ATPL Information
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fellas, this is a great thread with loads of good gouge.
Would someone happen to know the latest on the Bridging Package (BP) rumour? Is 1 Apr 09 going to be the end? If it is, by that date are you only required to:
- have started the BP?
- have completed the BP exam?
- have completed the BP + the 4 other exams?
- have BP + 4 exams + IR?
Would someone happen to know the latest on the Bridging Package (BP) rumour? Is 1 Apr 09 going to be the end? If it is, by that date are you only required to:
- have started the BP?
- have completed the BP exam?
- have completed the BP + the 4 other exams?
- have BP + 4 exams + IR?
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 107
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bump... ...and
Guys, this whole process takes way longer than you might imagine. (unless you want to put your entire life on hold!) You may need to allow up to 6 weeks leave to complete the process...! If there is any pick-up in the civilian market, it may be limited and competitive. You will need your frozen ATPL ready to go.
It may be the case that the courses you need begin to book up or that you get an ooa that messes up your plans. You may want to consider looking outside. In the current climate, I would recommend you are ready to jump as there may be a push!
In short, a word to the wise to get your s%£t in one sock, before it is too late.
If you want to keep things simple and the costs down, I would recommend the well trodden path through the superb Bristol GS and equally awesome Airways Flt Trg in Exeter.
They speak our language and know exactly what's needed - even filling in the forms for you and faxing them to Gatwick when you forget them! Doh!
Thanks to the above, and best of luck to all.
ic
Guys, this whole process takes way longer than you might imagine. (unless you want to put your entire life on hold!) You may need to allow up to 6 weeks leave to complete the process...! If there is any pick-up in the civilian market, it may be limited and competitive. You will need your frozen ATPL ready to go.
It may be the case that the courses you need begin to book up or that you get an ooa that messes up your plans. You may want to consider looking outside. In the current climate, I would recommend you are ready to jump as there may be a push!
In short, a word to the wise to get your s%£t in one sock, before it is too late.
If you want to keep things simple and the costs down, I would recommend the well trodden path through the superb Bristol GS and equally awesome Airways Flt Trg in Exeter.
They speak our language and know exactly what's needed - even filling in the forms for you and faxing them to Gatwick when you forget them! Doh!
Thanks to the above, and best of luck to all.
ic
Can someone provide a bit of an "idiot's guide" to go from zero to ATPL? I'm sitting on 1500-odd FJ hours, still a few years away from planning to jump, but I literally don't know where to start. What do I do first?
1. No-one is going to hold your hand towards a job in the civil world - it's dog-eat-dog these days. Fact.
2. See LASORS 2008 | Personnel Licensing | Safety Regulation and download the relevant sections, particularly Section D.
3. Accept the fact that, irrespective of your FJ time, anyone with the same time on ME aircraft will have a head start. 'ME' implying multi-engined multi-pilot aeroplanes (for simplicity) - 2 stick time in a Tornado is not 'multi-pilot' time as far as the CAA is concerned.
Basically, once you have 2000 hrs TT of which 1500 are PIC, things become easier for non-ME aeroplane pilots. You have to do a bridging 'theory' course and sit 5 exams, then do some flying on an MEP Class aeroplane to qualify for an IR and Class Rating.
LASORS explains all - and is free to download.
2. See LASORS 2008 | Personnel Licensing | Safety Regulation and download the relevant sections, particularly Section D.
3. Accept the fact that, irrespective of your FJ time, anyone with the same time on ME aircraft will have a head start. 'ME' implying multi-engined multi-pilot aeroplanes (for simplicity) - 2 stick time in a Tornado is not 'multi-pilot' time as far as the CAA is concerned.
Basically, once you have 2000 hrs TT of which 1500 are PIC, things become easier for non-ME aeroplane pilots. You have to do a bridging 'theory' course and sit 5 exams, then do some flying on an MEP Class aeroplane to qualify for an IR and Class Rating.
LASORS explains all - and is free to download.
To one and all yet to start their ATPL, BEagle's advice is succint but right on the nail. It was he who helped greatly in negotiating the current military dispensations with the CAA.
LASORS might be a pain in the arse to read and absorb, but you will be helping yourselves by doing so. Start now! The process of gaining a license is bureaucratic (form-filling galore, as well as beasting your wallet), requires some hard work (those blasted exams
) but it is substantially less of a hurdle than before the current dispensations (I did it in the previous, hard iteration 
).
