ATPL Information
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Thanks all. Very useful stuff, I appreciate it. Obviously every answer raises 2 more questions! Apart from the BA managed path deal, I am assuming 20 months before I can work for them and no licence is too early for other airlines - particularly Netjets and Virgin?
Lasors link: http://www.caa.co.uk/application.asp...detail&id=1591
Long document but well laid out and pretty clear.
Lasors link: http://www.caa.co.uk/application.asp...detail&id=1591
Long document but well laid out and pretty clear.
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Thanks guys for all the advice..
Basically I am very happy in the service at the moment but thinking seriously about options if career doesn't move in the right direction in next 12 months.
On the face of it I suspect the more flexible and varied nature of NetJets will suit me more than scheduled airline work. Happy with the 5 days on the road nature of the work as well. Swifter time to command is a big attraction for me as well, I don't like the idea of being stuck in the RHS irrespective of ability for x number of years because of seniority constraints.
I would be interested to hear of ex-Mil experience of life in NetJets vs Airline etc.....
Hope this forum remains applicable to my inquiry.
Basically I am very happy in the service at the moment but thinking seriously about options if career doesn't move in the right direction in next 12 months.
On the face of it I suspect the more flexible and varied nature of NetJets will suit me more than scheduled airline work. Happy with the 5 days on the road nature of the work as well. Swifter time to command is a big attraction for me as well, I don't like the idea of being stuck in the RHS irrespective of ability for x number of years because of seniority constraints.
I would be interested to hear of ex-Mil experience of life in NetJets vs Airline etc.....
Hope this forum remains applicable to my inquiry.
An additional bit of info, if you get military credits for exams, a JAR ATPL issued with credits may only be useful in a JAR member state. Some other agencies will not issue a validation on a licence with credits. For example, the Hong Kong Civil Aviation Department want to see a list of exams taken with pass marks. Creidts are not good enough, and you will have to take the relevant exams in Hong Kong. One or two pilots slipped through the net when credits were first being given, but these are exceptions.
Something to bear in mind if your aim is to work overseas.
Something to bear in mind if your aim is to work overseas.
Dan - the last time I spoke with the relevant bod at the CAA he assured me that your HK mob had now been put right about this.
That was a couple of years ago now, so I don't know what the current state of play is.
The JAR-FCL ATPL(A) is lawful within JAA-land airlines whether or not it was obtained with theory credits for military service. It is licence conversion which may prove difficult; if you wish to fly for non-EU airlines then check first!
That was a couple of years ago now, so I don't know what the current state of play is.
The JAR-FCL ATPL(A) is lawful within JAA-land airlines whether or not it was obtained with theory credits for military service. It is licence conversion which may prove difficult; if you wish to fly for non-EU airlines then check first!
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Beags,
If you try and apply to Cathay online, they ask on the website whether you have passed all the ATPL exams, if you cannot tick yes to this box, the application will not go any further, so I cannot see a way around this.
Unless someone else from HK can help?
Thanks
If you try and apply to Cathay online, they ask on the website whether you have passed all the ATPL exams, if you cannot tick yes to this box, the application will not go any further, so I cannot see a way around this.
Unless someone else from HK can help?
Thanks
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Cathay
Beags said: "There is some doubt about whether the HK mob will accept 'fATPLs' obtained with theory credit still".
I've recently been in touch with a Cathay training captain who told me that the airline is accepting ex-FJ guys on the back of the mil bridge package.
Good thread, this - lots of gen rather than the normal ranting.
GnP
I've recently been in touch with a Cathay training captain who told me that the airline is accepting ex-FJ guys on the back of the mil bridge package.
Good thread, this - lots of gen rather than the normal ranting.
GnP
Get cracking NOW!
WannaBeCiv,
Bristol Groundschool: I believe, as I have said many times before, that this place is unbeatable for military guys wanting to pass the ATPL exams. Alex Whittingham and team are masters at teaching you how to pass the exams. Sure, you will learn useful stuff on the way to that goal, but you won't dwell unnecessessarily on trivia getting to that point (although the exams do contain a lot of trivia you will never see or hear of again).
I can't help feeling that having ALL the requirements met before applying for jobs makes it much easier for those prospective employers to gauge what/who you are. Without the ATPL in your sticky mitts, you may be viewed as no better than an enthusiastic aviation buff who might get job as a pilot ...... some day. IMHO.
