when he was my instructor on a Rebeca babs detail, he started beating the nav. table like a demented dervish. I looked askingly at him and he flipped my intercom switch to radio compass for me to be deafened by a Gene Kruppa drum solo. That isn't the only memory of that detail, the procedure was to go out to Bembridge turn and come back to Thorney on the eureka bit followed by the babs procedure and repeat for 2 hours or more. However as the evening progressed the turning point became Newport, Ventnor even St Catherine's Point and the rate of turn decreased more and more. Eventually Fred enquired of our sergeant pilot what was going on to be told "They say there's a nudist colony down here somewhere and I'm going to find it".
Thanks Brian 48nav for doing a bit of research. Bill Porter in charge of our course seemed to be much older than the 15 year age difference.
Fred Harris retired about April '58, he was quite a character and considered any thing that could fly faster than a Sunderland to be inheritably dangerous, so much so that he refused the offer a Vampire flight to experience jet travel. One evening when he was my instructor on a Rebeca babs detail, he started beating the nav. table like a demented dervish. I looked askingly at him and he flipped my intercom switch to radio compass for me to be deafened by a Gene Kruppa drum solo. That isn't the only memory of that detail, the procedure was to go out to Bembridge turn and come back to Thorney on the eureka bit followed by the babs procedure and repeat for 2 hours or more. However as the evening progressed the turning point became Newport, Ventnor even St Catherine's Point and the rate of turn decreased more and more. Eventually Fred enquired of our sergeant pilot what was going on to be told "They say there's a nudist colony down here somewhere and I'm going to find it".
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Fairford, Glos
Age: 99
Posts: 155
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Awkward airfields - Dhala
Pse enlighten me Danny as to location of Cannanore - sounds like somewhere on the NW frontier and not dissimilar to Dhala in the Aden protectorate, about which a small memory may be found below.
During a regular visit to Aden with the Transport Command Examining Unit, in addition to my Beverley commitments I had been ordered to categorise the Twin Pioneer squadron commander. Having no Twin Pin experience whatever I was not over-happy with this situation, but consoled myself with the knowledge that since he already held a "B" category he was therefore presumably fairly competent.
And so it proved. The circuit work was an eye-opener, and included a backwards flight demonstration achieved by flying at minimum airspeed (something absurd like 35 knots) into a strong headwind at circuit height. Opportunities for route checks were limited to a choice of up-country strips so, never having been to Dhala, I decided to see it from an aircraft for which restricted field length held no terrors.
Checking in at the appointed hour, I was advised that my presence would render the aircraft overweight. An easy solution was found by giving the navigator an afternoon off, the Captain saying (fairly truthfully) that the TP knew its way without human assistance. In view of the circumstances I raised no objection, being well aware that in this theatre rules had to be bent more than occasionally if the job were to get done, and recalled an occasion six months before when I had expressed surprise on boarding an engines-running Bev and found two of the oil pressure gauges reading zero. On my remarking this to the captain (Tony Pearson, the wingco flying no less), he pointed out that if they were forced to await spares from UK at least half the fleet would be grounded; besides, oil pressure must be OK or the engines would surely stop, a logic with which I was forced to agree.
The Twin Pin CO had of course been to Dhala countless times before, so following a very short transit we were soon on the slightly alarming final approach toward that forbidding rock face at the runway’s far end; offloading of the cargo was a fairly swift process, so we were soon back inside. Now the Twin Pioneer had a bang-start system, with a rotating magazine holding about half a dozen cartridges positioned on the cabin partition above and behind the captain's head. Following firing-up of the first engine the magazine had to be rotated, this achieved by the pilot reaching behind with his right hand and pulling on a sort of lavatory chain arrangement. No problem with the starboard engine, but subsequent pulling of the chain resulted only in a string of curses for apparently the magazine had failed to index properly. A quick investigation revealed it to be immovable; "feel like staying the night here?" I was asked, "not much I can do about this, and it's too late to get help from Khormaksar". Having heard lurid tales of small men with long knives who reputedly lurked unseen thereabouts, I enquired what his local knowledge might suggest. "There is a way out", he replied," but highly unofficial and definitely not approved of even in Aden". Saying I had been party to the breaking of a few rules already, I intimated that one more sin would make no difference to me.