Again, I say start now! It will take you far longer than you estimate (the rest of life gets in the way) and you will want to start testing and searching in the job market well before you actually leave the mob. Having, say, most of the ATPL requirements complete, but license not actually issued, is no susbstitute for actually having the damn thing in your hands - you won't get a second glance in the market without it.
I can vouch for Bristol Ground School, http://www.bristolgroundschool.eu , as mentioned elsewhere in this thread - they know what you need as a military aviator to get through the system. Alex Whittingham, who runs BGS, is an ex-RAF pilot himself, with a brain the size of a planet, and if his school can't get you through the exams, it is unlikely anyone could.
Your share of the MoD budget isn't going to get any better - make sure you are ready to jump (or cope with being pushed .....) and get the license done asap. Seriously.
Edited to add: Bristol.gs
This is a useful summary of the requirements for military pilots. Be sure to get the nitty-gritty from LASORS and the CAA for your own circumstances.
LASORS might be a pain in the arse to read and absorb, but you will be helping yourselves by doing so. Start now! The process of gaining a license is bureaucratic (form-filling galore, as well as beasting your wallet), requires some hard work (those blasted exams
) but it is substantially less of a hurdle than before the current dispensations (I did it in the previous, hard iteration ).Again, I say start now! It will take you far longer than you estimate (the rest of life gets in the way) and you will want to start testing and searching in the job market well before you actually leave the mob. Having, say, most of the ATPL requirements complete, but license not actually issued, is no susbstitute for actually having the damn thing in your hands - you won't get a second glance in the market without it.
I can vouch for Bristol Ground School, http://www.bristolgroundschool.eu , as mentioned elsewhere in this thread - they know what you need as a military aviator to get through the system. Alex Whittingham, who runs BGS, is an ex-RAF pilot himself, with a brain the size of a planet, and if his school can't get you through the exams, it is unlikely anyone could.
Your share of the MoD budget isn't going to get any better - make sure you are ready to jump (or cope with being pushed .....) and get the license done asap. Seriously.
Edited to add: Bristol.gs
This is a useful summary of the requirements for military pilots. Be sure to get the nitty-gritty from LASORS and the CAA for your own circumstances.
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Planet Moo Moo
Posts: 1,279
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For those looking at time frames.
Verrrrry tentative from BA will be possible recruitment towards the back end of 2011. Then looking at between 150-200 pilots.
The above from the training department rumour mill!
Also bear in mind that the hold pool had the water emptied and those unfortunate enough to be swimming at the time will have to re-apply.
Not sure where RAFCARS stands at the moment but I used it a fair few years back and it worked brilliantly for me.
Best of luck.
Verrrrry tentative from BA will be possible recruitment towards the back end of 2011. Then looking at between 150-200 pilots.
The above from the training department rumour mill!
Also bear in mind that the hold pool had the water emptied and those unfortunate enough to be swimming at the time will have to re-apply.
Not sure where RAFCARS stands at the moment but I used it a fair few years back and it worked brilliantly for me.
Best of luck.
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: north of barlu
Posts: 6,207
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dire state
The state of the civil market is dire at the moment and I can't see it improving for some time however the sooner you get the fATPL in your hot sticky little hand the better.
Once you do have the fATPL you should remember that the two bigest Lo-Co's in the UK have taken the selling of airline seats to mean they sell all the seats on the aircraft except the captains!
Both the big Lo-Co,s make a lot of money by selling the young and hopefull's of this world type ratings and line training, once the young Lady or Gent has the contracted hours under the belt the airline puts them in a hold pool, pays them only by the hour for flying and uses them as little as they can because they make more money training the next victim!
The fact that someone who is ex-RAF is most likely to be a very sharp pilot cutts no ice with the bean counters..............they can make more money from a 200 hour cadet.
Things are changing slowly because the banks are now not giving £100K loans to people for pilot training because of the number of people who are now insolvent due to the actions of the Lo-Co airlines but it will be some time before the pilot market recovers from this "pay to fly" stupidity.
Once you do have the fATPL you should remember that the two bigest Lo-Co's in the UK have taken the selling of airline seats to mean they sell all the seats on the aircraft except the captains!
Both the big Lo-Co,s make a lot of money by selling the young and hopefull's of this world type ratings and line training, once the young Lady or Gent has the contracted hours under the belt the airline puts them in a hold pool, pays them only by the hour for flying and uses them as little as they can because they make more money training the next victim!
