Gaining An R.A.F Pilots Brevet In WW II
Danny:-
...and with no small measure of justification Danny! One can only hope that the article truly portrayed your lynchpin role in this saga as the photograph clearly failed to, given that your image was conspicuous by its absence.
The price of fame is indeed high, for even if one is pictured it is important that it be of one's 'best side' in order that one's fans are spared possible disappointment. So much to think of, so much to bear in mind. Perhaps the most important lesson of all though, for those caught in the fleeting spotlight of celebrity, is to be nice to the people on the way up as you will meet them again on the way down!
Anyway, better late than never, have a Well Done!
I nursed a sense of grievance for quite some time. 
The price of fame is indeed high, for even if one is pictured it is important that it be of one's 'best side' in order that one's fans are spared possible disappointment. So much to think of, so much to bear in mind. Perhaps the most important lesson of all though, for those caught in the fleeting spotlight of celebrity, is to be nice to the people on the way up as you will meet them again on the way down!
Anyway, better late than never, have a Well Done!
The Hoodoo for the Voodoo?
Anyway, better late than never, have a Well Done!
Hear, hear, Danny - Yet another ripping yarn from the Master (as in TWMR.....) As we used to say, "Take a make and mend ** on Sunday, but only if you're not duty!
I've been absent from place of duty for a while so I'd like to support most strongly the view that you should not even contemplate drawing stumps when you clearly have a fund of other tales to tell, and which may well tempt others yet unknown to join in.
Salaams
Jack
** Jackspeak for "having the afternoon off"
Hear, hear, Danny - Yet another ripping yarn from the Master (as in TWMR.....) As we used to say, "Take a make and mend ** on Sunday, but only if you're not duty!
I've been absent from place of duty for a while so I'd like to support most strongly the view that you should not even contemplate drawing stumps when you clearly have a fund of other tales to tell, and which may well tempt others yet unknown to join in.
Salaams
Jack
** Jackspeak for "having the afternoon off"
Guest
Posts: n/a
Chugalug,
Your:
"......is to be nice to the people on the way up as you will meet them again on the way down!......" hardly applied to me, as I never went 'up', there was never any 'down' to come to ! (know what you mean, though).
In Orwell's "Animal Farm", isn't there a character who "never met an animal he didn't like" ? That has been my experience. When I started in the RAF, I was told: "You'll never get rich - but you'll meet an awful lot of nice people on the way". And so it has proved....D.
Union Jack,
There is really only one more Tale of Old Leeming to come (and it is rather a nice one) before I ring down the curtain, for I cannot make bricks without straw, and the straw's run out. Yet I hope I may be allowed to use my status as "One who Gained his RAF Pilot's Brevet in WWII" to tell of the final stages of my transition to Civviedom and to air some thoughts on general aspects of my Service "career", some questions about RAF history which have never yet been answered, and of course to put in any "flashbacks" of memory, as they come to mind which may amplify my earlier stories. In a word, you ain't heard the last of me yet !
Wasn't it also known as "Counting the deckhead rivets ?" (just joking)....D.
Cheers to you both, Danny.
Your:
"......is to be nice to the people on the way up as you will meet them again on the way down!......" hardly applied to me, as I never went 'up', there was never any 'down' to come to ! (know what you mean, though).
In Orwell's "Animal Farm", isn't there a character who "never met an animal he didn't like" ? That has been my experience. When I started in the RAF, I was told: "You'll never get rich - but you'll meet an awful lot of nice people on the way". And so it has proved....D.
Union Jack,
There is really only one more Tale of Old Leeming to come (and it is rather a nice one) before I ring down the curtain, for I cannot make bricks without straw, and the straw's run out. Yet I hope I may be allowed to use my status as "One who Gained his RAF Pilot's Brevet in WWII" to tell of the final stages of my transition to Civviedom and to air some thoughts on general aspects of my Service "career", some questions about RAF history which have never yet been answered, and of course to put in any "flashbacks" of memory, as they come to mind which may amplify my earlier stories. In a word, you ain't heard the last of me yet !
Wasn't it also known as "Counting the deckhead rivets ?" (just joking)....D.
Cheers to you both, Danny.
Wasn't it also known as "Counting the deckhead rivets ?" (just joking)....D.