"Stay here, and press the booster coil button when I give you the sign"; saying which, he exited the aircraft with a large coil of rope round his shoulder in the manner of a hangman off to a job. Finding some steps lying around, he gave one end of the rope several turns round the port propeller boss and walked off to the side, hailing the inevitable solitary Arab squatting on a nearby rock: ‘...hey, Ali, come and give us a hand’. Receiving his sign, I pressed the button while he and his companion hauled vigorously on the rope, the engine burst into life, and with a wave to Ali he came back inside. In no time at all we were off again, carrying out a mail drop somewhere en route. The actual disgorging of the bags fell to me, but at this distance in time I recall little about the process other than getting covered in dust; I rather think the bags were ejected through a hatch in the floor. All in all, the whole trip was completely and utterly different from the Shiny Fleet way of things that was then my usual lot; not just a window on a different way of life, but also an interlude that much increased my respect for those to whom it was routine.
------------------
As for my current series on SA Asia, any continuation beyond the next and final instalment would be somewhat OT; on the other hand I suppose one could argue that, having qualified during WW2, any further flight experiences could possibly be recounted here on the basis that they were a continuation of my training - for, as we all know, one never stops learning!
But be warned - any such continuation would not be a continuous narrative as heretofore, but rather a disjointed collection of what (hopefully) might be some of the more interesting episodes and experiences in my later career (such as it was!).
During a regular visit to Aden with the Transport Command Examining Unit, in addition to my Beverley commitments I had been ordered to categorise the Twin Pioneer squadron commander. Having no Twin Pin experience whatever I was not over-happy with this situation, but consoled myself with the knowledge that since he already held a "B" category he was therefore presumably fairly competent.
And so it proved. The circuit work was an eye-opener, and included a backwards flight demonstration achieved by flying at minimum airspeed (something absurd like 35 knots) into a strong headwind at circuit height. Opportunities for route checks were limited to a choice of up-country strips so, never having been to Dhala, I decided to see it from an aircraft for which restricted field length held no terrors.
Checking in at the appointed hour, I was advised that my presence would render the aircraft overweight. An easy solution was found by giving the navigator an afternoon off, the Captain saying (fairly truthfully) that the TP knew its way without human assistance. In view of the circumstances I raised no objection, being well aware that in this theatre rules had to be bent more than occasionally if the job were to get done, and recalled an occasion six months before when I had expressed surprise on boarding an engines-running Bev and found two of the oil pressure gauges reading zero. On my remarking this to the captain (Tony Pearson, the wingco flying no less), he pointed out that if they were forced to await spares from UK at least half the fleet would be grounded; besides, oil pressure must be OK or the engines would surely stop, a logic with which I was forced to agree.
The Twin Pin CO had of course been to Dhala countless times before, so following a very short transit we were soon on the slightly alarming final approach toward that forbidding rock face at the runway’s far end; offloading of the cargo was a fairly swift process, so we were soon back inside. Now the Twin Pioneer had a bang-start system, with a rotating magazine holding about half a dozen cartridges positioned on the cabin partition above and behind the captain's head. Following firing-up of the first engine the magazine had to be rotated, this achieved by the pilot reaching behind with his right hand and pulling on a sort of lavatory chain arrangement. No problem with the starboard engine, but subsequent pulling of the chain resulted only in a string of curses for apparently the magazine had failed to index properly. A quick investigation revealed it to be immovable; "feel like staying the night here?" I was asked, "not much I can do about this, and it's too late to get help from Khormaksar". Having heard lurid tales of small men with long knives who reputedly lurked unseen thereabouts, I enquired what his local knowledge might suggest. "There is a way out", he replied," but highly unofficial and definitely not approved of even in Aden". Saying I had been party to the breaking of a few rules already, I intimated that one more sin would make no difference to me.
"Stay here, and press the booster coil button when I give you the sign"; saying which, he exited the aircraft with a large coil of rope round his shoulder in the manner of a hangman off to a job. Finding some steps lying around, he gave one end of the rope several turns round the port propeller boss and walked off to the side, hailing the inevitable solitary Arab squatting on a nearby rock: ‘...hey, Ali, come and give us a hand’. Receiving his sign, I pressed the button while he and his companion hauled vigorously on the rope, the engine burst into life, and with a wave to Ali he came back inside. In no time at all we were off again, carrying out a mail drop somewhere en route. The actual disgorging of the bags fell to me, but at this distance in time I recall little about the process other than getting covered in dust; I rather think the bags were ejected through a hatch in the floor. All in all, the whole trip was completely and utterly different from the Shiny Fleet way of things that was then my usual lot; not just a window on a different way of life, but also an interlude that much increased my respect for those to whom it was routine.
