Gaining An R.A.F Pilots Brevet In WW II
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Often in Jersey, but mainly in the past.
Age: 79
Posts: 7,810
Received 135 Likes
on
63 Posts
Originally Posted by Dave Wilson
Take the spring out and fill it with ball bearings? Seem to remember that being do
Certainly never did that. How could you afford ball bearings on 2 groats a day?
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: South of Old Warden
Age: 87
Posts: 1,375
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
when you hit it during the Present
Could have been disastrous but I don't recall any embarrassing moments
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Often in Jersey, but mainly in the past.
Age: 79
Posts: 7,810
Received 135 Likes
on
63 Posts
Thanks, goudie ... I thought I still had a functioning brain cell when it comes to drill!! 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Hove
Age: 72
Posts: 1,026
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Used to do the same when in the cadets. Most mags would hold in place if you just kept it against the catch point.
That reminds me, how many times did someone try to catch you out with a blank round in the breech hoping you would not check the weapon and pull the trigger.
On one squadron I was with a WO used to do that and finally it happened, idiot cadet pulls trigger and "BANG". Right in the middle of a visit by the local mayor. Just as well it was in the 60's and not in the 10's.
That reminds me, how many times did someone try to catch you out with a blank round in the breech hoping you would not check the weapon and pull the trigger.
On one squadron I was with a WO used to do that and finally it happened, idiot cadet pulls trigger and "BANG". Right in the middle of a visit by the local mayor. Just as well it was in the 60's and not in the 10's.
.........
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: very west
Age: 65
Posts: 262
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Basic training over, next step.
Glad to say, I managed to avoid Guards of Honour for most of my career. Just as well. Sounds too bloody dangerous to me.
Ancientaviator62,
I once got a "permission to not shave for a week" for myself and the two prop forwards, but never had the chit. Never got pulled up for stubble though.
Dave Wilson,
I can only remember visiting Newton once during its tenure as Plod HQ. We (Squadron, All Ranks) weren't allowed to continue our onward journey until 'reviewed' by a Flt Lt in SD cap, greatcoat and slippers! but more of that later.
Next step forward.
Camlobe is no longer a raw recruit, but he is is still just AC camlobe. After a short period of leave which the kind people at RAF HQ decided we were due, it was back on the train. Next stop Buckinghamshire. Number 1 School of Trade Training, RAF Halton. I am amongst brethren this time as all trainees are travelling in Number One's. Once again, when we detrain, there are a selection of DI's there to make us feel welcome. But we have been here before, and it is taken in our stride. Bedford Bus, our familiar method of transport, eases us of toward our new home. All goes well until we turn up the hill through the camp gate. In Lincolnshire, there was no issue, but here, thar be hills. The bus all but dies getting us up to the Parade Square. We are 'politely' invited to debus, and a roll call is taken. Many of our number are marched back onto the bus and head off to the "other side". These are the Trenchard's Brats, or RAF Aircraft Trade Apprenticies, and they will be spending the next three years at Halton learning about the 'heavy' side (Airframes and Engines). Those apprentices going for the 'light' side (avionics - Air Radio and Air Radar) are going through an identical process at RAF Cosford, and will be forever known as Fairies. Most of these young lads are 16 years old, and have come straight from school and Basic Training.
Those of us left standing are now sorted into groups by trade. At Halton, it was Engines, Airframes and Weapons. Electricians and Navigational Instruments were trained at Cosford.
From the Parade Square, we are marched off to the three-storey blocks and introduced to our 18 man rooms, home for the next six months. A few of my room mates from Swinderby are still my room mates. We start unpacking, and then a couple of us stop and have a meeting. Two of us are 19, and three are 18. The other thirteen are 16. Now, that might not sound like much of a difference, but to an 18 or 19 year old, it is a huge age gap. The five of us aren't ageist, but we have signed on the dotted line as Adult Entry Technicians. The minimum criteria for this method of entry was; must be 18 years of age or older; must have previous technical experience. We ask our fellow room mates what they have signed up for. They are all on a Direct Entry Technician scheme, straight from school. We five decide we better have this sorted as we are obviously in the wrong room.
The Discip Sergeant is surprisingly welcoming and approachable, and listens intently to our quandary. He immediately gets on to the blower and it seems as if he is ringing around the whole of Training Command in order to sort out our issue. After a considerable length of time, he tells us to sit down while he updates us on our future. We are no longer Adult Entry Technicians, as the RAF did away with this scheme a couple of months ago. If we wish to continue our technical training to the same end result i.e. complete technical training successfully and gain promotion to Junior Technician, then we must join the 16 year olds on the Direct Entry format. The only real difference other than the age difference is, training is no longer six months, but nine. Or we can remuster.
We are stunned. The RAF offered us a path, we agreed and signed up, and then, without telling us beforehand, they removed the goalposts. For the five of us, this was the hardest part to accept. The extra three months at AC wages we could tolerate. Stuck with a bunch of very young guys for a long time was going to be difficult. But the lack of decency is what hurt hardest.