If you are only 2 years from ejecting from the RAF then you have left yourself some work to do. Prepare yourself mentally for some hard work. You need to arrange all the 'bits' that people have mentioned here as well as apply for potential jobs and ramp-up for the whole leaving the RAF thing. You are going to experience stress, I think. I had my license sorted and issued 3 years before my exit date but the last year alone, with job apps, resettlement, renew IRT and Class 1 Med, leaving RAF etc etc was quite a rollercoaster. Get cracking with it NOW! Just because your CV gets out there does not mean prospective employers will come back to you by next return of post. I had 2 offers for interviews from major far east companies nearly a year after making the applications ....... and I had already been in employment with a UK major for several months!
Bristol Groundschool: I believe, as I have said many times before, that this place is unbeatable for military guys wanting to pass the ATPL exams. Alex Whittingham and team are masters at teaching you how to pass the exams. Sure, you will learn useful stuff on the way to that goal, but you won't dwell unnecessessarily on trivia getting to that point (although the exams do contain a lot of trivia you will never see or hear of again).
I can't help feeling that having ALL the requirements met before applying for jobs makes it much easier for those prospective employers to gauge what/who you are. Without the ATPL in your sticky mitts, you may be viewed as no better than an enthusiastic aviation buff who might get job as a pilot ...... some day. IMHO.
If you are only 2 years from ejecting from the RAF then you have left yourself some work to do. Prepare yourself mentally for some hard work. You need to arrange all the 'bits' that people have mentioned here as well as apply for potential jobs and ramp-up for the whole leaving the RAF thing. You are going to experience stress, I think. I had my license sorted and issued 3 years before my exit date but the last year alone, with job apps, resettlement, renew IRT and Class 1 Med, leaving RAF etc etc was quite a rollercoaster. Get cracking with it NOW! Just because your CV gets out there does not mean prospective employers will come back to you by next return of post. I had 2 offers for interviews from major far east companies nearly a year after making the applications ....... and I had already been in employment with a UK major for several months!
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As I have now had a resettlement briefing, I will add some info that others may find useful:
1. A gotcha for Sqn Ldrs - 38/16 is only an option point not an exit point, so unless you officially declare that you are definitely leaving, then you cannot technically get any resettlement benefits. Most resettlement staff seem to use a bit of common sense and judgement on this one. Not a problem for Flt Lts as it is an exit point.
2. I think that the best approach for paying for stuff is:
a. Ground school (Bristol gone up to Ł820, btw) pay using Ł534 resettlement grant (Individual Refund of Training Costs grant). For the exams (4 @ Ł62 each) you can use SLCs (max Ł175/year), as well as claim the travel, subsistence and accom if required.
b. IR - pay using ELCs (Ł1000 if before 1 Apr 08, Ł2000 after) - if it is an "approved" cse - I assume Exeter is? Also can claim travel, subsistence and accom.
c. MCC as for IR, but must be in next financial year to use ELCs again. Anyone know if any courses are MOD "approved"?
3. For any time you are away, you can use Graduated Resettlement Time (GRT - 35 days for 38/16 people), so you are "on duty".
Hope this is helpful, it is correct to the best of my knowledge - but ensure you check everything yourself before commiting money or making career changing decisions!
1. A gotcha for Sqn Ldrs - 38/16 is only an option point not an exit point, so unless you officially declare that you are definitely leaving, then you cannot technically get any resettlement benefits. Most resettlement staff seem to use a bit of common sense and judgement on this one. Not a problem for Flt Lts as it is an exit point.
2. I think that the best approach for paying for stuff is:
a. Ground school (Bristol gone up to Ł820, btw) pay using Ł534 resettlement grant (Individual Refund of Training Costs grant). For the exams (4 @ Ł62 each) you can use SLCs (max Ł175/year), as well as claim the travel, subsistence and accom if required.
b. IR - pay using ELCs (Ł1000 if before 1 Apr 08, Ł2000 after) - if it is an "approved" cse - I assume Exeter is? Also can claim travel, subsistence and accom.
c. MCC as for IR, but must be in next financial year to use ELCs again. Anyone know if any courses are MOD "approved"?
3. For any time you are away, you can use Graduated Resettlement Time (GRT - 35 days for 38/16 people), so you are "on duty".
Hope this is helpful, it is correct to the best of my knowledge - but ensure you check everything yourself before commiting money or making career changing decisions!
Airways Flight Training at Exeter is listed as an ELCAS-registered 'provider':
http://www.enhancedlearningcredits.c...ct=3&Submit=Go
http://www.enhancedlearningcredits.c...ct=3&Submit=Go
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For the IR, Multiflight at Leeds are also accredited for ELCs. Trap for players - make sure you go through your resettlement advisors for every step of the booking process or you will almost certainly mess up the onerous paperwork & invalidate your claim for wonga under ELC.
