Salamanca Puma Crash Site Memorial
Avoid imitations
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ShyTorque stated that they thought the aircraft was in a high hover
I think the accident occurred on takeoff. An engine failed, the rotor RPM drooped and the alternators tripped off line. This caused the autopilot to drop out, destabilising the aircraft, which had insufficient power on the remaining engine to fly away. The pilot had no option except to attempt a landing back on the pad. Unfortunately the aircraft drifted back beyond the pad and crashed a few metres back from it. All on board were lost.
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Shy:
Sorry. I took the phrases "on take-off" and "the aircraft drifted back beyond the pad" to mean that you thought they had not yet begun to transition. I interpolated a "high" hover since it was a night take-off towards trees so the initial lift tended to be higher than the standard 10 to 15 feet and may have been as high as 50.
The point I was making is that I didn't believe the crash site was where the memorial is today as someone had stated. For it to have crashed there, bearing in mind the now known location of the landing pads, would have meant that it would have, most probably, experienced the failure in the hover over the pads.
Again, sorry. My "twisting" of your words was an innocent interpolation.
Sorry. I took the phrases "on take-off" and "the aircraft drifted back beyond the pad" to mean that you thought they had not yet begun to transition. I interpolated a "high" hover since it was a night take-off towards trees so the initial lift tended to be higher than the standard 10 to 15 feet and may have been as high as 50.
The point I was making is that I didn't believe the crash site was where the memorial is today as someone had stated. For it to have crashed there, bearing in mind the now known location of the landing pads, would have meant that it would have, most probably, experienced the failure in the hover over the pads.
Again, sorry. My "twisting" of your words was an innocent interpolation.
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AA, no worries.
Having looked at the later photos posted here, I now think the memorial is probably on the other side of the track from the actual accident site (I mean the track through the middle of the camp by the footy pitch).
I'm not sure if the second, wider track (from where the earlier photo was taken) was actually there in my time in Belize, the whole camp area from the aerial shot appears bigger than I remembered it. Sorry for any confusion caused - it was over 26 yrs ago in my case and dementia has probably now set in.
Having looked at the later photos posted here, I now think the memorial is probably on the other side of the track from the actual accident site (I mean the track through the middle of the camp by the footy pitch).
I'm not sure if the second, wider track (from where the earlier photo was taken) was actually there in my time in Belize, the whole camp area from the aerial shot appears bigger than I remembered it. Sorry for any confusion caused - it was over 26 yrs ago in my case and dementia has probably now set in.
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Shy:
It seems quite clear, (to me anyway), that the memorial is towards the left side of your first picture. I say that because, when compared with your second picture, the long building higher on the hill is clearly identifiable in both. The square is the memorial, the rectangle is the long building and the arrow is the direction the picture was taken, give or take a few degrees.
In fact, with all our failing memories, I think that the memorials location is the least difficult thing to deal with...
Mushroom:
Nice pictures... They confirm that the treelines really haven't changed - which in some ways surprises me yet in other ways doesn't. Either way i find it somewhat amazing...
The second two of them are at height, clearly from an aircraft. Can you remember the circumstances? (Coming in to land, taking off, which door, front seat - left or right). It would help me confirm my recollections that ladings/take-offs at Salamanca were almost always North/South oriented with the predominance being South to North. That would go a long way to placing the crash site where I believe it is... or not - which is fine too.
PS: I'm stealing copies for my personal collection - if you don't mind.
[EDIT]
Mushroom:
Never mind... as I was "stealing" the pictures I noticed the rotor blade in the top right of the first picture... They are a series taken as the aircraft took off and transitioned away from Salamanca. You were in the left door. The aircraft had landed from the south and was taking off towards the north. While not being statistically significant as far as sample sizes go it doesn't really prove anything but it helps a lot where old memories are concerned. Thanks...
[/EDIT]
It seems quite clear, (to me anyway), that the memorial is towards the left side of your first picture. I say that because, when compared with your second picture, the long building higher on the hill is clearly identifiable in both. The square is the memorial, the rectangle is the long building and the arrow is the direction the picture was taken, give or take a few degrees.
In fact, with all our failing memories, I think that the memorials location is the least difficult thing to deal with...