The Sergeant very wisely and kindly advises us to go away, have a cuppa and chew it over, and let him know what we wish to do. We find the NAAFI and sit down. After having a good team winge, we all agree that we are here now, let's keep going. The RAF might not care about us, but we sure cared about the RAF. We decided we would make it through this, and we would not leave anyone of us behind. We must have had a determined look on our faces because the Sergeant took a step backwards when we returned. When we told him of OUR decision, he genuinely looked pleased. Maybe it was wind.
Camlobe
You play ball with the RAF, and they will still shove the bat up your a%$e.
Ancientaviator62,
I once got a "permission to not shave for a week" for myself and the two prop forwards, but never had the chit. Never got pulled up for stubble though.
Dave Wilson,
I can only remember visiting Newton once during its tenure as Plod HQ. We (Squadron, All Ranks) weren't allowed to continue our onward journey until 'reviewed' by a Flt Lt in SD cap, greatcoat and slippers! but more of that later.
Next step forward.
Camlobe is no longer a raw recruit, but he is is still just AC camlobe. After a short period of leave which the kind people at RAF HQ decided we were due, it was back on the train. Next stop Buckinghamshire. Number 1 School of Trade Training, RAF Halton. I am amongst brethren this time as all trainees are travelling in Number One's. Once again, when we detrain, there are a selection of DI's there to make us feel welcome. But we have been here before, and it is taken in our stride. Bedford Bus, our familiar method of transport, eases us of toward our new home. All goes well until we turn up the hill through the camp gate. In Lincolnshire, there was no issue, but here, thar be hills. The bus all but dies getting us up to the Parade Square. We are 'politely' invited to debus, and a roll call is taken. Many of our number are marched back onto the bus and head off to the "other side". These are the Trenchard's Brats, or RAF Aircraft Trade Apprenticies, and they will be spending the next three years at Halton learning about the 'heavy' side (Airframes and Engines). Those apprentices going for the 'light' side (avionics - Air Radio and Air Radar) are going through an identical process at RAF Cosford, and will be forever known as Fairies. Most of these young lads are 16 years old, and have come straight from school and Basic Training.
Those of us left standing are now sorted into groups by trade. At Halton, it was Engines, Airframes and Weapons. Electricians and Navigational Instruments were trained at Cosford.
From the Parade Square, we are marched off to the three-storey blocks and introduced to our 18 man rooms, home for the next six months. A few of my room mates from Swinderby are still my room mates. We start unpacking, and then a couple of us stop and have a meeting. Two of us are 19, and three are 18. The other thirteen are 16. Now, that might not sound like much of a difference, but to an 18 or 19 year old, it is a huge age gap. The five of us aren't ageist, but we have signed on the dotted line as Adult Entry Technicians. The minimum criteria for this method of entry was; must be 18 years of age or older; must have previous technical experience. We ask our fellow room mates what they have signed up for. They are all on a Direct Entry Technician scheme, straight from school. We five decide we better have this sorted as we are obviously in the wrong room.
The Discip Sergeant is surprisingly welcoming and approachable, and listens intently to our quandary. He immediately gets on to the blower and it seems as if he is ringing around the whole of Training Command in order to sort out our issue. After a considerable length of time, he tells us to sit down while he updates us on our future. We are no longer Adult Entry Technicians, as the RAF did away with this scheme a couple of months ago. If we wish to continue our technical training to the same end result i.e. complete technical training successfully and gain promotion to Junior Technician, then we must join the 16 year olds on the Direct Entry format. The only real difference other than the age difference is, training is no longer six months, but nine. Or we can remuster.
We are stunned. The RAF offered us a path, we agreed and signed up, and then, without telling us beforehand, they removed the goalposts. For the five of us, this was the hardest part to accept. The extra three months at AC wages we could tolerate. Stuck with a bunch of very young guys for a long time was going to be difficult. But the lack of decency is what hurt hardest.
The Sergeant very wisely and kindly advises us to go away, have a cuppa and chew it over, and let him know what we wish to do. We find the NAAFI and sit down. After having a good team winge, we all agree that we are here now, let's keep going. The RAF might not care about us, but we sure cared about the RAF. We decided we would make it through this, and we would not leave anyone of us behind. We must have had a determined look on our faces because the Sergeant took a step backwards when we returned. When we told him of OUR decision, he genuinely looked pleased. Maybe it was wind.
Camlobe
You play ball with the RAF, and they will still shove the bat up your a%$e.
Guest
Posts: n/a
......and talk of Many Things.....
To All it May Concern Below:
I seem to have started so many hares running at the same time, that the only way to get ahead of the pack is to lift a phrase or two from your Posts singly, and then put in a word or two in italic:
#4742 MPN11,
What we actually need is Danny to stop sitting on his bum at Gut, and get himself to Shawbury to be an ATC teeecher.....