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Paperwork
Just got my Bridging exam results today 
I think that I have got all the info on the paperwork required to send off to the CAA.
See list below from Form SRG1130 http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/FORSRG1130.PDF
Has anyone got any top tips on presentation of logbooks or has anyone come across any pitfalls in the application process or had paperwork denied etc?
Regards,
Bayete
Link to forms here http://www.caa.co.uk/application.asp...pe=subcat&id=8
Extract from SRG1130:
To apply for a JAR-FCL CPL(A) or ATPL(A) you should enclose the following documentation; failure to submit all of the required
documentation may lead to a delay in the processing of your application.
i) Form FCL 508 (SRG\1106) ‘Flight Radio Telephony Operator’s Licence – Grant or Renewal Application’.
• Complete Sections 1 and 7 only
ii) Valid UK JAR-FCL Class One Medical Certificate. Holders of a JAR-FCL Class One Medical Certificate issued by another JAA Member
State should either contact the CAA Aeromedical Centre at Gatwick or refer to the CAA website www.caa.co.uk for details on
acceptability and mutual recognition.
• Validity must be sufficient to cover the anticipated licence issue date.
iii) Evidence of Identity.
• Passport or Birth Certificate only. Photocopies are acceptable provided that the relevant information is clearly presented and
certified by OC Flying/Squadron Commander.
iv) Copy of theoretical examination result(s)
v) Form FCL 172 ‘Application and Report Form for the CPL(A) Skill Test’ (if applicable)
vi) Form FCL 173 (SRG\1170) ‘Application and Report Form for the Instrument Rating Flight Test’.
vii) Form LST/LPC SPA/MPA (SRG\1119)
viii) All flying logbooks
• Service Pilots are not normally required to submit Service logbooks provided this form is countersigned by the Commanding Officer
at Section 10, but may be requested to do so. All civilian logbooks must accompany this application.
• If actual Service logbooks are not submitted, applicants must forward copies of their Service logbook showing evidence of a current
aircraft annual check flight, end of ME or FW OCU summary (as appropriate) most recent montly flying summary, pilot qualifications
page and instrument rating page. All copies must be certified as true copies by the applicant’s Commanding Officer. A Unit seal or
stamp must cover the Commanding Officer’s signature.
I think that I have got all the info on the paperwork required to send off to the CAA.
See list below from Form SRG1130 http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/FORSRG1130.PDF
Has anyone got any top tips on presentation of logbooks or has anyone come across any pitfalls in the application process or had paperwork denied etc?
Regards,
Bayete
Link to forms here http://www.caa.co.uk/application.asp...pe=subcat&id=8
Extract from SRG1130:
To apply for a JAR-FCL CPL(A) or ATPL(A) you should enclose the following documentation; failure to submit all of the required
documentation may lead to a delay in the processing of your application.
i) Form FCL 508 (SRG\1106) ‘Flight Radio Telephony Operator’s Licence – Grant or Renewal Application’.
• Complete Sections 1 and 7 only
ii) Valid UK JAR-FCL Class One Medical Certificate. Holders of a JAR-FCL Class One Medical Certificate issued by another JAA Member
State should either contact the CAA Aeromedical Centre at Gatwick or refer to the CAA website www.caa.co.uk for details on
acceptability and mutual recognition.
• Validity must be sufficient to cover the anticipated licence issue date.
iii) Evidence of Identity.
• Passport or Birth Certificate only. Photocopies are acceptable provided that the relevant information is clearly presented and
certified by OC Flying/Squadron Commander.
iv) Copy of theoretical examination result(s)
v) Form FCL 172 ‘Application and Report Form for the CPL(A) Skill Test’ (if applicable)
vi) Form FCL 173 (SRG\1170) ‘Application and Report Form for the Instrument Rating Flight Test’.
vii) Form LST/LPC SPA/MPA (SRG\1119)
viii) All flying logbooks
• Service Pilots are not normally required to submit Service logbooks provided this form is countersigned by the Commanding Officer
at Section 10, but may be requested to do so. All civilian logbooks must accompany this application.
• If actual Service logbooks are not submitted, applicants must forward copies of their Service logbook showing evidence of a current
aircraft annual check flight, end of ME or FW OCU summary (as appropriate) most recent montly flying summary, pilot qualifications
page and instrument rating page. All copies must be certified as true copies by the applicant’s Commanding Officer. A Unit seal or
stamp must cover the Commanding Officer’s signature.
I followed this procedure and received my ATPL about 2 weeks later:
Service Pilots are not normally required to submit Service logbooks provided this form is countersigned by the Commanding Officer
at Section 10, but may be requested to do so. All civilian logbooks must accompany this application.