Yes, indeed, and also "deckhead surveying - just not to be confused with the "golden rivet".....
Jack
Yes, indeed, and also "deckhead surveying - just not to be confused with the "golden rivet".....
Jack
As a young Halton Apprentice in the late 60s early 70s I was always warned never to drop my soap in the communal showers. In my innocence at a mere 16 years old, I understood that that was some sort of "professional" achievement to aspire to. Oh how my eyes have been opened by subsequent years in the service. But I never dropped that bloody soap
meanwhile, back at the ranch, as an ex "tecky" if you can offer your experience Danny, what sort of relationship was there between aircrew and groundcrew during WW2? And of course subsequently. I, as a late 60s recruit saw one version, your thoughts would be interesting on that relationship, if there was one. My departed father in law experienced life as Groundcrew on 617 and 75(NZ) Squadrons during WW2, and, toward the end of his time, often alluded to the comradeship of wartime service as his "best of times". I will never forget him telling me of being ordered, with several fellow "Erks" in to the bomb bay of a 75 Sqn Stirling for an air test following an engine change. Having closed the bomb doors, locks were fitted to prevent accidental opening of the doors in flight. I'm sure you have memories of some of your own Erks in "the East".
Smudge
meanwhile, back at the ranch, as an ex "tecky" if you can offer your experience Danny, what sort of relationship was there between aircrew and groundcrew during WW2? And of course subsequently. I, as a late 60s recruit saw one version, your thoughts would be interesting on that relationship, if there was one. My departed father in law experienced life as Groundcrew on 617 and 75(NZ) Squadrons during WW2, and, toward the end of his time, often alluded to the comradeship of wartime service as his "best of times". I will never forget him telling me of being ordered, with several fellow "Erks" in to the bomb bay of a 75 Sqn Stirling for an air test following an engine change. Having closed the bomb doors, locks were fitted to prevent accidental opening of the doors in flight. I'm sure you have memories of some of your own Erks in "the East".Smudge
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Cheshire Ct USA
Age: 98
Posts: 63
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Gaining an RAF pilots brevet in WW2
I wonder under what circumstances an aircrew brevet once awarded could be, or was, "cancelled"?
My recollection is that reduction in rank could happen for a variety of reasons but the brevet???
Incidentally I know of a guy,who, sans brevet, was put in control of a Shackleton while the crew rested.He was on detachment from his SFTS at the time.He later got his brevet and became a Shackleton captain.
D
My recollection is that reduction in rank could happen for a variety of reasons but the brevet???
Incidentally I know of a guy,who, sans brevet, was put in control of a Shackleton while the crew rested.He was on detachment from his SFTS at the time.He later got his brevet and became a Shackleton captain.
D
The flying brevet, when awarded, was provisional for six months. We had a pilot come out to the Far East straight out of the OCU. His record of flying training were full of reviews and minimum passes. We ignored those, and all but a few on the squadron was unaware of the facts. We thought that with a complete change in surroundings and people that he could make a go of it.
HE WAS ABSOLUTELY RUDDY USELESS.
He couldn't assimilate anything about the technical and climatic aspects of flying in the Far East as well as anything about the task in hand. We persevered, as best we could, but came the day when he had to do his official categorisation. It was a disaster and so bad that even failing it wasn't considered.
He was an immediate E cat and after a review he ended up in the Education Branch minus his wings.
Not his fault, he should never have been there in the first place, and he admitted it.
HE WAS ABSOLUTELY RUDDY USELESS.
He couldn't assimilate anything about the technical and climatic aspects of flying in the Far East as well as anything about the task in hand. We persevered, as best we could, but came the day when he had to do his official categorisation. It was a disaster and so bad that even failing it wasn't considered.
He was an immediate E cat and after a review he ended up in the Education Branch minus his wings.
Not his fault, he should never have been there in the first place, and he admitted it.
DFCP,
During WW2, aircrew who had been found guilty of LMF were subjected to the indignity of having their brevet removed as well as being reduced to the ranks if an NCO or cashiered if commissioned.
There should have been some more humane system of dealing with aircrew who had had enough and felt that they could not go on.
During WW2, aircrew who had been found guilty of LMF were subjected to the indignity of having their brevet removed as well as being reduced to the ranks if an NCO or cashiered if commissioned.