Danny was sitting at Geilenkirchen , not Gütersloh, and will be for the next two years, then two more at Linton-on-Ouse, before he was let loose on the eager young Seekers after Knowledge 'twixt Grins Hill and the Wrekin ! Be patient and all will be revealed...D
#4753 Dave Wilson,
Danny next time I'm up there I'll have a look for your house and see if I can take a few shots........
Thanks, but found it last year on Google Street Search. It's right down the end of Bubwith Lane, recognisable as a red brick post-war (S/Ldrs) OMQ, trees around much grown up; it was the only MQ built there (for the C.O., I believe). Everyone else had to shift for themselves ! (I was at Linton, got the place as no one else wanted it - too far out in the sticks)
.
#4760 Danny, just caught your comment re the water at Breighton, there had been heavy rain the week before and the Derwent had burst it's banks, hence all of the large puddles!...
Ah, so ! Even so, I can't 'fix' myself anywhere - sorry......D.
#4754 Beagle,
BREIGHTON Danny, you might be interested in this site: Breighton which contains many photos of Breighton. This thread, The Real Aeroplane Company - Breighton Aerodrome also includes wartime photos of Breighton as well as the Thor IRBMs and Bloodhound Mk1 SAMs of later years.........
Thanks, very interesting - the second site was the more informative, and there were tantalising spots on the shots that "might have been". Searched the first (overhead) picture, down at the SW edge saw something possible, but under magnification - no)
The Piper Tri-Pacer, in its 'Caribbean' version, was the first aircraft in which I flew at the age of 11. It's a delightful light aeroplane and benefits from being a 'non-EASA' aeroplane, so is outside the €urocratic nonsense of EASA........
What was EASA, please ? Thanks again, (camlobe answers the question of the control coupling below) ....D.
#4758 Chugalug,
The one thing that should remain unchanged, I would suggest, should be the thread title. It no longer restricts us to the obtaining of Pilot Brevets, nor of being recruited in the Second World War. It is but a starting point on a journey that hopefully will never end, but "boldly go where no man has gone before"!....
Yes ! I regard my function as a wick around which other Posts can coalesce, like wax on a candle while I hang on to the old Title.
Your joke somehow underlines the common experience that unites us all, Danny, no matter when we joined. Maximum effort from the start or we have no use for you. That was the message, and it still is....Well said, sir !.....D.
#4759 camlobe ,
Danny,
Good to hear from you on your R&R. With regard to the Tri-Pacer, although there is a spring interconnect betwixt aileron and rudder (the American method of ensuring coordinated turns...makes for interesting crosswind landings though), I suspect the aircraft you are referring to is the Ercoupé, with all three axis controlled by the yoke, and because it didn't really stall, it couldn't be spun - simple and safe.......
You're right - it was the Ercoupé I had in mind ! - I remember when I were a lad, they said that about the Flying Flea (you could get the airframe for £75 from Lewis's [Department Store] in L'pool - needed some light home assembly !). You had to buy your own engine - they recommended the Scott "Flying Squirrel" M/Bike twin aircooled unit. The thing killed quite a few people before they found it wasn't as quite stall-proof as they'd thought.
They were interesting times....
and we were fated to live in them (the old Chinese curse !) ...D.
#4763 Fareastdriver,
Don't knock it......
or Chugalug will be on you like a ton of bricks !...D.
Next Post in ASAP, Cheers to all, Danny.
I seem to have started so many hares running at the same time, that the only way to get ahead of the pack is to lift a phrase or two from your Posts singly, and then put in a word or two in italic:
#4742 MPN11,
What we actually need is Danny to stop sitting on his bum at Gut, and get himself to Shawbury to be an ATC teeecher.....
Danny was sitting at Geilenkirchen , not Gütersloh, and will be for the next two years, then two more at Linton-on-Ouse, before he was let loose on the eager young Seekers after Knowledge 'twixt Grins Hill and the Wrekin ! Be patient and all will be revealed...D
#4753 Dave Wilson,
Danny next time I'm up there I'll have a look for your house and see if I can take a few shots........
Thanks, but found it last year on Google Street Search. It's right down the end of Bubwith Lane, recognisable as a red brick post-war (S/Ldrs) OMQ, trees around much grown up; it was the only MQ built there (for the C.O., I believe). Everyone else had to shift for themselves ! (I was at Linton, got the place as no one else wanted it - too far out in the sticks)
.
#4760 Danny, just caught your comment re the water at Breighton, there had been heavy rain the week before and the Derwent had burst it's banks, hence all of the large puddles!...
Ah, so ! Even so, I can't 'fix' myself anywhere - sorry......D.
#4754 Beagle,
BREIGHTON Danny, you might be interested in this site: Breighton which contains many photos of Breighton. This thread, The Real Aeroplane Company - Breighton Aerodrome also includes wartime photos of Breighton as well as the Thor IRBMs and Bloodhound Mk1 SAMs of later years.........
Thanks, very interesting - the second site was the more informative, and there were tantalising spots on the shots that "might have been". Searched the first (overhead) picture, down at the SW edge saw something possible, but under magnification - no)
The Piper Tri-Pacer, in its 'Caribbean' version, was the first aircraft in which I flew at the age of 11. It's a delightful light aeroplane and benefits from being a 'non-EASA' aeroplane, so is outside the €urocratic nonsense of EASA........