• If actual Service logbooks are not submitted, applicants must forward copies of their Service logbook showing evidence of a current
aircraft annual check flight, end of ME or FW OCU summary (as appropriate) most recent montly flying summary, pilot qualifications
page and instrument rating page. All copies must be certified as true copies by the applicant’s Commanding Officer. A Unit seal or
stamp must cover the Commanding Officer’s signature.
There was a question about my 'annual check' as my unit conducted this every 18mths but the CAA sorted it out.
Service Pilots are not normally required to submit Service logbooks provided this form is countersigned by the Commanding Officer
at Section 10, but may be requested to do so. All civilian logbooks must accompany this application.
• If actual Service logbooks are not submitted, applicants must forward copies of their Service logbook showing evidence of a current
aircraft annual check flight, end of ME or FW OCU summary (as appropriate) most recent montly flying summary, pilot qualifications
page and instrument rating page. All copies must be certified as true copies by the applicant’s Commanding Officer. A Unit seal or
stamp must cover the Commanding Officer’s signature.
There was a question about my 'annual check' as my unit conducted this every 18mths but the CAA sorted it out.
Boinggggg - for those who were looking for this.
Interestingly, NetJets now seem to be offering cadetships to the right people. As a result, some who would otherwise have joined the RAF have decided to apply for such cadetships. Mainly because:
The aircraft are less than 40 years old; I'm told the average is < 2 yrs old
The management care for the employees' interests
When away ovrnight, it's in hotels in nice places, not tents in desert $hitholes
The company accepts that people have normal life aspirations
See http://www.oxfordaviation.net/netjets/nj_info.htm
Interestingly, NetJets now seem to be offering cadetships to the right people. As a result, some who would otherwise have joined the RAF have decided to apply for such cadetships. Mainly because:
The aircraft are less than 40 years old; I'm told the average is < 2 yrs old
The management care for the employees' interests
When away ovrnight, it's in hotels in nice places, not tents in desert $hitholes
The company accepts that people have normal life aspirations
See http://www.oxfordaviation.net/netjets/nj_info.htm
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Can someone (you there BEagle?) confirm/correct me on my understanding of validity of exam passes etc?
Once you have passed all the exams, they are valid for 3 years, so need to apply for a CPL/IR within that time, otherwise need to do some/all again.
Once you have done your IR and got your CPL/IR ("frozen" ATPL) then they are valid for 7 years. Presumably if you haven't upgraded to ATPL by that time you have to do some/all again?
Lastly the probably unanswerable question - how will this be affected by the change from CAA to JAA for FCL?
Thanks
Once you have passed all the exams, they are valid for 3 years, so need to apply for a CPL/IR within that time, otherwise need to do some/all again.
Once you have done your IR and got your CPL/IR ("frozen" ATPL) then they are valid for 7 years. Presumably if you haven't upgraded to ATPL by that time you have to do some/all again?
Lastly the probably unanswerable question - how will this be affected by the change from CAA to JAA for FCL?
Thanks
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I am sure BEagle knows all those answers, but most of them can be found in Lasors 2007, if you google it, it will help you out.
I cannot remember all the answers myself, sorry.
I cannot remember all the answers myself, sorry.
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The information in my post is from my interpretation of LASORS 2007 (sadly I have it bookmarked!) - but like all these documents it is not particularly clear or well defined.
WBC,
I don't think that is correct. An ATPL is valid for 5 years from date of issue. I got mine license issued 3 years before leaving the RAF, and 2 years into being employed in civvie street I had to renew it.
Check carefully on the:
Make sure it isn't 'have license issued within 3 years', as opposed to 'applied for'.
Be very wary about thinking that you have plenty of time in those 3 years to get it done. You'll get distracted and suddenly find that you are in a stressed out rush! Don't go there - the 'system' can be tardy so do it all at earliest opportunity, really!
Class 1 medical examinations, for 40 year-olds and over, used to be only vaild for 6 months, but someone saw sense and extended it to 12 months (again?). Get yourself a medical to have the license issued, and if you're not fussed, let it lapse (within the restrictions mentioned by BEagle and others) until you're ready to start doing the job apps. Get another up to date medical exam and IR, and you should be 'fresh' to hit the market. Although, you may find an annual Class 1 (and IR?), whilst still in the RAF, to be no burden - your choice.
But start applying for jobs earlier rather than later - you'll be surprised how slow some of the responses can be. As I wrote in an earlier posting on this thread "I had 2 offers for interviews from major far east companies nearly a year after making the applications ....... and I had already been in employment with a UK major for several months!"
Once you have done your IR and got your CPL/IR ("frozen" ATPL) then they are valid for 7 years.