The fact that someone who is ex-RAF is most likely to be a very sharp pilot cutts no ice with the bean counters..............they can make more money from a 200 hour cadet.
Things are changing slowly because the banks are now not giving £100K loans to people for pilot training because of the number of people who are now insolvent due to the actions of the Lo-Co airlines but it will be some time before the pilot market recovers from this "pay to fly" stupidity.
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Regaining Track
Posts: 109
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
JAR FCL-ATPL(A) Renewal for QSP
Having digested LASORS again as my ground tour looms quickly in the windscreen - I confess to being a little confused with respect to the whole IR currency that a military green rating gives you.
quote - "A QSP in current flying practice on any military aircraft type (aeroplane for re-issue of aeroplane licence and helicopter re-issue of helicopter licence) may have their licence re-issued by holding a valid medical certificate appropriate to the licence being re-issue." - LASORS 2008
My licence will expire in 2013 (during my staff black-hole) - as a consequence, I will NOT be in current fg practice and therefore UNABLE to renew my licence!!
This seems at odds with earlier statements to the effect that I get 5 yrs from my last mil IRT ! ?
Anyone got a view on this contradiction?
All replies appreciated.
quote - "A QSP in current flying practice on any military aircraft type (aeroplane for re-issue of aeroplane licence and helicopter re-issue of helicopter licence) may have their licence re-issued by holding a valid medical certificate appropriate to the licence being re-issue." - LASORS 2008
My licence will expire in 2013 (during my staff black-hole) - as a consequence, I will NOT be in current fg practice and therefore UNABLE to renew my licence!!
This seems at odds with earlier statements to the effect that I get 5 yrs from my last mil IRT ! ?
Anyone got a view on this contradiction?
All replies appreciated.
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 99
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sonic
Having just been through the IR treadmill, the way I understand it is as follows: When you complete the IR your military IR will keep it current. From the day your military IR expires, the clock starts ticking on your civy IR and you then have 5 years before you need to do a renewal which is 1 trip in a plane for some more fun NDB holds! I believe that the re-issue of the license itself is simply a matter of coughing up yet more money to the CAA, and it should't matter if you are current or not as anyone can renew a license any time.
I may be wrong, but in 3 weeks we may all be out of flying practice anyway!!
Having just been through the IR treadmill, the way I understand it is as follows: When you complete the IR your military IR will keep it current. From the day your military IR expires, the clock starts ticking on your civy IR and you then have 5 years before you need to do a renewal which is 1 trip in a plane for some more fun NDB holds! I believe that the re-issue of the license itself is simply a matter of coughing up yet more money to the CAA, and it should't matter if you are current or not as anyone can renew a license any time.
I may be wrong, but in 3 weeks we may all be out of flying practice anyway!!
Sonic
Get yourself spammed up to fly a bug smasher and then keep your licence ticking over. Lots of cheap flying to be had here:
RAF Flying Clubs' Association (RAFFCA) - Homepage
LJ
Get yourself spammed up to fly a bug smasher and then keep your licence ticking over. Lots of cheap flying to be had here:
RAF Flying Clubs' Association (RAFFCA) - Homepage
LJ
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Regaining Track
Posts: 109
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
B&Y - thanks. There is something called the 60 day rule which means you cannot apply for a licence renewal until 60 days prior to licence expiry (LASORS)
As for the 5 year period - the licence is only valid for 5 years and in addition to having a valid medical (appropriate to licence), LASORS talks about a valid Certificate of Test, Certificate of Experience or Certificate of Revalidation for any type/class rating that has not expired by more than 5 years.
I guess it boils down to whether the military IR counts as one of the Certificates above for a QSP - in which case you get 5 yrs from last Mil IRT. Not sure.
Of course if you are in current mil fg practice - you are squared either way for the renewal. My concern is not being in current fg practice at the time of the 60 day renewal window - in which case I may have to try and get an SEP rating and get back in a Cessna
As for the 5 year period - the licence is only valid for 5 years and in addition to having a valid medical (appropriate to licence), LASORS talks about a valid Certificate of Test, Certificate of Experience or Certificate of Revalidation for any type/class rating that has not expired by more than 5 years.
I guess it boils down to whether the military IR counts as one of the Certificates above for a QSP - in which case you get 5 yrs from last Mil IRT. Not sure.
Of course if you are in current mil fg practice - you are squared either way for the renewal. My concern is not being in current fg practice at the time of the 60 day renewal window - in which case I may have to try and get an SEP rating and get back in a Cessna
EASA and military pilot credits....
