MoD fury as Brown wields axe
Gents,
I often spend long periods of time in a place I don't want to be, doing things I don't want to to. I have reached the point where I no longer feel the RAF is moving in a coherent direction and will be leaving soon.
I understand the outrage, anguish and utter despair at what this government is doing to the the last fragment of British society still in some semblence of working order, but I feel some of the ideas floated on here run the risk of politicizing the Armed Forces.
My Great grandfather was torpedo'd off Southern Ireland by a U Boat, rescued and torpedo'd agin. He didn't come home.
My grandfather landed on the Normandy beaches on 06 June 1944, having spent several months previously fighting in North Africa. Neither would have dreamed of marching through London.
Times have moved on, but the current fiasco is no worse than the one during the 1930's of which Winston Churchill repaeatedly warned parliament.
Things are badly wrong with the Armed Forces, but the leadership sees fit to stick it's head in the sand, and worry about JPA and fitness strategies. Are you going to turn your back on MOD MB? They are equally complicit.
I am not saying you are wrong, but I myself could not reconcile that with the memory of my grandparents endeavours and sacrifices.
I wish you good luck, but think very carefully about the path you are about to tread.
I often spend long periods of time in a place I don't want to be, doing things I don't want to to. I have reached the point where I no longer feel the RAF is moving in a coherent direction and will be leaving soon.
I understand the outrage, anguish and utter despair at what this government is doing to the the last fragment of British society still in some semblence of working order, but I feel some of the ideas floated on here run the risk of politicizing the Armed Forces.
My Great grandfather was torpedo'd off Southern Ireland by a U Boat, rescued and torpedo'd agin. He didn't come home.
My grandfather landed on the Normandy beaches on 06 June 1944, having spent several months previously fighting in North Africa. Neither would have dreamed of marching through London.
Times have moved on, but the current fiasco is no worse than the one during the 1930's of which Winston Churchill repaeatedly warned parliament.
Things are badly wrong with the Armed Forces, but the leadership sees fit to stick it's head in the sand, and worry about JPA and fitness strategies. Are you going to turn your back on MOD MB? They are equally complicit.
I am not saying you are wrong, but I myself could not reconcile that with the memory of my grandparents endeavours and sacrifices.
I wish you good luck, but think very carefully about the path you are about to tread.
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Mini
I think your Grandparents, witnessing the current situation would be screaming at you to march. They had no choice, you do. The thought of them dying for a service that WILL dwindle to a small European force? Mmmmm... I don't think they would like that.
I think your Grandparents, witnessing the current situation would be screaming at you to march. They had no choice, you do. The thought of them dying for a service that WILL dwindle to a small European force? Mmmmm... I don't think they would like that.
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That is the first sensible post I have seen from minigundimplomat, and I recommend others read it.
I agree with much of what he says. It is not just the government at fault here, the leadership (or lack of) within the armed forces and the MoD itself have an awful lot to answer for.
S_H
I agree with much of what he says. It is not just the government at fault here, the leadership (or lack of) within the armed forces and the MoD itself have an awful lot to answer for.
S_H
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Recognising that both the political situation and "society" were totally different in the run up to WWII, I can't help wondering whether a march similar to that being proposed on this thread would have had any effect. Like Minigundiplomat (and many of us) I lost antecedents in that war.
I think that both my grandfathers (one a bootie (1919 Murmansk), the other light blue (sandpit the first time round!) - both regulars prior to WWII) would have approved of a mass ignoring of Parliament & MOD MB - it is, however, a great shame that IMHO it will take at least an event like this before our political lords and masters "wake up and smell the coffee".
HILF
I think that both my grandfathers (one a bootie (1919 Murmansk), the other light blue (sandpit the first time round!) - both regulars prior to WWII) would have approved of a mass ignoring of Parliament & MOD MB - it is, however, a great shame that IMHO it will take at least an event like this before our political lords and masters "wake up and smell the coffee".
HILF
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Maybe, just maybe this is what is required to rein in the suppliers to the MOD. Yesterday BAE announced profits of 1.48 billion and yet do not seem able to deliver anything much on time or within budget.
Statement from link:
In programmes and support, which comprises the company's UK-based air, naval and underwater systems, profits rose to £456 million from £342 million
http://www.channel4.com/news/article...+148bn/1617547
Statement from link:
In programmes and support, which comprises the company's UK-based air, naval and underwater systems, profits rose to £456 million from £342 million
http://www.channel4.com/news/article...+148bn/1617547
Last edited by mutleyfour; 22nd Feb 2008 at 07:22. Reason: Forgot the link
"Yesterday BAE announced profits of 1.48 billion and yet do not seem able to deliver anything much on time or within budget".