Check carefully on the:
Once you have passed all the exams, they are valid for 3 years, so need to apply for a CPL/IR within that time, otherwise need to do some/all again.
Be very wary about thinking that you have plenty of time in those 3 years to get it done. You'll get distracted and suddenly find that you are in a stressed out rush! Don't go there - the 'system' can be tardy so do it all at earliest opportunity, really!
Class 1 medical examinations, for 40 year-olds and over, used to be only vaild for 6 months, but someone saw sense and extended it to 12 months (again?). Get yourself a medical to have the license issued, and if you're not fussed, let it lapse (within the restrictions mentioned by BEagle and others) until you're ready to start doing the job apps. Get another up to date medical exam and IR, and you should be 'fresh' to hit the market. Although, you may find an annual Class 1 (and IR?), whilst still in the RAF, to be no burden - your choice.
But start applying for jobs earlier rather than later - you'll be surprised how slow some of the responses can be. As I wrote in an earlier posting on this thread "I had 2 offers for interviews from major far east companies nearly a year after making the applications ....... and I had already been in employment with a UK major for several months!"
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Having left 5 years ago after a mostly FJ career, I can assure you that there is such a shortage of pilots globally, that you should have little difficulty finding a job. Out here in HKG, all 5 airlines are looking for folk - however, as a previous reply stated, do look very carefully at all aspects of a job offer, particularly if you are considering a move overseas.
If you are interested in HKG, check out the Fragrant Harbour Forums - all is not sweetness and light out here at the moment! However, you will find a very large number of ex-RAF FJ pilots at both CX and KA: both are recruiting but both Companies have big issues with rostering and pay.
When I left, there were no exemptions granted to military pilots, but I know guys in both companies who have joined within the last 6 months with recently issued JAR licences.
If you are interested in HKG, check out the Fragrant Harbour Forums - all is not sweetness and light out here at the moment! However, you will find a very large number of ex-RAF FJ pilots at both CX and KA: both are recruiting but both Companies have big issues with rostering and pay.
When I left, there were no exemptions granted to military pilots, but I know guys in both companies who have joined within the last 6 months with recently issued JAR licences.
In simple aircrew terms, you must apply for your CPL/IR within 36 months from the end of the month in which you gained a full pass in the ATPL exams.
Once you have the CPL, the exams remain valid for ATPL issue for a period of 7 years after the date of the most recent IR revalidation.
Don't try to be a clever clogs and hedge your chances! If you want the security of a CPL/IR, don't do it earlier than is reasonably sensible. You may be lucky and be able to claim exmption on the grounds of a recent military IR qualifiction, but Sod's Law says you'll be on a ground tour and might then have to do all the exams again if you go over the 7 year limit.
Regarding validity periods, licences and ratings are different. A JAR-FCL licence of whatever breed has to be re-issued every 5 years. Whereas the different Class, Type and IR have individual validity periods - as do other ratings.
For example, my ATPL is valid for 5 years, my UK IMC Rating is valid for 25 months from date of test, my FI Rating is valid for 3 years, my SEP Class Rating for 2 years and my Examiner authorisation for 3 years - but not the same 3 years as the FI Rating!
No real snag for people in the airlines, as their routine LPCs take care of both IR and Type Rating revalidation requirements. But licence re-issue is easily overlooked; in more enlightened days the CAA BCPL, CPL or ATPL was valid for 10, not 5 years - and the PPL was, of course, a lifetime licence.
Once you have the CPL, the exams remain valid for ATPL issue for a period of 7 years after the date of the most recent IR revalidation.
Don't try to be a clever clogs and hedge your chances! If you want the security of a CPL/IR, don't do it earlier than is reasonably sensible. You may be lucky and be able to claim exmption on the grounds of a recent military IR qualifiction, but Sod's Law says you'll be on a ground tour and might then have to do all the exams again if you go over the 7 year limit.
Regarding validity periods, licences and ratings are different. A JAR-FCL licence of whatever breed has to be re-issued every 5 years. Whereas the different Class, Type and IR have individual validity periods - as do other ratings.
For example, my ATPL is valid for 5 years, my UK IMC Rating is valid for 25 months from date of test, my FI Rating is valid for 3 years, my SEP Class Rating for 2 years and my Examiner authorisation for 3 years - but not the same 3 years as the FI Rating!
No real snag for people in the airlines, as their routine LPCs take care of both IR and Type Rating revalidation requirements. But licence re-issue is easily overlooked; in more enlightened days the CAA BCPL, CPL or ATPL was valid for 10, not 5 years - and the PPL was, of course, a lifetime licence.