------------------
As for my current series on SA Asia, any continuation beyond the next and final instalment would be somewhat OT; on the other hand I suppose one could argue that, having qualified during WW2, any further flight experiences could possibly be recounted here on the basis that they were a continuation of my training - for, as we all know, one never stops learning!
But be warned - any such continuation would not be a continuous narrative as heretofore, but rather a disjointed collection of what (hopefully) might be some of the more interesting episodes and experiences in my later career (such as it was!).
Guest
Posts: n/a
The Rope Trick ?
harrym,
I've heard of this before (but never seen it). My version involved a Dak, a rope and a L/Rover: but the idea was the same ! (worked, too).
Cannanore.
Far from the NW Frontier and the Great Game, I'm afraid ! The tale starts P.152, my Post #3036 et seq.
More Thoughts on Warrant Officers.
Came across this (to Chugalug) on my search for the above :
"I fear that the privilege of being addressed in a polite and gentlemany manner was resticted to the "Lord's Anointed" who entered via the impressive portals of the RAF College, Cranwell".
"We "brutal and licentious soldiery", on the other hand, had to be addressed in the manner to which (it was assumed) we had been accustomed. It was par for the course: we let it go over our heads".
"As for Warrant Officers, it was amazing the amount of venom and pure contempt that they could pack into a simple "Sir". We tried to return it with interest as "Mister" Smith, but it was a feeble rejoinder in most cases. (As a matter of interest, we, when we were training in the U.S. Arnold Scheme, although only LACs, were addressed by all U.S. Enlisted Men as "Mister" in view of our pretended status of "Aviation Cadet". The Master Sergeant was, however, every bit as skilled in conveying the maximum of derision into the words)".
Wasn't there a Cadet Drill Sergeant at Sandhurst who put it in a nutshell: "I call you Sir, and you call me Sir. The difference is: you will mean it !"
And when (as regularly happened in my time) an officer was receiving flying instruction from a SNCO, you addressed your Instructor as "Sir", in recognition of his status as Captain of the aircraft.
Danny.
I've heard of this before (but never seen it). My version involved a Dak, a rope and a L/Rover: but the idea was the same ! (worked, too).
Cannanore.
Far from the NW Frontier and the Great Game, I'm afraid ! The tale starts P.152, my Post #3036 et seq.
More Thoughts on Warrant Officers.
Came across this (to Chugalug) on my search for the above :
"I fear that the privilege of being addressed in a polite and gentlemany manner was resticted to the "Lord's Anointed" who entered via the impressive portals of the RAF College, Cranwell".
"We "brutal and licentious soldiery", on the other hand, had to be addressed in the manner to which (it was assumed) we had been accustomed. It was par for the course: we let it go over our heads".
"As for Warrant Officers, it was amazing the amount of venom and pure contempt that they could pack into a simple "Sir". We tried to return it with interest as "Mister" Smith, but it was a feeble rejoinder in most cases. (As a matter of interest, we, when we were training in the U.S. Arnold Scheme, although only LACs, were addressed by all U.S. Enlisted Men as "Mister" in view of our pretended status of "Aviation Cadet". The Master Sergeant was, however, every bit as skilled in conveying the maximum of derision into the words)".
Wasn't there a Cadet Drill Sergeant at Sandhurst who put it in a nutshell: "I call you Sir, and you call me Sir. The difference is: you will mean it !"
And when (as regularly happened in my time) an officer was receiving flying instruction from a SNCO, you addressed your Instructor as "Sir", in recognition of his status as Captain of the aircraft.
Danny.
Your story about the engine oil pressure gauges reminds me of a characteristic the Puma HC1 helicopter sometimes had in the early days.
The engine fire detectors were a series of bi-metallic switches that would close when the engine bay temperature reached a certain level. Helicopters do not have the luxury of a constant flow of air though the engine bay so sometimes it gets very hot. In a downwind the situation can arise where the recirculating air can cause the temperature to rise sufficiently to illuminate the fire warning light even though there is not a fire and so it was with this aircraft.
I had a VIP on board; a staff officer of Air Rank who had come to see how we operated in Northern Ireland. He seemed incredibly keen as he had done all his weapon training and arrived looking like Rambo. It seemed a shame to put him on a milk run so I strapped him into my jump seat between we two pilots and we punched off down south to Armagh.