What was EASA, please ? Thanks again, (camlobe answers the question of the control coupling below) ....D.
#4758 Chugalug,
The one thing that should remain unchanged, I would suggest, should be the thread title. It no longer restricts us to the obtaining of Pilot Brevets, nor of being recruited in the Second World War. It is but a starting point on a journey that hopefully will never end, but "boldly go where no man has gone before"!....
Yes ! I regard my function as a wick around which other Posts can coalesce, like wax on a candle while I hang on to the old Title.
Your joke somehow underlines the common experience that unites us all, Danny, no matter when we joined. Maximum effort from the start or we have no use for you. That was the message, and it still is....Well said, sir !.....D.
#4759 camlobe ,
Danny,
Good to hear from you on your R&R. With regard to the Tri-Pacer, although there is a spring interconnect betwixt aileron and rudder (the American method of ensuring coordinated turns...makes for interesting crosswind landings though), I suspect the aircraft you are referring to is the Ercoupé, with all three axis controlled by the yoke, and because it didn't really stall, it couldn't be spun - simple and safe.......
You're right - it was the Ercoupé I had in mind ! - I remember when I were a lad, they said that about the Flying Flea (you could get the airframe for £75 from Lewis's [Department Store] in L'pool - needed some light home assembly !). You had to buy your own engine - they recommended the Scott "Flying Squirrel" M/Bike twin aircooled unit. The thing killed quite a few people before they found it wasn't as quite stall-proof as they'd thought.
They were interesting times....
and we were fated to live in them (the old Chinese curse !) ...D.
#4763 Fareastdriver,
Don't knock it......
or Chugalug will be on you like a ton of bricks !...D.
Next Post in ASAP, Cheers to all, Danny.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Danny relates some Local Customs.
Our route from the last stretch of autobahn across country to GK led us through a number of small country towns and villages, Fifty years ago we soon noticed differences from British practice. For a start, when they wanted to do a repair to the road surface, or dig a hole for the utilities, there was none of this business of sticking in a set of traffic lights (or a man with a red flag) and working a one-way system.
They simply closed the whole road off and set up a diversion (sometimes for miles) right round it. The villagers calmly accepted the dislocation, and I must say that the road workers generally got on with the job and finished it without undue delay.
In consequence, it was reckoned that the most often seen road sign in Germany was "Umleitung" (Diversion), but there was always plenty of the signs, one at every junction. They did not give you just one or two, and leave you to find your own way after that - as sometimes happens here at times, I'm afraid.
At home in those days, it was a common thing to find yourself head-on to a herd of cows coming in for milking, or sheep going to or coming from market (there are still some road warning signs on roads round here with a cow picture). These would, of course, block the whole road; there was nothing for it but wait patiently for the stream of animals to flow past before moving on. In the wake of a herd of cattle, the braking distance tended to increase !
There was little sheep-farming in the district of Heinsberg (which included GK), and the dairy or beef farmers were all smallholders , with no more than a dozen beasts each. They had found an answer to the problem of moving them about. A tractor would tow a long pole, and on both sides the cattle were chained by the neck to it, up to four beasts spaced down each side. The tractor was driven at slow walking pace, the animals did not seem to mind, I suppose they were used to it - and in any case they had little option. But a lane was left free for traffic.
The frequent "umleitungs" sent you into strange territory; there were some narrow-gauge steam lines snaking round the countryside, and these just crossed the roads and lanes as they pleased without any crossing control (I think there must have been warning signs on the roads). Luckily they were not TGVs, but ambled along at 15-20 mph, so it was easy to keep out of their way.
The German traffic rules for fog or poor visibility by day were the same as ours (IIRC) - it was up to the driver to decide whether to put lights on or not - but if he did it must be on dipped main beam. Two of our people were running in to GK in convoy. It was a misty morning, one was on sidelights (we have such folk among us yet). The Polizei grabbed him (Dm5 on-the-spot fine). His mate (no lights at all) sailed through unscathed.
The Volkspark run was the scene of a remarkable escape one day. One of our Controllers had come out after me. He was ex-aircrew (I don't know if war or postwar), had got badly burned (like Simon Weston) in a crash which ended his flying career. I've forgotten his name, but I remember the new export car he'd brought out. It was a P4 Rover 80 - I'd never seen such luxury - truly it was a "little Rolls-Royce". (Few of us could afford a car like that).
Anyway he was driving back to the Volkspark with his son (around 8, I think). Probably his wife was in front, for the lad was in the back with a Corporal to whom they'd given a lift. They were bowling along (not sure whether on autobahn or not). The boy started fiddling with the door catch on his side, the horrified Corporal leapt across to stop him, between the two the door flew open and the youngster fell out (the rear door hinge was at the back).