There should have been some more humane system of dealing with aircrew who had had enough and felt that they could not go on.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Smudge (your #6165, I quote),
Your:
"......meanwhile, back at the ranch, as an ex "tecky" if you can offer your experience Danny, what sort of relationship was there between aircrew and groundcrew during WW2? And of course subsequently. I, as a late 60s recruit saw one version, your thoughts would be interesting on that relationship, if there was one. My departed father in law experienced life
as Groundcrew on 617 and 75(NZ) Squadrons during WW2, and, toward the end of his time, often alluded to the comradeship of wartime service as his "best of times". I will never forget him telling me of being ordered, with several fellow "Erks" in to the bomb bay of a 75 Sqn Stirling for an air test following an engine change. Having closed the bomb doors, locks were fitted to prevent accidental opening of the doors in flight. I'm sure you have memories of some of your own Erks in "the East".
I'll try and answer point by point. It was excellent ! We all knew that our lives depended on their doing their jobs well; they slogged their guts out for us - often working through the night (without complaint - apart from the constant grumble which is an inseparable part of Service life - to get their "kite" on the line next morning. Then they would reluctantly "lend" "their" aircraft to the pilot for an "op" (and I'll always remember the broad grins when you brought it back into dispersal and signalled "thumbs up" to the questioning faces.
Of course, discipline still ruled, an officer was still an officer and an erk still an erk, but that said (and in particular in Burma) they worked doggedly in heat, humidity and pouring rain, with little shelter (no nice, warm, dry hangars now !) to (say) change an engine overnight. You dropped a spanner, it fell in two inches of glutinous mud. You dropped a nut - goodbye !
What made it easier was the fact that we all slept on the same charpoys, ate the same food in the various Messes, showered under the same perforated four-gallon tins and all ranks shared the same hardships (which the squaddies of the 14th Army would regard as absolute luxuries !). I cannot recall any Parades (except for Pay) in the whole of my time out there.
Things might have been different back home. You say your Dad was on 617, was it in Gibson's time ? I've read that he tended to treat his lower ranks "de haut en bas", as it were, which never goes down very well (but then a very brave man is not necessarily a "nice" one). But that is hearsay. And I would go along 100% with his remarks about the comradeship as his "best of times". Of course, that was one man's war: for others it was much different. (..."It was the Best of Times....It was the Worst of Times"...).
Bit puzzled about "locked" Bomb Doors. Were there other locks apart from the usual ones in the cockpit ? If so, could the pilot release them from there ? (no sense in flying hundreds of miles to your target and then being unable to open bomb doors). But I never had anything to do with the Stirling, it looked an ungainly thing and might well have funny things in it. (There are people reading this who know the answer).
Bit long-winded, but never mind ! Cheers, Danny.
Your:
"......meanwhile, back at the ranch, as an ex "tecky" if you can offer your experience Danny, what sort of relationship was there between aircrew and groundcrew during WW2? And of course subsequently. I, as a late 60s recruit saw one version, your thoughts would be interesting on that relationship, if there was one. My departed father in law experienced life
as Groundcrew on 617 and 75(NZ) Squadrons during WW2, and, toward the end of his time, often alluded to the comradeship of wartime service as his "best of times". I will never forget him telling me of being ordered, with several fellow "Erks" in to the bomb bay of a 75 Sqn Stirling for an air test following an engine change. Having closed the bomb doors, locks were fitted to prevent accidental opening of the doors in flight. I'm sure you have memories of some of your own Erks in "the East".
I'll try and answer point by point. It was excellent ! We all knew that our lives depended on their doing their jobs well; they slogged their guts out for us - often working through the night (without complaint - apart from the constant grumble which is an inseparable part of Service life - to get their "kite" on the line next morning. Then they would reluctantly "lend" "their" aircraft to the pilot for an "op" (and I'll always remember the broad grins when you brought it back into dispersal and signalled "thumbs up" to the questioning faces.
Of course, discipline still ruled, an officer was still an officer and an erk still an erk, but that said (and in particular in Burma) they worked doggedly in heat, humidity and pouring rain, with little shelter (no nice, warm, dry hangars now !) to (say) change an engine overnight. You dropped a spanner, it fell in two inches of glutinous mud. You dropped a nut - goodbye !