We were going to do a changeover shuttle between Bessbrook and Crossmaglen. The latter was right in the middle of the Republican area of Ulster and was a hotbed for the IRA. We took off from Bessbrook with a compliment of squaddies and I explained to him that we had a two hundred foot ceiling in this area because of SAM 7s and small arms. I also pointed out that we were weaving around the topography and forestry for the same reason. All this at 145 knots.
The Army post in Crossmaglen was in the police station on the north-eastern corner of the Shinty ground. The prevailing, south westerly wind was blowing and as it was unwise to approach over the town itself it meant a downwind approach and landing across the Shinty field. The Puma had no trouble with this so I flared off the speed and plonked it onto the landing pad. The crewman opened the doors and we started a high speed passenger changeover.
That’s when both fire lights came on.
The reaction of my co-pilot and myself was similar, a resigned grunt, but our Air Officer went ballistic. He was punched me on the shoulder and frantically pointing at the fire lights. I tried to reassure him but he was having nothing of it. He had obviously been in an environment where if the light isn’t put out in ten seconds you eject. Eventually I had to remind him that I was the captain, I knew what was going on with my aircraft and would he please shut up.
Or words to that effect.
It worked either because he understood my reasoning or he wasn’t expecting to be addressed that way by a Flight Lieutenant. I was fireproof; I had said ‘Sir’ twice.
The doors were then closed and the crewman cleared us to go. In the hover, half turn into wind and take off across the Shinty field. Halfway across the field both engine fire warning lights, as expected, faded out.
He was very good about it. He apologised for trying to tell me what to do and accepted wholeheartedly the correction that I had given him. I was quite happy. He had learned more about how we operated than any series of lectures of briefings could teach him.
The engine fire detectors were a series of bi-metallic switches that would close when the engine bay temperature reached a certain level. Helicopters do not have the luxury of a constant flow of air though the engine bay so sometimes it gets very hot. In a downwind the situation can arise where the recirculating air can cause the temperature to rise sufficiently to illuminate the fire warning light even though there is not a fire and so it was with this aircraft.
I had a VIP on board; a staff officer of Air Rank who had come to see how we operated in Northern Ireland. He seemed incredibly keen as he had done all his weapon training and arrived looking like Rambo. It seemed a shame to put him on a milk run so I strapped him into my jump seat between we two pilots and we punched off down south to Armagh.
We were going to do a changeover shuttle between Bessbrook and Crossmaglen. The latter was right in the middle of the Republican area of Ulster and was a hotbed for the IRA. We took off from Bessbrook with a compliment of squaddies and I explained to him that we had a two hundred foot ceiling in this area because of SAM 7s and small arms. I also pointed out that we were weaving around the topography and forestry for the same reason. All this at 145 knots.
The Army post in Crossmaglen was in the police station on the north-eastern corner of the Shinty ground. The prevailing, south westerly wind was blowing and as it was unwise to approach over the town itself it meant a downwind approach and landing across the Shinty field. The Puma had no trouble with this so I flared off the speed and plonked it onto the landing pad. The crewman opened the doors and we started a high speed passenger changeover.
That’s when both fire lights came on.
The reaction of my co-pilot and myself was similar, a resigned grunt, but our Air Officer went ballistic. He was punched me on the shoulder and frantically pointing at the fire lights. I tried to reassure him but he was having nothing of it. He had obviously been in an environment where if the light isn’t put out in ten seconds you eject. Eventually I had to remind him that I was the captain, I knew what was going on with my aircraft and would he please shut up.
Or words to that effect.
It worked either because he understood my reasoning or he wasn’t expecting to be addressed that way by a Flight Lieutenant. I was fireproof; I had said ‘Sir’ twice.
The doors were then closed and the crewman cleared us to go. In the hover, half turn into wind and take off across the Shinty field. Halfway across the field both engine fire warning lights, as expected, faded out.
He was very good about it. He apologised for trying to tell me what to do and accepted wholeheartedly the correction that I had given him. I was quite happy. He had learned more about how we operated than any series of lectures of briefings could teach him.
harrym, disjoint at your leisure, sir. Your logic re learning throughout life is impeccable and given the cast iron case that you share with Danny, that you gained your brevet in WWII, no-one can gainsay it. Your willingness as a 'trapper', to do in Rome as the Romans do, does you great credit. Would that all were as accommodating! Wing at Changi decided that SOPs were conspicuous by their absence in supply dropping sorties in Borneo. They further decided that they would carry out such a detachment themselves, sticking rigidly to laid down procedure, and then have us follow suit. You can, of course, guess what's coming next!