While my example doesn't relate to BAeS, there are established precedents whereby the Chief of Defence Procurement upheld decisions to waive contractual obligations or ignore failures to meet these obligations, yet still pay off the contracts in full. And then fork out again to the same company to do it properly. And when they failed, pay them and ..........
It makes my blood boil, especially when the failure left aircraft unsafe. I know it's difficult, and perhaps impossible these days, but I well recall one commercial officer I worked with who, under these circumstances (MoD being shafted) would agree a fair and reasonable price and then invite the company to knock 20% off it if they wanted the job. To be fair however, it's only a certain protected few who routinely stiff us.
While my example doesn't relate to BAeS, there are established precedents whereby the Chief of Defence Procurement upheld decisions to waive contractual obligations or ignore failures to meet these obligations, yet still pay off the contracts in full. And then fork out again to the same company to do it properly. And when they failed, pay them and ..........
It makes my blood boil, especially when the failure left aircraft unsafe. I know it's difficult, and perhaps impossible these days, but I well recall one commercial officer I worked with who, under these circumstances (MoD being shafted) would agree a fair and reasonable price and then invite the company to knock 20% off it if they wanted the job. To be fair however, it's only a certain protected few who routinely stiff us.
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I have to agree with MGD, although I am all for a march or some kind of peaceful protest, it does worry me that it would in some way weaken some of the foundations of the British forces.
Perhaps a march by forces families and ex forces would enable the same message to be put across but not tarnish the serving forces reputation.
...........
Beatriz Fontana, yeah I'm not keen on the last quote but it was just off the cuff, I'm sure someone else could come up with a better tag line.
Perhaps a march by forces families and ex forces would enable the same message to be put across but not tarnish the serving forces reputation.
...........
Beatriz Fontana, yeah I'm not keen on the last quote but it was just off the cuff, I'm sure someone else could come up with a better tag line.
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Dreadnoughts
Perhaps a comparison could be made to the early 1900's when the nation cried out for more dreadnoughts than the government had funded. If only we can raise peoples awareness of what the future funding of the MoD will mean, in terms they can identify with, ie:
1) cannot do a falklands (Task group size, attrition and sustainability)
2) cannot afford to launch our own air attack without US support (specialist support, quantity of tanking etc)
3) cannot get the army to where they need to be and support them. (heavy lift, RW support)
Ma'am, your trusted servants need you more than ever!
1) cannot do a falklands (Task group size, attrition and sustainability)
2) cannot afford to launch our own air attack without US support (specialist support, quantity of tanking etc)
3) cannot get the army to where they need to be and support them. (heavy lift, RW support)
Ma'am, your trusted servants need you more than ever!
> 2) cannot afford to launch our own air attack without US support (specialist
> support, quantity of tanking etc)
Much as I understand the sentiment here, can I suggest from my purely civvy perspective that you probably don't want to use the ability to act unilaterally as a case in point? Countries throwing their military weight around without international (preferably UN) support is not a concept you're going to get a lot of love for in the current political climate, even if it does mean effectively the same as "we couldn't do Falklands now."
What enervates me about this (as a minority shareholder in UK PLC and therefore with an interest in the cost-effectiveness of its, er, security guards) why defence is so bloody expensive and yet still needs cutting all the time. I mean, one or the other...
P
> support, quantity of tanking etc)
Much as I understand the sentiment here, can I suggest from my purely civvy perspective that you probably don't want to use the ability to act unilaterally as a case in point? Countries throwing their military weight around without international (preferably UN) support is not a concept you're going to get a lot of love for in the current political climate, even if it does mean effectively the same as "we couldn't do Falklands now."
What enervates me about this (as a minority shareholder in UK PLC and therefore with an interest in the cost-effectiveness of its, er, security guards) why defence is so bloody expensive and yet still needs cutting all the time. I mean, one or the other...