What made it easier was the fact that we all slept on the same charpoys, ate the same food in the various Messes, showered under the same perforated four-gallon tins and all ranks shared the same hardships (which the squaddies of the 14th Army would regard as absolute luxuries !). I cannot recall any Parades (except for Pay) in the whole of my time out there.
Things might have been different back home. You say your Dad was on 617, was it in Gibson's time ? I've read that he tended to treat his lower ranks "de haut en bas", as it were, which never goes down very well (but then a very brave man is not necessarily a "nice" one). But that is hearsay. And I would go along 100% with his remarks about the comradeship as his "best of times". Of course, that was one man's war: for others it was much different. (..."It was the Best of Times....It was the Worst of Times"...).
Bit puzzled about "locked" Bomb Doors. Were there other locks apart from the usual ones in the cockpit ? If so, could the pilot release them from there ? (no sense in flying hundreds of miles to your target and then being unable to open bomb doors). But I never had anything to do with the Stirling, it looked an ungainly thing and might well have funny things in it. (There are people reading this who know the answer).
Bit long-winded, but never mind ! Cheers, Danny.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Danny moves nearer to his Bowler Hat.
We left Danny some time ago quietly satisfied with the outcome of his C&E interview in Leeds and awaiting a result. Now I am hazy about dates, but it must have been about two months later, in the summer of '72, that the first letter came. I was offered an appointment in London Port Inner (!), to start Monday week (!!).
This, of course, was quite out of the question. The notice was far too short (I had to give the RAF a clear calendar month's notice). And why London Port Inner ? I wasn't joining the "Waterguard", for Pete's sake !; the Interview had made it quite clear that we were recruited to carry the extra load the coming VAT would entail. (I suppose that there might have been a "Local VAT Office" to be set up inside London Port, but I doubt it).
But that was immaterial in any case. For I wrote back politely, thanking them for their offer, but gently making it clear that wild horses wouldn't drag me down anywhere near London. So that's the end of that, I thought.
Not so. A couple of weeks later they tried again. The writer hadn't looked at the file - this time it was London again, but in some more pleasant location in the West End. Again I replied courteously, thanking them again, but adding: "Dismiss from your minds any idea that I'm going anywhere near London".
That must be the last I'd hear from them - I was sure of that. Again I was wrong. A few weeks after they came back with Manchester (take it or leave it, that's our final offer !). I took it. It was no use sitting in Thirsk, saying "Bring the job to me". You have to go to it, if you want it. One good thing: they were remarkably relaxed about joining dates (Iimagine the huge Manchester LVO (Old Trafford) was only slowly building up its staff). I arranged to start there on 3rd March,'73. This would give us plenty of time to "get all our ducks in line".
Of course we would be heartbroken to leave our Thirsk house where we'd been so happy for more than four years - but that's life. And there were more immediate problems. For a start, our old Peugeot (13 years old with 150,000 on the clock - and the head had never been off !) was at the end of the road.
I would need a reliable (new) car for my new job. My lump sum would easily
cover the cost. So what would it be ? Of course, I looked first at Peugeot.
The replacement would be a 504. But the "Coupleur Jaeger" was no longer an option (although I think you could have it on the now superseded 404). I was sold on clutchless driving, so now it would have to be full automatic. They came in at £2,000. This was more than I intended to pay. I lowered my sights, the next choice was a Renault 16 TL auto at £1,500. I closed the deal, Leeming Bar Garages faithfully promised delivery before Christmas. Of course it didn't happen !
Now the ball started to roll, for the decision had been made. I put in my request for a PVR in October and negotiated a date of 31st December'72. Everything went very smoothly. PMC offered me a dining-out, but I declined. My time in the RAF was finished, it had been a good time, but now it was all over.
I'd always resolved to leave with the same ceremony as had attended my entry 31 years before (ie Nil), and now it would be so. I put my uniforms and greatcoat up for sale (but kept the raincoat), they went pretty fast as I'd always been a "stock size", keeping only my cap and gloves as a keepsake and gloves. When the end came, the only Crown properties to stick with me were: one Can, Garden, Watering; one Hoe, Garden (long gone) and one Spectacles Anti-Glare Mk VII (I still use them). And that was all. There would be plenty of time for all my farewells (and there are some Posts to come yet).