Some of the DZs were right up on the border with Indonesia, and so it was that after the good and the great returned to Changi, the replacement crew, drawn from the not so good and the lowly, found the border to be conveniently marked by colourful SEAC chutes that Wing had dropped into the jungle canopy there. The Indonesians, to their great credit, left them undisturbed despite the fact that they were now theirs. No more was said about SOPs and we just carried on dropping supplies onto the various DZs by whatever means that worked!
Your airfield plate for Kai Tak is both fascinating and fearsome, as Danny says! Suddenly the later brand new north/south runway built to the west of it seems tame and fluffy, a mere bagatelle! It did not seem that way though on my first visit there in a Hastings. I was a very new and very raw co-pilot. The captain by comparison was the highly experienced, respected, and much renowned Jack Huntington. We started the approach to the west of Victoria Island as you describe, supposedly homing in on the NDB at Stone Cutters Island. The weather was foul, socked in by the dreaded Crachin:-
crachin : A Dictionary of Weather - oi
There was a cb sitting over Victoria which our 'clockwork' GEC radio compass presumably found far more compelling than the Stone Cutters NDB. In a brief period of improved visibility through the clattering wipers we suddenly spotted lights in front when they should have been below, and we were obviously heading for rising ground! Captain Jack issued one of his select Yorkshire expletives, did a 180 there and then, and told the sig to tell ATC that we were heading back south towards the South China Sea, contrary to the complex MAP that called for continuing to Stone Cutters regardless. A vital lesson for my young and eager brain that, like you, sometimes the book is for throwing straight out of the window!
Some of the DZs were right up on the border with Indonesia, and so it was that after the good and the great returned to Changi, the replacement crew, drawn from the not so good and the lowly, found the border to be conveniently marked by colourful SEAC chutes that Wing had dropped into the jungle canopy there. The Indonesians, to their great credit, left them undisturbed despite the fact that they were now theirs. No more was said about SOPs and we just carried on dropping supplies onto the various DZs by whatever means that worked!
Your airfield plate for Kai Tak is both fascinating and fearsome, as Danny says! Suddenly the later brand new north/south runway built to the west of it seems tame and fluffy, a mere bagatelle! It did not seem that way though on my first visit there in a Hastings. I was a very new and very raw co-pilot. The captain by comparison was the highly experienced, respected, and much renowned Jack Huntington. We started the approach to the west of Victoria Island as you describe, supposedly homing in on the NDB at Stone Cutters Island. The weather was foul, socked in by the dreaded Crachin:-
crachin : A Dictionary of Weather - oi
There was a cb sitting over Victoria which our 'clockwork' GEC radio compass presumably found far more compelling than the Stone Cutters NDB. In a brief period of improved visibility through the clattering wipers we suddenly spotted lights in front when they should have been below, and we were obviously heading for rising ground! Captain Jack issued one of his select Yorkshire expletives, did a 180 there and then, and told the sig to tell ATC that we were heading back south towards the South China Sea, contrary to the complex MAP that called for continuing to Stone Cutters regardless. A vital lesson for my young and eager brain that, like you, sometimes the book is for throwing straight out of the window!
Last edited by Chugalug2; 12th Jan 2015 at 20:59.
Wasn't there a Cadet Drill Sergeant at Sandhurst who put it in a nutshell: "I call you Sir, and you call me Sir. The difference is: you will mean it !" - Danny
The dark blue convention is that there 69 different ways of saying "Sir", ranging from the Admiral saying to the Flag Captain, "Will you take the flagship to sea now, Sir" to the three badge (= 12 years undetected crime) Able Seaman saying "Aye, aye, Cur" to the Acting Sub Lieutenant (= Pilot Officer) who has just detailed him off for some highly undesirable duty....
Jack
The dark blue convention is that there 69 different ways of saying "Sir", ranging from the Admiral saying to the Flag Captain, "Will you take the flagship to sea now, Sir" to the three badge (= 12 years undetected crime) Able Seaman saying "Aye, aye, Cur" to the Acting Sub Lieutenant (= Pilot Officer) who has just detailed him off for some highly undesirable duty....