P
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well, no suprise but the no10 petition was refused but no worries. i have arranged something else but want your views on it first as it's you that's affected by it and it's you that i am trying to support.
i have been thinking about all that's been suggested and to say it's a mixed bag and my reactions to that have varied but i am back on line as it were. i guess it's fair to say i have been confused. the fact that there has been 15,000 viewers to this thread but only 153 comments has left me thinking could this be a reality?? then i realise what has been achieved with a handful of people and though it would be good to have the masses present, constraints make that more of a dream not necessary a reality. shame really. i really appreciate all views though.
this is what i am trying to say in petition, let me know if you agree.
we, the undersigned petition the government to put a stop to the planned cuts to the defence budgets and to supply proper funding to allow all our forces to be equipped according to the comittments made.
the ongoing cuts to an already struggling institutioncontinues to be a travesty that must be stopped. this is echoesd in the increasing number of recorded verdicts of unlawful killing in soliders deaths who have died due to the consistent failings to properly equip our troops. you request our armed forces to protect us and continue to serve queen and country then you must ensure more funds are available and serve your public.
tell me what you think before i register it, and is that to the point and of a theme enough?
i have been thinking about all that's been suggested and to say it's a mixed bag and my reactions to that have varied but i am back on line as it were. i guess it's fair to say i have been confused. the fact that there has been 15,000 viewers to this thread but only 153 comments has left me thinking could this be a reality?? then i realise what has been achieved with a handful of people and though it would be good to have the masses present, constraints make that more of a dream not necessary a reality. shame really. i really appreciate all views though.
this is what i am trying to say in petition, let me know if you agree.
we, the undersigned petition the government to put a stop to the planned cuts to the defence budgets and to supply proper funding to allow all our forces to be equipped according to the comittments made.
the ongoing cuts to an already struggling institutioncontinues to be a travesty that must be stopped. this is echoesd in the increasing number of recorded verdicts of unlawful killing in soliders deaths who have died due to the consistent failings to properly equip our troops. you request our armed forces to protect us and continue to serve queen and country then you must ensure more funds are available and serve your public.
tell me what you think before i register it, and is that to the point and of a theme enough?
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Tigs2,
In response to your (much) earlier post asking about numbers on the police march, I have been reliably informed (by one who was there) that there were approximately 27,000 who turned out. It worked to a certain extent, in that they have been given a judicial review of their pay award. There are about 150,000 coppers of all shapes and sizes in the UK, which is not too dissimilar to the number in the Forces nowadays, so who knows how many service personnel it would take to highly embarass this necrotic shambles of a government again?
In response to your (much) earlier post asking about numbers on the police march, I have been reliably informed (by one who was there) that there were approximately 27,000 who turned out. It worked to a certain extent, in that they have been given a judicial review of their pay award. There are about 150,000 coppers of all shapes and sizes in the UK, which is not too dissimilar to the number in the Forces nowadays, so who knows how many service personnel it would take to highly embarass this necrotic shambles of a government again?
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"can I suggest from my purely civvy perspective that you probably don't want to use the ability to act unilaterally as a case in point?"
the point is we can't even act as part of a coalition without the yanks (niether can the rest of europe mind)
if they dont want to join the party and the enemy are armed with anything more than awfully sharp slices of mango, there's nothing we can do
the point is we can't even act as part of a coalition without the yanks (niether can the rest of europe mind)
if they dont want to join the party and the enemy are armed with anything more than awfully sharp slices of mango, there's nothing we can do
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Chappie,
I'm happy to support and sign such a petition (and pass on the message to family and friends) - let us know when its up.
I'm also still in favour of some sort of mass protest - I think it'll take more than a petition that El Gordo can choose to just ignore.
Thankyou for taking this on.
HILF
I'm happy to support and sign such a petition (and pass on the message to family and friends) - let us know when its up.
I'm also still in favour of some sort of mass protest - I think it'll take more than a petition that El Gordo can choose to just ignore.
Thankyou for taking this on.
HILF
For all the talk of marches on Downing St and public demonstrations, you must know deep down that this will never happen.
The last military demonstration of any significance I can recall was in the late 1970s by the 'Waddington Wives' at the level of pay we had at the time.
The only real hope is for senior officers to stand up and be counted. Together, of course, with an end to the totalitarian regime of Golden Brown - but only by democratic means!
The last military demonstration of any significance I can recall was in the late 1970s by the 'Waddington Wives' at the level of pay we had at the time.
The only real hope is for senior officers to stand up and be counted. Together, of course, with an end to the totalitarian regime of Golden Brown - but only by democratic means!
Sadly even if the Service chiefs were to fall on their sword it would make no difference at all - there are sufficient power hungry yes men lower down the tree who would be more than happy to step up to the plate for 2 years, make no difference whatsoever and leave with a massive pension and gratuity. Even Swiss Des throwing in the towel would give Prudence Brown the opportunity to put another yes man in post. Notice any change when Lord Drayson quit? Thought not.