Our chap left a thousand miles' worth of rubber on the road. By good fortune, the traffic behind was well back, saw what had happened, and was able to keep well clear of the car and the boy. He must instinctively have adopted the "paratrooper's roll", spun along into the nearside verge, and wasn't far behind when they jumped out and scooped him up. He was not unconscious, but catatonic with shock and quite quiet. There were no obvious serious injuries.
They were close to Cologne, they kept going and rushed him to the Medical Centre in the Volkspark. They gave him first-aid, sedated him; an ambulance took him up to the RAF hospital at Wegberg. He was a very sore little boy for a long time, with abrasions and bruises, but miraculously no real damage had been done and he made a full recovery.
The Corporal was in an agony of remorse, of course, but it wasn't his fault, he'd acted for the best. What happened had been a pure accident.
Goodnight, chaps,
Danny42C.
Wonders will never cease !
They simply closed the whole road off and set up a diversion (sometimes for miles) right round it. The villagers calmly accepted the dislocation, and I must say that the road workers generally got on with the job and finished it without undue delay.
In consequence, it was reckoned that the most often seen road sign in Germany was "Umleitung" (Diversion), but there was always plenty of the signs, one at every junction. They did not give you just one or two, and leave you to find your own way after that - as sometimes happens here at times, I'm afraid.
At home in those days, it was a common thing to find yourself head-on to a herd of cows coming in for milking, or sheep going to or coming from market (there are still some road warning signs on roads round here with a cow picture). These would, of course, block the whole road; there was nothing for it but wait patiently for the stream of animals to flow past before moving on. In the wake of a herd of cattle, the braking distance tended to increase !
There was little sheep-farming in the district of Heinsberg (which included GK), and the dairy or beef farmers were all smallholders , with no more than a dozen beasts each. They had found an answer to the problem of moving them about. A tractor would tow a long pole, and on both sides the cattle were chained by the neck to it, up to four beasts spaced down each side. The tractor was driven at slow walking pace, the animals did not seem to mind, I suppose they were used to it - and in any case they had little option. But a lane was left free for traffic.
The frequent "umleitungs" sent you into strange territory; there were some narrow-gauge steam lines snaking round the countryside, and these just crossed the roads and lanes as they pleased without any crossing control (I think there must have been warning signs on the roads). Luckily they were not TGVs, but ambled along at 15-20 mph, so it was easy to keep out of their way.
The German traffic rules for fog or poor visibility by day were the same as ours (IIRC) - it was up to the driver to decide whether to put lights on or not - but if he did it must be on dipped main beam. Two of our people were running in to GK in convoy. It was a misty morning, one was on sidelights (we have such folk among us yet). The Polizei grabbed him (Dm5 on-the-spot fine). His mate (no lights at all) sailed through unscathed.
The Volkspark run was the scene of a remarkable escape one day. One of our Controllers had come out after me. He was ex-aircrew (I don't know if war or postwar), had got badly burned (like Simon Weston) in a crash which ended his flying career. I've forgotten his name, but I remember the new export car he'd brought out. It was a P4 Rover 80 - I'd never seen such luxury - truly it was a "little Rolls-Royce". (Few of us could afford a car like that).
Anyway he was driving back to the Volkspark with his son (around 8, I think). Probably his wife was in front, for the lad was in the back with a Corporal to whom they'd given a lift. They were bowling along (not sure whether on autobahn or not). The boy started fiddling with the door catch on his side, the horrified Corporal leapt across to stop him, between the two the door flew open and the youngster fell out (the rear door hinge was at the back).
Our chap left a thousand miles' worth of rubber on the road. By good fortune, the traffic behind was well back, saw what had happened, and was able to keep well clear of the car and the boy. He must instinctively have adopted the "paratrooper's roll", spun along into the nearside verge, and wasn't far behind when they jumped out and scooped him up. He was not unconscious, but catatonic with shock and quite quiet. There were no obvious serious injuries.
They were close to Cologne, they kept going and rushed him to the Medical Centre in the Volkspark. They gave him first-aid, sedated him; an ambulance took him up to the RAF hospital at Wegberg. He was a very sore little boy for a long time, with abrasions and bruises, but miraculously no real damage had been done and he made a full recovery.
The Corporal was in an agony of remorse, of course, but it wasn't his fault, he'd acted for the best. What happened had been a pure accident.
Goodnight, chaps,
Danny42C.
Wonders will never cease !
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: UK
Posts: 217
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What was EASA, please ?