Jack
Guest
Posts: n/a
(Copied from another of my Posts on another Thread)
My eye was caught by this link:
(Extract D.Tel. 9.1.15).
"The pair have said that one of their proudest moments to date involved helping to foil a rocket (RPG ?) attack on their base at Kandahar airfield in 2010".
"There was a high threat and the base was expecting an imminent attack after some men were spotted in a nearby ditch, setting up to fire a rocket (RPG ?) at their accommodation block".
"They took the aircraft out to 15 miles from their position in the ditch and came down to low level, approaching at more than 500mph and as close to the Operational Low Flying minimum of 100 feet as possible, passing directly over them before heading into a steep climb".
"The rocket crew immediately scarpered in a truck and the pair felt they had made a tangible difference to protect their colleagues".
“The intention is to always use the minimum force required to provide the effect needed by the guys on the ground".
Am I missing something here ? This was in 2010, and there was a war going on in Afghanistan (as we have 453 good reasons to remember). This is the enemy, and he is making ready to kill you (or some of your comrades) if he can. You are airborne in one of the RAF's most powerful weapons. You have a 27mm cannon.
You buzz him off (as I used to shift a flock of goats off my strip before landing).
So that he can come back later and try again ?
I am a simple soul. Can someone please explain this to me (after all, my war was 70 years ago, and things change).
Danny.
Afterthought 1: I have my grandfather's India General Service Medal (with a clasp for Kandahar !) Nothing changes !
Afterthought 2: Radio a day or two ago reports that the Afghan Premier has appointed a Taliban General as Governer of the Helmand Province (If true, you couldn't invent it).
D.
My eye was caught by this link:
(Extract D.Tel. 9.1.15).
"The pair have said that one of their proudest moments to date involved helping to foil a rocket (RPG ?) attack on their base at Kandahar airfield in 2010".
"There was a high threat and the base was expecting an imminent attack after some men were spotted in a nearby ditch, setting up to fire a rocket (RPG ?) at their accommodation block".
"They took the aircraft out to 15 miles from their position in the ditch and came down to low level, approaching at more than 500mph and as close to the Operational Low Flying minimum of 100 feet as possible, passing directly over them before heading into a steep climb".
"The rocket crew immediately scarpered in a truck and the pair felt they had made a tangible difference to protect their colleagues".
“The intention is to always use the minimum force required to provide the effect needed by the guys on the ground".
Am I missing something here ? This was in 2010, and there was a war going on in Afghanistan (as we have 453 good reasons to remember). This is the enemy, and he is making ready to kill you (or some of your comrades) if he can. You are airborne in one of the RAF's most powerful weapons. You have a 27mm cannon.
You buzz him off (as I used to shift a flock of goats off my strip before landing).
So that he can come back later and try again ?
I am a simple soul. Can someone please explain this to me (after all, my war was 70 years ago, and things change).
Danny.
Afterthought 1: I have my grandfather's India General Service Medal (with a clasp for Kandahar !) Nothing changes !
Afterthought 2: Radio a day or two ago reports that the Afghan Premier has appointed a Taliban General as Governer of the Helmand Province (If true, you couldn't invent it).
D.
Guest
Posts: n/a
The Old Ways are always the Best.
Fareastdriver,
Many a true word spoken in jest ! But this was the natural consequence of the pernicious "Courageous Restraint" doctrine. (....“The intention is to always use the minimum force required to provide the effect needed by the guys on the ground"...)
Ref: <Britain's top general in Afghanistan admits 'courageous restraint ...
www.telegraph.co.uk/.../afghanistan/.../Britains-top-general-in-Afghanistan-admits-courageous-restraint-must-change.html>
This in turn stemmed from the notion of "half-fighting" a war which crept in some time after WW2, and was put into practice in the Falklands with the declaration of the 200-mile "Exclusion Zone". Intended to reduce the possibility of "collateral" attack on neutral shipping or aviation, it was later used to pillory as a "war crime" the sinking of the "Belgrano" by the "Conqueror". (Even at the time, her Captain, with the "Belgrano" in his sights and in torpedo range, still had to check with Northwood for permission to fire !) What would one of Nelson's Captains have done ? Union Jack ?
Churchill said "...in Victory, Magnanimity..." (but you have to win first !) What he would have said about this carry-on I shudder to think. Or as Shakespeare put it:
"Beware of entrance to a quarrel, but being in,
Bear it that the opposéd may beware of Thee".