The RAF had dealt with me quite generously. My pension, leaving at age 51 after 23 years on my current Commission (for War service is not taken into account) would be 42% of my Military Salary. I've been drawing it now for 42 years (and hope for a few more years yet !) I can't complain.
So, once again I say "Goodnight, everybody".
Danny42C.
Nearly there now !
This, of course, was quite out of the question. The notice was far too short (I had to give the RAF a clear calendar month's notice). And why London Port Inner ? I wasn't joining the "Waterguard", for Pete's sake !; the Interview had made it quite clear that we were recruited to carry the extra load the coming VAT would entail. (I suppose that there might have been a "Local VAT Office" to be set up inside London Port, but I doubt it).
But that was immaterial in any case. For I wrote back politely, thanking them for their offer, but gently making it clear that wild horses wouldn't drag me down anywhere near London. So that's the end of that, I thought.
Not so. A couple of weeks later they tried again. The writer hadn't looked at the file - this time it was London again, but in some more pleasant location in the West End. Again I replied courteously, thanking them again, but adding: "Dismiss from your minds any idea that I'm going anywhere near London".
That must be the last I'd hear from them - I was sure of that. Again I was wrong. A few weeks after they came back with Manchester (take it or leave it, that's our final offer !). I took it. It was no use sitting in Thirsk, saying "Bring the job to me". You have to go to it, if you want it. One good thing: they were remarkably relaxed about joining dates (Iimagine the huge Manchester LVO (Old Trafford) was only slowly building up its staff). I arranged to start there on 3rd March,'73. This would give us plenty of time to "get all our ducks in line".
Of course we would be heartbroken to leave our Thirsk house where we'd been so happy for more than four years - but that's life. And there were more immediate problems. For a start, our old Peugeot (13 years old with 150,000 on the clock - and the head had never been off !) was at the end of the road.
I would need a reliable (new) car for my new job. My lump sum would easily
cover the cost. So what would it be ? Of course, I looked first at Peugeot.
The replacement would be a 504. But the "Coupleur Jaeger" was no longer an option (although I think you could have it on the now superseded 404). I was sold on clutchless driving, so now it would have to be full automatic. They came in at £2,000. This was more than I intended to pay. I lowered my sights, the next choice was a Renault 16 TL auto at £1,500. I closed the deal, Leeming Bar Garages faithfully promised delivery before Christmas. Of course it didn't happen !
Now the ball started to roll, for the decision had been made. I put in my request for a PVR in October and negotiated a date of 31st December'72. Everything went very smoothly. PMC offered me a dining-out, but I declined. My time in the RAF was finished, it had been a good time, but now it was all over.
I'd always resolved to leave with the same ceremony as had attended my entry 31 years before (ie Nil), and now it would be so. I put my uniforms and greatcoat up for sale (but kept the raincoat), they went pretty fast as I'd always been a "stock size", keeping only my cap and gloves as a keepsake and gloves. When the end came, the only Crown properties to stick with me were: one Can, Garden, Watering; one Hoe, Garden (long gone) and one Spectacles Anti-Glare Mk VII (I still use them). And that was all. There would be plenty of time for all my farewells (and there are some Posts to come yet).
The RAF had dealt with me quite generously. My pension, leaving at age 51 after 23 years on my current Commission (for War service is not taken into account) would be 42% of my Military Salary. I've been drawing it now for 42 years (and hope for a few more years yet !) I can't complain.
So, once again I say "Goodnight, everybody".
Danny42C.
Nearly there now !
Danny, the locked Bomb doors. I remember when discussing it with him, many years ago that the Bomb doors on the Lancaster could be padlocked from the outside. The impression that I got was that it was done to prevent the crew inadvertently opening the bomb doors, with the "air experience " personnel in the Bomb bay. I wonder if a padlock would be sufficient? His time on 617 was after Gibson and the dams, I believe they were at Woodhall Spa at the time. He spent most of his service on 75 (NZ) Squadron at Mepal, Cambridgeshire. I had the luck to be the SNCO i/c the team that renovated the wings of PA474 many years ago, and took great delight in having him come to stay with us and having a good look around the beast, I was very pleased that he enjoyed it. I certainly always understood that he enjoyed his time in the RAF, making many friends who he maintained contact with through his life. It's good that you can confirm that the camaraderie was pretty well the same across the service, as you say, you were all in the same boat. Thanks for your post.