Fareastdriver,
nice pic of TG 528 taken I presume at Duxford before she was repainted and moved indoors. After disposal in 1968, 528 went to the Skyfame Museum at Staverton. I went to pay my respects and a young chap showed me round. In the galley I put my hand down the sound proofing and produced a pad of trim sheets and a stick of paper cups. He was astounded and asked how I knew they were there. I explained you could have found the same on any Hastings. 528 is in my log book but chugalug is the Hastings meister on these threads. He may be persuaded to tell his tale of the 'interesting' arrival he once had at West Raynham in a Hastings. The Hastings was described as being built of old Halifax parts left over From WW2.
nice pic of TG 528 taken I presume at Duxford before she was repainted and moved indoors. After disposal in 1968, 528 went to the Skyfame Museum at Staverton. I went to pay my respects and a young chap showed me round. In the galley I put my hand down the sound proofing and produced a pad of trim sheets and a stick of paper cups. He was astounded and asked how I knew they were there. I explained you could have found the same on any Hastings. 528 is in my log book but chugalug is the Hastings meister on these threads. He may be persuaded to tell his tale of the 'interesting' arrival he once had at West Raynham in a Hastings. The Hastings was described as being built of old Halifax parts left over From WW2.
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: very west
Age: 65
Posts: 262
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
EASA, the short version.
Not long after the initial start of powered, controlled flight, the American authorities decided that a body should be put in place to regulate and promote aviation, this body being entitled the Civil Aeronautics Administration. This blossomed into the now worldwide Federal Aviation Administration. The FAA have done an excellent job of making practical and generally well thought out regulations for all aspects of aviation, from ATC, through manufacturing, maintenance and operation of aircraft.
The disparate European countries all had their own regulations as did the UK, in our case, administered by the Civil Aviation Authority. The French had the DGAC, the Germans the LBA etc, etc. and they were all different.
The large transport aircraft market became filled by American manufacturers. Boeing, Douglas, Lockheed, etc following the demise of the UK aircraft manufacturers (and to a similar extent, the French).
Then a new kid appeared on the block, Airbus. This conglomerate was made up of European manufacturers, each constructing sub-assemblies of the embryonic Airbus A3XX series of airliners. A far more affordable route for the European manufacturers.
But the various European countries were looking much further ahead. They wanted to be able to shoulder up to the great FAA on an equal footing. This would mean that all the European aviation authorities would have to amalgamate into one body. In the early 1990's, the Joint Aviation Authorities was the result, and aviation was introduced to Joint Aviation Requirements. Think of one new set of GUIDELINES for all European countries. Guidelines, because none of it was ratified and made law. The UK CAA, always wanting to be at the forefront, enforced almost all of these new guidelines as mandatory. The basic idea of one set of rules throughout Europe sounds almost sensible. However, each and every Member State retained the right to change or ignore any part or whole of any of these guidelines. It was a shambles.
Airbus, gained parity with the American manufacturers a couple of years ago in terms of hulls constructed per annum. Well done.
Unfortunately, over a decade ago, it was accepted by the EU that JAR's weren't working as originally envisaged. So they changed the name to European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) rewrote and ratified the regulations, and they rushed it. Unfortunately, it is now law, and it is taking over ten years to try and sort some of it out. Another shambles. Industry was not consulted in any genuine sense. Graduates sat around tables and made regulations about subjects that they had absolutely no experience of. And the rest of us have had to pick up the pieces and huge bills. It has not been, and is still not a good experience.
The reality is, industry was very happy with the idea of one system. Any of us on here knows that the "one system everywhere" worked in the UK Armed Forces. There was never any doubt, as the general rules were the same, no matter where you were posted. The aviation industry was almost unanimous in the idea of adopting the largest civil system in use at the time, the FAA system. Politics wouldn't allow it.
To give some idea of the EASA regulation creating process, a working group was drafting up another new regulation, this one for the requirements for the carriage of radio and other Nav aids in an aircraft. After considerable quantities of ink and coffee, complete with rounds of back slapping, the UK representative enquires about the regulations for aircraft that were non-radio. None of the European rule-makers were aware that an aircraft could possibly be capable of flight without a radio.
Camlobe
You couldn't make it up.
The disparate European countries all had their own regulations as did the UK, in our case, administered by the Civil Aviation Authority. The French had the DGAC, the Germans the LBA etc, etc. and they were all different.
The large transport aircraft market became filled by American manufacturers. Boeing, Douglas, Lockheed, etc following the demise of the UK aircraft manufacturers (and to a similar extent, the French).
Then a new kid appeared on the block, Airbus. This conglomerate was made up of European manufacturers, each constructing sub-assemblies of the embryonic Airbus A3XX series of airliners. A far more affordable route for the European manufacturers.
But the various European countries were looking much further ahead. They wanted to be able to shoulder up to the great FAA on an equal footing. This would mean that all the European aviation authorities would have to amalgamate into one body. In the early 1990's, the Joint Aviation Authorities was the result, and aviation was introduced to Joint Aviation Requirements. Think of one new set of GUIDELINES for all European countries. Guidelines, because none of it was ratified and made law. The UK CAA, always wanting to be at the forefront, enforced almost all of these new guidelines as mandatory. The basic idea of one set of rules throughout Europe sounds almost sensible. However, each and every Member State retained the right to change or ignore any part or whole of any of these guidelines. It was a shambles.
Airbus, gained parity with the American manufacturers a couple of years ago in terms of hulls constructed per annum. Well done.