Contrary to earlier assurances from the CAA, I have just seen this from Flight Crew Licensing:
The €urocratic lunacy of EASA might pose a risk as FCL state; however, this is far from certain. So I wouldn't panic - but I would recommend anyone capable of doing so to secure an ATPL before April 2012 when this €uro-stupidity comes into effect.
However, military pilot accreditation was primarily introduced as a recruiting and retention incentive. So it behoves whoever is left at whatever passes for Learning Command these days to ensure that the 'report' is well crafted and not subject to the usual British reserve or understatement.
But, in an era when even experienced ME co-pilots are having to 'hours build' on spamcans because they don't have the 70 hrs PIC required for CPL issue, I can only hope that the current LASORS D3.3 terms are not eroded.
The regulation that brings Part-FCL into force will include provision for military pilots to be given credit for military training and experience when making application to the national authority (of the State for whom they serve) for EASA licences. However, the terms must be established by compiling a report that compares the military training with Part FCL and identifies the additional training and experience required for military pilots to comply with Part FCL. This report, together with the proposed crediting terms must be agreed by EASA. There is therefore no guarantee that the existing UK terms for Qualified Service Pilots as set out in LASORS will continue beyond the date that Part-FCL becomes mandatory.
However, military pilot accreditation was primarily introduced as a recruiting and retention incentive. So it behoves whoever is left at whatever passes for Learning Command these days to ensure that the 'report' is well crafted and not subject to the usual British reserve or understatement.
But, in an era when even experienced ME co-pilots are having to 'hours build' on spamcans because they don't have the 70 hrs PIC required for CPL issue, I can only hope that the current LASORS D3.3 terms are not eroded.
And those of us with national (CAA) ATPLs will be required to part with wonga, and change those licenses for EASA ATPLs as part of the great bureaucratic bull**** that is 'Part-FCL'. Ho-£$%^&-hum! 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 107
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bump... Guys this is what you need.
Mods, Could I request this thread becomes a sticky? We're in uncharted territory for military pilots. There's the triple whammy of redundancies, licence changes and a recession outside. Clearly this thread could help resettlement.
Licence changes:
http://www.pprune.org/military-aircr...il-2012-a.html
Thank-you Alex for the heads-up to licencing changes. Bristol Ground School are awesome and totally understand the military pilots' requirements.
Bristol.gs
Airways Flt Training equally understand the massively varied requirements that individual service pilots needed to make the jump.
Airways Flight Training - Exeter
Check post #62 for some timescales.
**Finally, it may be worth knowing that you can no longer get an initial issue Class-1 CAA medical from a friendly service doc. It costs over £300 and must be done at the CAA HQ, Gatwick.**
Good luck and don't leave it too late. The selection process for airlines can be pretty time consuming - you may wish to allow for this.
iC
Mods, Could I request this thread becomes a sticky? We're in uncharted territory for military pilots. There's the triple whammy of redundancies, licence changes and a recession outside. Clearly this thread could help resettlement.
Licence changes:
http://www.pprune.org/military-aircr...il-2012-a.html
Thank-you Alex for the heads-up to licencing changes. Bristol Ground School are awesome and totally understand the military pilots' requirements.
Bristol.gs
Airways Flt Training equally understand the massively varied requirements that individual service pilots needed to make the jump.
Airways Flight Training - Exeter
Check post #62 for some timescales.
**Finally, it may be worth knowing that you can no longer get an initial issue Class-1 CAA medical from a friendly service doc. It costs over £300 and must be done at the CAA HQ, Gatwick.**
Good luck and don't leave it too late. The selection process for airlines can be pretty time consuming - you may wish to allow for this.
iC
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Regaining Track
Posts: 109
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
JAR-FCL ATPL(A) Renewals and EASA
bump!
I thought this might be of interest:
I recently emailed the CAA iot get some clarification wrt licence renewal with EASA around the corner and a ground tour on the horizon! I was concerned about renewing my licence under EASA with expired ratings (LASORS give you up to a max of 5 yrs expiry on these for licence re-issue).
Here is what they sent back:
You currently hold a JAR-FCL ATPL(A).
New European regulations are expected to come into force with effect
from 8th April 2012. As part of the transitional arrangements within the
proposed legislation all JAR-FCL licences will become EASA (European
Aviation Safety Agency) licences on 8th April 2012. EASA licences are
non-expiring. Licences that were issued as JAR licences will have to
replaced with EASA licences by the National Aviation Authorities (such
as the CAA), but the existing JAR requirements for renewal will not
apply.