Mushroom:
Nice pictures... They confirm that the treelines really haven't changed - which in some ways surprises me yet in other ways doesn't. Either way i find it somewhat amazing...
The second two of them are at height, clearly from an aircraft. Can you remember the circumstances? (Coming in to land, taking off, which door, front seat - left or right). It would help me confirm my recollections that ladings/take-offs at Salamanca were almost always North/South oriented with the predominance being South to North. That would go a long way to placing the crash site where I believe it is... or not - which is fine too.
PS: I'm stealing copies for my personal collection - if you don't mind.
[EDIT]
Mushroom:
Never mind... as I was "stealing" the pictures I noticed the rotor blade in the top right of the first picture... They are a series taken as the aircraft took off and transitioned away from Salamanca. You were in the left door. The aircraft had landed from the south and was taking off towards the north. While not being statistically significant as far as sample sizes go it doesn't really prove anything but it helps a lot where old memories are concerned. Thanks...
[/EDIT]
Last edited by Airborne Aircrew; 9th Aug 2008 at 21:54.
Avoid imitations
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AA, Yes, I do agree that the accident site was in the treeline to the left of the picture you have annotated with the arrow, approximately in the position you marked with the red circle on your diagram.
I had mistakenly thought the photo of the memorial was taken from the track adjacent to the football field and the refuel hut, rather than the second outer track because former can't be seen in the photo of the memorial.
I had mistakenly thought the photo of the memorial was taken from the track adjacent to the football field and the refuel hut, rather than the second outer track because former can't be seen in the photo of the memorial.
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Airborne,
Yes you spotted the a/c must have been taking off. Not sure why I was in the left seat - I thought we never flew 2 pilots there? Maybe I was giving a guided tour to someone new.
Amazing how the memory fades.
Help yourself to the pictures - they are resized from larger tiff's. PM me if you need the originals.
Yes you spotted the a/c must have been taking off. Not sure why I was in the left seat - I thought we never flew 2 pilots there? Maybe I was giving a guided tour to someone new.
Amazing how the memory fades.
Help yourself to the pictures - they are resized from larger tiff's. PM me if you need the originals.
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Good work gents.
Yes, the memorial is where the arrow points to in the most recently posted photo.
We parked 2 Pumas on the track to the 2 o'clock of the memorial, as you view it on the photo. We approached from the north along the line of the track and departed to the south.
Yes, the memorial is where the arrow points to in the most recently posted photo.
We parked 2 Pumas on the track to the 2 o'clock of the memorial, as you view it on the photo. We approached from the north along the line of the track and departed to the south.
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Not sure why I was in the left seat
Perhaps you were the pilot accompanying a "new chap".
Another possibility is that by looking at the quality of your pictures I'd guess they weren't taken on the standard "happy snaps special". One could surmise you were a bit of a photo buff and simply went along for a ride and to take some pictures.
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Arrive wednesday.
Stay awake as long as possible. 'Aided' with copius ammounts of alcohol, which made you want to sleep even more. Get up at stupid oclock on thursday, (Body clock caption illuminated) followed by (RNF to a field T) night flying on your first in theatre sortie thursday evening. A local area famil thurs pm may have included laying and switching on the said "T".
Cacking yourself recovering the T before departure because everything in Belize bites or stings and it all appeared to have made the night lights its new home.
IIRC BGS was completed on the first monday after arrival, thus giving a few days and a Journeys End trip before undertaking one of the best tasklines of any SH aircraft, anywhere, anytime.
Stay awake as long as possible. 'Aided' with copius ammounts of alcohol, which made you want to sleep even more. Get up at stupid oclock on thursday, (Body clock caption illuminated) followed by (RNF to a field T) night flying on your first in theatre sortie thursday evening. A local area famil thurs pm may have included laying and switching on the said "T".
Cacking yourself recovering the T before departure because everything in Belize bites or stings and it all appeared to have made the night lights its new home.
IIRC BGS was completed on the first monday after arrival, thus giving a few days and a Journeys End trip before undertaking one of the best tasklines of any SH aircraft, anywhere, anytime.
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Anyone ot a date for the Annual reunion in the Smoke this year?
Last Friday in Nov same place same time same hangover the next day but just that little bit worse!!
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Tiger Mate
Dont think it was called RNF in those halcyon days of yore. Was'nt it just lovely old fashioned NF? A night sun approach into Cadenas Bottom was a bit 'A' Level as I recall.