Unfortunately, over a decade ago, it was accepted by the EU that JAR's weren't working as originally envisaged. So they changed the name to European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) rewrote and ratified the regulations, and they rushed it. Unfortunately, it is now law, and it is taking over ten years to try and sort some of it out. Another shambles. Industry was not consulted in any genuine sense. Graduates sat around tables and made regulations about subjects that they had absolutely no experience of. And the rest of us have had to pick up the pieces and huge bills. It has not been, and is still not a good experience.
The reality is, industry was very happy with the idea of one system. Any of us on here knows that the "one system everywhere" worked in the UK Armed Forces. There was never any doubt, as the general rules were the same, no matter where you were posted. The aviation industry was almost unanimous in the idea of adopting the largest civil system in use at the time, the FAA system. Politics wouldn't allow it.
To give some idea of the EASA regulation creating process, a working group was drafting up another new regulation, this one for the requirements for the carriage of radio and other Nav aids in an aircraft. After considerable quantities of ink and coffee, complete with rounds of back slapping, the UK representative enquires about the regulations for aircraft that were non-radio. None of the European rule-makers were aware that an aircraft could possibly be capable of flight without a radio.
Camlobe
You couldn't make it up.
The same bunch of €urocratic imbeciles also decided that all aircraft must be fitted with airspeed indicators....
....including balloons.
Fortunately the frog in charge has now left, much to everyone's relief. Another Frenchman now runs EASA; he at least is a pilot.
Our CAA has at last woken up to the realisation that they need to behave like Churchill, not Chamberlain, towards the Kölnic irritation of EASA's €urocracy.
A few of us have dug in our heels and refused to roll over to stupidity and with CAA backing, have at least managed to win a few victories.
EASA wanted one set of rules for the whole of the Rei....of Europe. And presumably tomorrow, the world. Hence we see ridiculous concepts such as Mountain Ratings....in the Netherlands.
....including balloons.
Fortunately the frog in charge has now left, much to everyone's relief. Another Frenchman now runs EASA; he at least is a pilot.
Our CAA has at last woken up to the realisation that they need to behave like Churchill, not Chamberlain, towards the Kölnic irritation of EASA's €urocracy.
A few of us have dug in our heels and refused to roll over to stupidity and with CAA backing, have at least managed to win a few victories.
EASA wanted one set of rules for the whole of the Rei....of Europe. And presumably tomorrow, the world. Hence we see ridiculous concepts such as Mountain Ratings....in the Netherlands.
Ahhh, EASA, latest in the long line of acronyms for aviation governance. My first was the ARB, Air Registration Board, which was set up in 1936 to control civil aviation, and my engineer's licence was granted 45 years ago after a three-year course overseen by ARB surveyor C. H. Taylor from Manchester.
Charlie Taylor (of course he was Mr. Taylor to me) had been responsible for keeping 80-odd Tiger Moths in the air at some wartime training station, and knew them inside out. When he had time on his visits to conduct C of A annual inspections he took me around our group Tiger to show me every known point of possible failure and where to find the repair schemes for it. Having passed my written exams, my final hurdle was the oral exam conducted by the ARB surveyor on each type to be added to the licence. My oral on the Tiger lasted almost two hours, double the usual, and he seemed as delighted as I was when he declared I had passed.
About 1971 Mr. Taylor told me that a new body was to replace the ARB and would license me on whole groups of similar aircraft rather than individual types. Of course I was delighted (with exams at £30 a time) but he said it was not all good news as the new systems might not function as well as the old.
Like most of his generation, Mr. Taylor was guarded in his comments but foresaw the vast and expensive bureaucracy that would flourish in the CAA. On one of his last visits before retirement he told me: "I don't think the industry really needs all this administration ... when the weight of the paperwork equals the max takeoff weight of the aircraft, then it's fit to fly".
Decades have passed and I'm long out of touch, but I did hear that one of EASA's triumphs was the introduction of new transponders to display info such as the aircraft registration as well as the usual four-digit squawk and the altitude. Long-suffering aircraft operators forked out thousands of pounds for each installation but hey, it helps safety doesn't it?
Came the day of the great switch-on, and ATC screens over northern Europe were plastered by all the extra info to the extent that individual aircraft were hard to distinguish. Crews were asked to turn off the new mode until requested.
I fear this thread is veering off course again, so I'll say no more other than We had the Best Days!
Charlie Taylor (of course he was Mr. Taylor to me) had been responsible for keeping 80-odd Tiger Moths in the air at some wartime training station, and knew them inside out. When he had time on his visits to conduct C of A annual inspections he took me around our group Tiger to show me every known point of possible failure and where to find the repair schemes for it. Having passed my written exams, my final hurdle was the oral exam conducted by the ARB surveyor on each type to be added to the licence. My oral on the Tiger lasted almost two hours, double the usual, and he seemed as delighted as I was when he declared I had passed.
About 1971 Mr. Taylor told me that a new body was to replace the ARB and would license me on whole groups of similar aircraft rather than individual types. Of course I was delighted (with exams at £30 a time) but he said it was not all good news as the new systems might not function as well as the old.