Smudge
Smudge
The Vickers Valiant was an all electric aircraft. Undercarriage, flaps, airbrakes(?) and bomb doors. Even the flying controls were operated by electro-hydraulic units descended from the Frazer Nash gun turret. No problem with locking the bomb doors as one crew found out after a few days on the wazz in the USA on a Lone Ranger.
The battery had gone flat.
You couldn't charge the battery until the battery contactor was made which required battery power and they were in the bomb bay and you couldn't open the bomb bay until you had electrical power.
Eventually after a lot of crawling around underneath the AEO's position the AEO manage to connect a set of borrowed jump leads from a fire truck to the contactor's terminals. This enable the external power to connect to the aircraft and then they could open the doors.
The reason the battery had gone flat was the old chestnut common to cars. They had left the bomb bay lights on when they closed them up for the night.
The battery had gone flat.
You couldn't charge the battery until the battery contactor was made which required battery power and they were in the bomb bay and you couldn't open the bomb bay until you had electrical power.
Eventually after a lot of crawling around underneath the AEO's position the AEO manage to connect a set of borrowed jump leads from a fire truck to the contactor's terminals. This enable the external power to connect to the aircraft and then they could open the doors.
The reason the battery had gone flat was the old chestnut common to cars. They had left the bomb bay lights on when they closed them up for the night.
Last edited by Fareastdriver; 19th Sep 2014 at 19:43.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Locking the pax in ?
Smudge,
Your:
"the Bomb doors on the Lancaster could be padlocked from the outside. The impression that I got was that it was done to prevent the crew inadvertently opening the bomb doors, with the "air experience" personnel in the Bomb bay"
fills me with horror !
It can't be true that they put the poor devils inside, in total darkness, then padlocked them in (what happened when they lost the key ?), and took to the air ? If that was Air Experience, I'd reckon it would put them off for life ! (Yet, now I come to think of it, didn't the diplomatic courier Mossie to Sweden carry passengers to Sweden - and escapees back to UK - in the bays ? I believe they chucked in a pillow and a blanket or two for them.
Cheers, Danny.
Your:
"the Bomb doors on the Lancaster could be padlocked from the outside. The impression that I got was that it was done to prevent the crew inadvertently opening the bomb doors, with the "air experience" personnel in the Bomb bay"
fills me with horror !
It can't be true that they put the poor devils inside, in total darkness, then padlocked them in (what happened when they lost the key ?), and took to the air ? If that was Air Experience, I'd reckon it would put them off for life ! (Yet, now I come to think of it, didn't the diplomatic courier Mossie to Sweden carry passengers to Sweden - and escapees back to UK - in the bays ? I believe they chucked in a pillow and a blanket or two for them.
Cheers, Danny.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Flat Batteries.
Fareastdriver,
My variation - boot light stays on after boot closed, result misery ("Micawber") - flatty batty, of course ! Why did they ever do away with the dear old starting handle ? (Always check bulb the moment you open boot - it shouldn't be hot).
Your bomb-door arrangement sounds a real masterpiece of design (how did we ever win the war ?) Left you with a real Catch-22, and no mistake !
Regards, Danny,
My variation - boot light stays on after boot closed, result misery ("Micawber") - flatty batty, of course ! Why did they ever do away with the dear old starting handle ? (Always check bulb the moment you open boot - it shouldn't be hot).
Your bomb-door arrangement sounds a real masterpiece of design (how did we ever win the war ?) Left you with a real Catch-22, and no mistake !
Regards, Danny,
Guest
Posts: n/a
Give Danny a hand !
To all (if any !) my wellwishers,
As my PM input box is banging against the stops, and I am loth to have to cull my valued PMs on file already, can I please suggest that you use, if it's not inconvenient, the email-to-PPRuNe-relay-email-to-me system (works quite well and is just as secure), in lieu ?
Thanks in anticipation, chaps. Danny42C.