I remember putting those T's out at 'No Name Airstrip' I swear I could hear things slithering in the grass.
Dont think it was called RNF in those halcyon days of yore. Was'nt it just lovely old fashioned NF? A night sun approach into Cadenas Bottom was a bit 'A' Level as I recall.
I remember putting those T's out at 'No Name Airstrip' I swear I could hear things slithering in the grass.
We did fly 2 pilots in Belize. We flew 1 Pilot 1 Crewman in UK and other places but in Belize in 76 it was definately 2 Pilots - I had the honour to be with Lex Brown & John Neighbour - both top bananas. In UK we Crewmen had a ball until the dreaded Nagivators turned up........
Stood me in good stead though, Tony Bolam taught me everything I know about........
Stood me in good stead though, Tony Bolam taught me everything I know about........
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Salamanca Memorial
Paul, I just visited the graves at Odiham for the first time today, its only taken me 33 years to find SAC Colin Egan, I was also on 230 Sqdn on the Regt Flight, my detachment at that time was NI whiles Colins was of course Belize. I never knew what happened as far as the funerals were concerned. Strangely I always thought that Colins family didnt want a military funeral so I assumed they buried him locally, he was originally from Romford I think. Anyhow, I just wanted to say I knew your father as well and Nigel Storey a couple of nice guys who kept up the banter when they wanted a 'Rock' to do something for them. I wasnt a best buddy with your Dad or anything like that, is just that it says volumes that I can picture Colin, Nigel Storey and your dad as if it was yesterday, whereas I can hardly remember any of the other Regt Lads at all. If there is a memorial at Odiham itself. I wouldnt mind seeing it either , if you are successful can you drop me a line? Maybe they have open days. My Email is [email protected] (it looks wrong but is right)
best regards
Chris.,
best regards
Chris.,
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Salamanca Memorial
Life is a series of Odd coincidences, I was serving on 230 at this time, by strange coincidence, a guy that works for me periodically says that he was in the Army over there at the time and he says the aircraft crashed about 300 yards into the Jungle. They had to dig the wreckage out. He may have just been generalising but I will ask him when he next comes in. They did take a while to sort things out after the crash, in my experience elsewhere stuff does get scattered. It does sound as though she went in pretty hard. I worked with 72, 33, and was actually on 230 sqdn, they were great times although morale was low due to rubbish wages, the Conservatives sorted that out with big pay rises, sadly I had already signed my notice by then.
Hi Paul, Sorry I've not got in contact recently, I'm presently doing my 'Borat' impression in Kazakhstan! Think I've uncovered the photos of Bolam senior trying to look serious at a pre-flight briefing at Odiham in '75.
Punchrock, we served on 230 together, no it's not Woolley or McCardle, but the other young Loadie who was always in trouble......
Punchrock, we served on 230 together, no it's not Woolley or McCardle, but the other young Loadie who was always in trouble......
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Salamanca Puma Crash Site Memorial
Hi Ewe.lander I'm sorry I'm not sure of everyone's pprune names but I think this is Al? sorry if I'm wrong.
Good to hear from you again and hope you are having a good time in Kazakhstan. Yes would be good to get any photos you have found, I'm really grateful you have carried on looking :-)
Cheers
Paul
[email protected]
Good to hear from you again and hope you are having a good time in Kazakhstan. Yes would be good to get any photos you have found, I'm really grateful you have carried on looking :-)
Cheers
Paul
[email protected]
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the other young Loadie who was always in trouble....
As CG says that cuts it down how? but you know these days I have trouble remembering my own name let alone all you guys! Now faces, thats different I look in the mirror every morning and yes its still me. I might stand a chance or remembering if you have a pic around those days., were you the loadie who put the fire out, when the wind blew a flare fired from a very pistol straight into the back of a Puma at Basingbourne? No I think that was Pauls dad, well anyway if you have a pic post it somewhere and i will see if the little grey cells remember your boat race.
Happy to talk about those times when I wasnt pissed, despite the fact some of the best occurred when i was!
Best regards
Chris, (Punchrock)
Happy to talk about those times when I wasnt pissed, despite the fact some of the best occurred when i was!
Best regards
Chris, (Punchrock)