Having said all that, as our pair were tramping along at 500 mph (about 250 yd/sec), they would have a max of about two seconds to acquire target, draw bead and fire. Much better off with a Hurricane IIC at 120 kts (four 20mms can make quite a mess of a pick-up truck and the "rocket", and send the operators to Paradise). Can't remember now, but think they had the same internal tankage as the Spit (85 Imp galls), with that and the Merlin running for max endurance, we could hang about for 4˝ hours. Much cheaper to run, too.
Cheers, Danny.
Many a true word spoken in jest ! But this was the natural consequence of the pernicious "Courageous Restraint" doctrine. (....“The intention is to always use the minimum force required to provide the effect needed by the guys on the ground"...)
Ref: <Britain's top general in Afghanistan admits 'courageous restraint ...
www.telegraph.co.uk/.../afghanistan/.../Britains-top-general-in-Afghanistan-admits-courageous-restraint-must-change.html>
This in turn stemmed from the notion of "half-fighting" a war which crept in some time after WW2, and was put into practice in the Falklands with the declaration of the 200-mile "Exclusion Zone". Intended to reduce the possibility of "collateral" attack on neutral shipping or aviation, it was later used to pillory as a "war crime" the sinking of the "Belgrano" by the "Conqueror". (Even at the time, her Captain, with the "Belgrano" in his sights and in torpedo range, still had to check with Northwood for permission to fire !) What would one of Nelson's Captains have done ? Union Jack ?
Churchill said "...in Victory, Magnanimity..." (but you have to win first !) What he would have said about this carry-on I shudder to think. Or as Shakespeare put it:
"Beware of entrance to a quarrel, but being in,
Bear it that the opposéd may beware of Thee".
Having said all that, as our pair were tramping along at 500 mph (about 250 yd/sec), they would have a max of about two seconds to acquire target, draw bead and fire. Much better off with a Hurricane IIC at 120 kts (four 20mms can make quite a mess of a pick-up truck and the "rocket", and send the operators to Paradise). Can't remember now, but think they had the same internal tankage as the Spit (85 Imp galls), with that and the Merlin running for max endurance, we could hang about for 4˝ hours. Much cheaper to run, too.
Cheers, Danny.
As the thread proceeds in its stately, and informative way, we should pause to acknowledge the birth date of Cliffnemo, and perhaps spend a second thinking about everything that goes before, and what he started all those posts ago. RIP Cliffnemo, and thank you for giving us all this crewroom of all crewrooms.
Smudge
Smudge
What would one of Nelson's Captains have done? - Danny
I'm flattered to be asked my opinion, especially when, as so thoughtfully highlighted by Smudge, we acknowledge the birth of Cliff, the founding father of this illustrious thread.
That said, and to give my view on what Nelson would have wanted from what he called his "Band of Brothers", I feel that I can do no better than to quote the words of the mid Victorian Prime Minister, Lord Palmerston, namely:
"If I want a thing done well in a distant part of the world; if I require a man with a good head, a good heart, lots of pluck and plenty of common-sense - I always send for a Captain in the Royal Navy".
What Nelson would have wanted, was what Palmerston wanted, and Baroness Thatcher would have wanted too, and that's exactly what she got in the form of Commander (later Captain) Chris Wreford-Brown DSO Royal Navy.
Jack
I'm flattered to be asked my opinion, especially when, as so thoughtfully highlighted by Smudge, we acknowledge the birth of Cliff, the founding father of this illustrious thread.
That said, and to give my view on what Nelson would have wanted from what he called his "Band of Brothers", I feel that I can do no better than to quote the words of the mid Victorian Prime Minister, Lord Palmerston, namely:
"If I want a thing done well in a distant part of the world; if I require a man with a good head, a good heart, lots of pluck and plenty of common-sense - I always send for a Captain in the Royal Navy".
What Nelson would have wanted, was what Palmerston wanted, and Baroness Thatcher would have wanted too, and that's exactly what she got in the form of Commander (later Captain) Chris Wreford-Brown DSO Royal Navy.
Jack
I am posting this on behalf of harrym as he apparantly has not the facilities to post pictures.
The result of a somewhat misjudged approach and landing at Kai Tak in the early 1950s, not as bad as it looks however as everybody got out with only an odd minor scratch or contusion. Never saw the official inquiry report, but wind could hardly have been blamed as there was virtually none – look at the smoke; in fact the airport fire service had pretty well extinguished the blaze, when the town brigade turned up and washed off all the foam by using water! Note the high ground behind the accident scene, which had to be crossed immediately prior to landing on RW13.