As for the worker bees in MOD (OF5 and below I'm talking about). Cut them some slack - they are trying to do their best under some very trying circumstances. With no (and I mean no) strategic direction and a government who does not want to hear any bad news that may affect their popularity (loss of UK jobs, closure of UK industry etc) there can be no progress. A demonstration would elevate the issue in the press but for how long? Mass PVRs - whilst the PVR rate is apparantly within historical norms (don't shoot the messenger!) the rate people are leaving at their option points is increasing. Is it making a blind bit of difference? Sadly no - but it is playing into the hands of the government who are reducing the wage bill without having to pay redundancy! All we will end up with is a very young Armed Forces with lots of operational experience but nothing else. I'm sure there is a far eastern air force (Singapore?) where their equivalent of CDS is 35 but he, like the rest of their serviceman are out by 38. Would this work here? I believe it is already happening - whilst we still have sufficient numbers walking through the recruiting office doors (which I admit is arguable at the moment) those leaving at the top end of the tree are replaced by pulling up those from below. Interesting to know what the dilution rate actually is or have they changed the definition to make the stats better?
As for the worker bees in MOD (OF5 and below I'm talking about). Cut them some slack - they are trying to do their best under some very trying circumstances. With no (and I mean no) strategic direction and a government who does not want to hear any bad news that may affect their popularity (loss of UK jobs, closure of UK industry etc) there can be no progress. A demonstration would elevate the issue in the press but for how long? Mass PVRs - whilst the PVR rate is apparantly within historical norms (don't shoot the messenger!) the rate people are leaving at their option points is increasing. Is it making a blind bit of difference? Sadly no - but it is playing into the hands of the government who are reducing the wage bill without having to pay redundancy! All we will end up with is a very young Armed Forces with lots of operational experience but nothing else. I'm sure there is a far eastern air force (Singapore?) where their equivalent of CDS is 35 but he, like the rest of their serviceman are out by 38. Would this work here? I believe it is already happening - whilst we still have sufficient numbers walking through the recruiting office doors (which I admit is arguable at the moment) those leaving at the top end of the tree are replaced by pulling up those from below. Interesting to know what the dilution rate actually is or have they changed the definition to make the stats better?
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petition tp sign, time to spread the word.
hi, petition now done, i hope that the link i put in works if not i will need a computer bod to help me!
this is the start!
www.PetitionOnline.com/bobsis1/petition.html
please sign and spread the word. i will be going away till wednesday but will do as much as i can before i go later depending on little ones behaving, as believe you me a 10 month old and computer do not mix!
this is the start!
www.PetitionOnline.com/bobsis1/petition.html
please sign and spread the word. i will be going away till wednesday but will do as much as i can before i go later depending on little ones behaving, as believe you me a 10 month old and computer do not mix!
Isn't the weasel-word 'capability holiday'?
I do wish someone would publish the statistics showing the strength in personnel, aerodromes and aircraft of the RAF on 1 Apr 1968, 78, 88, 98 and 2008......
Then we might really see how bad things are nowadays.
I do wish someone would publish the statistics showing the strength in personnel, aerodromes and aircraft of the RAF on 1 Apr 1968, 78, 88, 98 and 2008......
Then we might really see how bad things are nowadays.
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Could I ask, and I'm sorry if I'm being dense, why this petition is not a No 10 Downing St website petition? If we sign something outside the Government's own systems, they'll have as good a reason as ever to completely ignore people's opinions.
Also, and sorry for being a pedant, you should have had that proofread before posting it. As strong as the sentiment is, I'm sorry to say that it looks slapdash and is not likely to be taken seriously (not that Broon seems to be the sort of man to take people's genuine opinions seriously anyway!). If your plan is to succeed, you need to be 100% accurate and professional, or you'll cut out a lot of people who might see it as a flash-in-the-pan effort instead of a solid expression of outrage.
Also, and sorry for being a pedant, you should have had that proofread before posting it. As strong as the sentiment is, I'm sorry to say that it looks slapdash and is not likely to be taken seriously (not that Broon seems to be the sort of man to take people's genuine opinions seriously anyway!). If your plan is to succeed, you need to be 100% accurate and professional, or you'll cut out a lot of people who might see it as a flash-in-the-pan effort instead of a solid expression of outrage.