However, the existing QSP arrangements will also cease on 8th April
2012. There is provision under the new European legislation for credit
to be given for military training and experience but this must be
justified by comparing the military training with the new European
requirements and providing a report that is acceptable to the European
Aviation Safety Agency. It is not clear at this time whether that will
be achieved by April 2012. There may therefore be a period of time
during which no credit can be given for military flying, including being
in current flying practice.
I would suggest that you should apply for your licence to be replaced by
an EASA licence as soon as possible after 8th April 2012, but it is
unclear at this time what the situation will be if your licence has no
current and valid ratings when you apply for replacement. Hopefully we
will resolve this (and many other matters) with EASA before April 2012.
I thought this might be of interest:
I recently emailed the CAA iot get some clarification wrt licence renewal with EASA around the corner and a ground tour on the horizon! I was concerned about renewing my licence under EASA with expired ratings (LASORS give you up to a max of 5 yrs expiry on these for licence re-issue).
Here is what they sent back:
You currently hold a JAR-FCL ATPL(A).
New European regulations are expected to come into force with effect
from 8th April 2012. As part of the transitional arrangements within the
proposed legislation all JAR-FCL licences will become EASA (European
Aviation Safety Agency) licences on 8th April 2012. EASA licences are
non-expiring. Licences that were issued as JAR licences will have to
replaced with EASA licences by the National Aviation Authorities (such
as the CAA), but the existing JAR requirements for renewal will not
apply.
However, the existing QSP arrangements will also cease on 8th April
2012. There is provision under the new European legislation for credit
to be given for military training and experience but this must be
justified by comparing the military training with the new European
requirements and providing a report that is acceptable to the European
Aviation Safety Agency. It is not clear at this time whether that will
be achieved by April 2012. There may therefore be a period of time
during which no credit can be given for military flying, including being
in current flying practice.
I would suggest that you should apply for your licence to be replaced by
an EASA licence as soon as possible after 8th April 2012, but it is
unclear at this time what the situation will be if your licence has no
current and valid ratings when you apply for replacement. Hopefully we
will resolve this (and many other matters) with EASA before April 2012.
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Puken
Posts: 358
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SS,
from what I understand, if you get a SEP Class Rating on your ATPL and keep flying GA types, then your licence will still be 'current and valid'.
All you'd need then for gainful employment (i.e commercial jets) is a Type Rating which hopefully your next employer will pay for.
Again, just my understanding.......
from what I understand, if you get a SEP Class Rating on your ATPL and keep flying GA types, then your licence will still be 'current and valid'.
All you'd need then for gainful employment (i.e commercial jets) is a Type Rating which hopefully your next employer will pay for.
Again, just my understanding.......
Last edited by Farfrompuken; 28th Jan 2011 at 19:11.
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Puken
Posts: 358
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm suspecting there won't be too much urgency for the RAF to pursue accreditation for QSPs to gain EASA ATPLs as I'm pretty sure there is concern over future Pilot manning levels; I don't, however, see much to encourage people to consider remaining beyond option points or not PVRing.
FRI anyone??
FRI anyone??
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: not at home
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
help please military to atpl simple question
Could somebody please help me. This business of military liceince exemptions (or lack thereof) after Apr 2012...
Does this apply only to those with 2000+ hrs who are trying to gain the 'free' ATPL?
what about those with less than this who do the full groundschool package and then finance an IRT in a suitable twin.
doubtless you can guess that I fall in the latter bracket with around 1500 total, 400 captain. 1300 heavy jet.
I am just about to start an ATPL course but I think its a tall order to do the whole lot and an IRT before Apr 2012. what happens if I don't? Am I then in the same position as a guy off the street with no flying experience? Should I therefore save my pennies, not bother and look for a job at truckmaster?
thanks in advance
Does this apply only to those with 2000+ hrs who are trying to gain the 'free' ATPL?
what about those with less than this who do the full groundschool package and then finance an IRT in a suitable twin.
doubtless you can guess that I fall in the latter bracket with around 1500 total, 400 captain. 1300 heavy jet.
I am just about to start an ATPL course but I think its a tall order to do the whole lot and an IRT before Apr 2012. what happens if I don't? Am I then in the same position as a guy off the street with no flying experience? Should I therefore save my pennies, not bother and look for a job at truckmaster?
thanks in advance