As my PM input box is banging against the stops, and I am loth to have to cull my valued PMs on file already, can I please suggest that you use, if it's not inconvenient, the email-to-PPRuNe-relay-email-to-me system (works quite well and is just as secure), in lieu ?
Thanks in anticipation, chaps. Danny42C.
Danny,
"It can't be true that they put the poor devils inside, in total darkness, then padlocked them in (what happened when they lost the key ?". I rather suspect that if it was done, it was done for the safety of those in the Bomb bay. It did strike me, years later, that loading ground personnel in the Bomb bay at all seemed "peculiar". The Lancaster had plenty of room for a couple of ground crew bods to enjoy the pre op air test, within the fuselage. However, I can only recount what I was told, and have no way of clarifying what he told me. Perhaps my father in law was a bit of a "wind up merchant", he certainly hooked me if that was the case.
Smudge (as mystified as you)
"It can't be true that they put the poor devils inside, in total darkness, then padlocked them in (what happened when they lost the key ?". I rather suspect that if it was done, it was done for the safety of those in the Bomb bay. It did strike me, years later, that loading ground personnel in the Bomb bay at all seemed "peculiar". The Lancaster had plenty of room for a couple of ground crew bods to enjoy the pre op air test, within the fuselage. However, I can only recount what I was told, and have no way of clarifying what he told me. Perhaps my father in law was a bit of a "wind up merchant", he certainly hooked me if that was the case.
Smudge
(as mystified as you)
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: 23, Railway Cuttings, East Cheam
Age: 68
Posts: 3,115
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I rarely post on this thread but have read every single word on it. Danny, at 92 you deserve a rest; it has been an absolute pleasure reading your posts, I wish you well and good health. It has been a privilege and an honour to have you here although I'm sure you would be the first to play that down. God bless you sir.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Baron Munchausen Lives !
Smudge, There is one thing (I don't know the Lanc). Is there some access from the inner crew space into the bomb bay ? (IIRC, in the B-24 Liberator there was a walkway through the bomb bay from fore to aft compartments - but I then I don't know the Lib. either).
As for the danger of a pilot accidentally opening the bomb doors and jettisoning the pax: in the first place no pilot has any need to even think of opening the doors in flight unless "with malice aforethought" (ie he has bombs on the racks which he intends to drop on someone).
And in the second it would have to be a pilot of unprecedented stupidity to do this (except in the case of losing one or more engines), when the thing cannot maintain height, you must "lighten ship" in every way possible. Pity about the pax in the bay (I take it they have no 'chutes), but if you don't shed them you'll all die anyway !
I've told the story of the old style ("Dragon Rapide") Dominie, one failed, the pax were a parachute display team, they readily agreed to "step outside" and he got it down on one. (True).
"It was done for the safety of those in the bomb bay" ! Your late father-in-law was pulling your...leg ! (MINE, TOO).
Danny.
PS: OF COURSE THAT'S IT ! - WHY HAVE WE BEEN WASTING ALL THIS TIME ON IT ? - IT'S JUST ANOTHER "GOLDEN RIVET" OR "SHIP'S WHE...EEEELS !"
(Union Jack can explain, I'm sure). D.
As for the danger of a pilot accidentally opening the bomb doors and jettisoning the pax: in the first place no pilot has any need to even think of opening the doors in flight unless "with malice aforethought" (ie he has bombs on the racks which he intends to drop on someone).
And in the second it would have to be a pilot of unprecedented stupidity to do this (except in the case of losing one or more engines), when the thing cannot maintain height, you must "lighten ship" in every way possible. Pity about the pax in the bay (I take it they have no 'chutes), but if you don't shed them you'll all die anyway !
I've told the story of the old style ("Dragon Rapide") Dominie, one failed, the pax were a parachute display team, they readily agreed to "step outside" and he got it down on one. (True).
"It was done for the safety of those in the bomb bay" ! Your late father-in-law was pulling your...leg ! (MINE, TOO).
Danny.
PS: OF COURSE THAT'S IT ! - WHY HAVE WE BEEN WASTING ALL THIS TIME ON IT ? - IT'S JUST ANOTHER "GOLDEN RIVET" OR "SHIP'S WHE...EEEELS !"
(Union Jack can explain, I'm sure). D.