Incidentally, the half in-half out state of the tail wheel would suggest this took the initial impact
The result of a somewhat misjudged approach and landing at Kai Tak in the early 1950s, not as bad as it looks however as everybody got out with only an odd minor scratch or contusion. Never saw the official inquiry report, but wind could hardly have been blamed as there was virtually none – look at the smoke; in fact the airport fire service had pretty well extinguished the blaze, when the town brigade turned up and washed off all the foam by using water! Note the high ground behind the accident scene, which had to be crossed immediately prior to landing on RW13.
Incidentally, the half in-half out state of the tail wheel would suggest this took the initial impact
From my book about 53 Sqn:
Hastings TG564 was destroyed by fire in a landing accident at Kai Tak airport in Hong Kong at 0815 on 27 July (1953). Because of the surrounding terrain, the approach to the old runway at Kai Tak was particularly difficult and windshear was often present. The starboard undercarriage of the aircraft, flown by F/L S E Judd, struck a store hut some 200 yards short of the threshold. The aircraft came to rest just off the right side of the runway. It caught fire and was burnt out, partly assisted by the Kowloon Fire Brigade which used water on a fire that was being fuelled by petrol and oil! F/L Sid Judd was seriously injured.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Crew Cooperation ?
Found this interesting snippet on PPRuNe Forums: 
<LI class=g>News for fight between pilot and engineer chennai #
Air India flight from delayed by 3 hours after FIGHT breaks out in cockpit Daily Mail - 13 hours ago
An Air India flight from Chennai to Paris was delayed by three hours earlier ... a
fight broke out in the cockpit between the pilot and an engineer.
Note #: Madras to Old India Hands.
D.
<LI class=g>News for fight between pilot and engineer chennai #
Air India flight from delayed by 3 hours after FIGHT breaks out in cockpit Daily Mail - 13 hours ago
An Air India flight from Chennai to Paris was delayed by three hours earlier ... a
fight broke out in the cockpit between the pilot and an engineer.
Note #: Madras to Old India Hands.
D.
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Fairford, Glos
Age: 99
Posts: 155
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Cannanore & Kai Tak
Many thanks Danny for referring me to your #3036 re Cannanore, sounds like one of the better postings to be had in SE Asia!
Chugalug your experience with Jack H sounds truly alarming but no doubt he took the right decision, not helped at all by that truly dreadful piece of kit the GEC Radio Compass - not a patch on the old SCR269, but then that was American and their radio equipment was invariably superior to ours. So much so indeed that the York was fitted with the 269, presumably because at that time even the GEC bodge-up was not available.
This same GEC thing was fitted to the Hastings, and I recall trying to use it when flying radio range down the US west coast; quite hopeless, as it generated such a strong background tone of its own that it made the range's twilight zone appear of infinite extent - not a good thing in an area containing significant terrain!
Never heard of the word crachin although only too familiar with that nasty condition it describes, very prevalent especially during the March-April period - I remember it well.
Re Kai Tak, you refer to the new (i.e. post 1958) runway as being north-south, but surely it was on the same 31/13 bearing as the old one - pointing directly at the harbour's SE entrance?
Chugalug your experience with Jack H sounds truly alarming but no doubt he took the right decision, not helped at all by that truly dreadful piece of kit the GEC Radio Compass - not a patch on the old SCR269, but then that was American and their radio equipment was invariably superior to ours. So much so indeed that the York was fitted with the 269, presumably because at that time even the GEC bodge-up was not available.
This same GEC thing was fitted to the Hastings, and I recall trying to use it when flying radio range down the US west coast; quite hopeless, as it generated such a strong background tone of its own that it made the range's twilight zone appear of infinite extent - not a good thing in an area containing significant terrain!
Never heard of the word crachin although only too familiar with that nasty condition it describes, very prevalent especially during the March-April period - I remember it well.
Re Kai Tak, you refer to the new (i.e. post 1958) runway as being north-south, but surely it was on the same 31/13 bearing as the old one - pointing directly at the harbour's SE entrance?
harrym. No, the runway was new build, totally different. Here is a link to the original plans.
https://honghongheritage.files.wordp...tak008_jpg.jpg
https://honghongheritage.files.wordp...tak008_jpg.jpg