Like most of his generation, Mr. Taylor was guarded in his comments but foresaw the vast and expensive bureaucracy that would flourish in the CAA. On one of his last visits before retirement he told me: "I don't think the industry really needs all this administration ... when the weight of the paperwork equals the max takeoff weight of the aircraft, then it's fit to fly".
Decades have passed and I'm long out of touch, but I did hear that one of EASA's triumphs was the introduction of new transponders to display info such as the aircraft registration as well as the usual four-digit squawk and the altitude. Long-suffering aircraft operators forked out thousands of pounds for each installation but hey, it helps safety doesn't it?
Came the day of the great switch-on, and ATC screens over northern Europe were plastered by all the extra info to the extent that individual aircraft were hard to distinguish. Crews were asked to turn off the new mode until requested.
I fear this thread is veering off course again, so I'll say no more other than We had the Best Days!
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: UK
Posts: 217
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The EASA vomit that really appalled me was their attempt to get rid of the UK IMC rating. The European Aviation SAFETY Agency wanted to scrap a rating which since it was introduced some time in the 60's has seen the loss of ONE IMC rated pilot flying in bad weather. Compared to deaths on the continent UKGA has a proud record of safety (I know it might not seem it at times).
I take my hat off to people like Beags and AOPA becuse due to their stirling efforts the goons have had a rethink and there seems to be a light at the end of the tunnel.
Beags if we ever meet the first one is on me.
I take my hat off to people like Beags and AOPA becuse due to their stirling efforts the goons have had a rethink and there seems to be a light at the end of the tunnel.
Beags if we ever meet the first one is on me.
That's very kind of you, Dave.
When we heard that the FCL.008 gang had failed to come up with a proposal for the retention of the UK IMCR, the first change we secured was to retain IMCR privileges for those who'd ever held them before.
Then when we learned about the French getting their way with their Brevet de Base, I proposed to EASA that this precedent should also be exteneded to the IMCR. "No", they said, "That's not possible!".
Well, that was May 2011. So we then called for the restoration of the pervious JAA flexibility. But the 'One Rule, one Europe, one Leader!' attitude of these €urocrats was having none of it.
But then in October 2013, the European Commission, rather than the square-heads in EASA, came up with exactly the proposal I'd first propose 2½ years previously...and the vote in favour was unanimous. It should now become law in (probably) June 2014.
Danny and his generation fought to ensure that Great Britain would survive rather than be crushed under jackboots - and despite the wishes of deviant politicians, I was damned if I was going to let some unelected €urocrats push us around some 70 years later. Fortunately, there is now a change in the air and it seems that a more robust manner is now being taken by the UK when dealing with €urocracy.
One hesitates to draw politics into PPRuNe, but googling 'Nigel Farage vs. Barroso' on YoofTube is always good for some light relief!
Now let's get back to the theme of the thread!
One
When we heard that the FCL.008 gang had failed to come up with a proposal for the retention of the UK IMCR, the first change we secured was to retain IMCR privileges for those who'd ever held them before.
Then when we learned about the French getting their way with their Brevet de Base, I proposed to EASA that this precedent should also be exteneded to the IMCR. "No", they said, "That's not possible!".
Well, that was May 2011. So we then called for the restoration of the pervious JAA flexibility. But the 'One Rule, one Europe, one Leader!' attitude of these €urocrats was having none of it.
But then in October 2013, the European Commission, rather than the square-heads in EASA, came up with exactly the proposal I'd first propose 2½ years previously...and the vote in favour was unanimous. It should now become law in (probably) June 2014.
Danny and his generation fought to ensure that Great Britain would survive rather than be crushed under jackboots - and despite the wishes of deviant politicians, I was damned if I was going to let some unelected €urocrats push us around some 70 years later. Fortunately, there is now a change in the air and it seems that a more robust manner is now being taken by the UK when dealing with €urocracy.
One hesitates to draw politics into PPRuNe, but googling 'Nigel Farage vs. Barroso' on YoofTube is always good for some light relief!
Now let's get back to the theme of the thread!
One
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Often in Jersey, but mainly in the past.
Age: 79
Posts: 7,810
Received 135 Likes
on
63 Posts
Absolutely, BEagle ... anything to do with €urope is just a convenient place to have an armed conflict
As for Brussels....
Capital of Belgium. A small country whose sole reason to exist is to provide a suitable venue for France and Germany to settle their differences without ruining each others' wine harvests.....
Capital of Belgium. A small country whose sole reason to exist is to provide a suitable venue for France and Germany to settle their differences without ruining each others' wine harvests.....
Ancientaviator42
This one perhaps - a VERY interesting landing.
PS. Not 100%, but was this at West Raynham?
chugalug is the Hastings meister on these threads. He may be persuaded to tell his tale of the 'interesting' arrival he once had at West Raynham in a Hastings.
PS. Not 100%, but was this at West Raynham?
Last edited by Warmtoast; 13th Dec 2013 at 21:11. Reason: To add PS