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MM and TSM
I apologies sincerely for I am just a thick groundy and bow down to your officer qualities and superiority.
I know nothing of the Nimrod big picture, I only know my name and service number and that is it.
Oh how glad I am to have such great and inspirational men as you leading me cause I is stoopid.
Where do I work again......................
I apologies sincerely for I am just a thick groundy and bow down to your officer qualities and superiority.
I know nothing of the Nimrod big picture, I only know my name and service number and that is it.
Oh how glad I am to have such great and inspirational men as you leading me cause I is stoopid.
Where do I work again......................
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Lincs
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MHAge
I have read every last thing you have written on these forums, and never cease to be dissapointed at the attitude you take.
My last post was a bit tongue-in-cheek simply because I hadn't posted for a while, but you really must stop this silly attitude you have towards anyone who even remotely questions what you say mate. Look at it as people not 'questioning' you but perhaps seeking further clarification or something.
I, like all aircrew, have the utmost respect for groundcrew. OK, we take the pi$$, but are you that insecure of yourself that you can't see that??
Come on man, chill out a little, and put all those years of experience to some good here. We're not having a go at you at all.
Kind regards
TSM
I have read every last thing you have written on these forums, and never cease to be dissapointed at the attitude you take.
My last post was a bit tongue-in-cheek simply because I hadn't posted for a while, but you really must stop this silly attitude you have towards anyone who even remotely questions what you say mate. Look at it as people not 'questioning' you but perhaps seeking further clarification or something.
I, like all aircrew, have the utmost respect for groundcrew. OK, we take the pi$$, but are you that insecure of yourself that you can't see that??
Come on man, chill out a little, and put all those years of experience to some good here. We're not having a go at you at all.
Kind regards
TSM
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TSM
Maybe my satirical sense of humour doesn't come through too well when I write it down. Those who I have had the pleasure to serve with know me better.
My last post was sarcastic in every sense as that is my type of humour.
Those who say sarcasm is the lowest form of wit, fine, I say its one of the funniest!!
Best regards
MHAGE
Maybe my satirical sense of humour doesn't come through too well when I write it down. Those who I have had the pleasure to serve with know me better.
My last post was sarcastic in every sense as that is my type of humour.
Those who say sarcasm is the lowest form of wit, fine, I say its one of the funniest!!
Best regards
MHAGE
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MHAge
Thanks for that old boy, I'm pleased that you were not getting all horribly and grobbly. I'll take a hit myself then for jumping to the conclusion that you were upset.
Best wishes to you and all the groundies at ISK. Keep up the good work!
All the best and keep up the banter!
TSM
Thanks for that old boy, I'm pleased that you were not getting all horribly and grobbly. I'll take a hit myself then for jumping to the conclusion that you were upset.
Best wishes to you and all the groundies at ISK. Keep up the good work!
All the best and keep up the banter!
TSM
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Mad Mark
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"And I must also thank Shack37 for his knowledgeable response. For someone whose profile states they live in another country and is of such an age that you have probably never worked on the MR2 in recent years, you seem to be more knowledgeable than someone that is a damn sight closer in both location and time than yourself"
Thank you for the compliment, at least in your first sentence. The fact that I have NEVER worked on any Mk of Nimrod does not preclude me from understanding MHAGE's attitude and expressing an opinion agreeing with it. It's evident from your response that you can't or won't understand it.
What does living in another country or being of "such an age" (whatever that means) have to do with forming an opinion? There is something to be said for stepping back a bit from a situation to see it more clearly. Working weekends was not a rare event even when I was serving and whilst everyone realised it was necessary and had to be done, that didn't mean you had to like it. I believe that, basically, is what MHAGE is saying.
Carry on enjoying the "big picture", you obviously have to be a long way up to see it all so clearly. Perhaps if you're that high up you may be able to do something to improve the situation and make these posts a thing of the past.
Best regards,
s37
Quote
"And I must also thank Shack37 for his knowledgeable response. For someone whose profile states they live in another country and is of such an age that you have probably never worked on the MR2 in recent years, you seem to be more knowledgeable than someone that is a damn sight closer in both location and time than yourself"
Thank you for the compliment, at least in your first sentence. The fact that I have NEVER worked on any Mk of Nimrod does not preclude me from understanding MHAGE's attitude and expressing an opinion agreeing with it. It's evident from your response that you can't or won't understand it.
What does living in another country or being of "such an age" (whatever that means) have to do with forming an opinion? There is something to be said for stepping back a bit from a situation to see it more clearly. Working weekends was not a rare event even when I was serving and whilst everyone realised it was necessary and had to be done, that didn't mean you had to like it. I believe that, basically, is what MHAGE is saying.
Carry on enjoying the "big picture", you obviously have to be a long way up to see it all so clearly. Perhaps if you're that high up you may be able to do something to improve the situation and make these posts a thing of the past.
Best regards,
s37
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Come on Guys let us stop fighting over "who knows what about the workings of NLS", and get back to the main theme of the thread. I note that no one has addressed the point raised by Da4orce in posting #1123. Are we now spendind £4 billion on rusty MRA 4's? This "magic" aircraft that is going to resolve all the problems of the MK2. Not much point in having modern electronics if the shell is falling about.
DV
DV
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Dv
TO the best of my knowledge since January 2006 BAe Systems,have been checking the MRA4 but I don't know if the Nimrod fleet have been checked at all yet for cracks in the rivets or corrosion.
TO the best of my knowledge since January 2006 BAe Systems,have been checking the MRA4 but I don't know if the Nimrod fleet have been checked at all yet for cracks in the rivets or corrosion.
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TD. Seeing as they (MOD/IPT) have still not decided on what other pipes need checking after the XV227 incident, it is most unlikely that they have given any thought to rust examination of the shell.
DV
DV
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Some time ago I asked about Kapton wiring on this thread and the general consensus was that there was no Kapton wiring on the MR2.
Have recieved a copy of the BAE Safety Report on the ac you can imagine my suprise when I read this.
Not PVC/Nylon but Kapton !!!!
Have recieved a copy of the BAE Safety Report on the ac you can imagine my suprise when I read this.
Noted during Zonal Hazard Analysis of XV*** at RAF ****** 17th-20th March 2003.
Electrical Arcing/Fire-Wing Trailing Edge Kapton wiring.
Potential water ingress into Kapton Wiring when combined with insulation breakdown could result in electrical arcing and uncontrolled fire.
Electrical Arcing/Fire-Wing Trailing Edge Kapton wiring.
Potential water ingress into Kapton Wiring when combined with insulation breakdown could result in electrical arcing and uncontrolled fire.
Not PVC/Nylon but Kapton !!!!
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Select Committee on Defence Fourteenth Special Report The Defence Committee published its Eleventh Report of Session 2006-07 on Strategic Lift on 5 July 2007, as House of Commons Paper HC 462. The Government's response to this report was received on 20 September 2007. This is appended below.
Government Response
..........The MoD has assured us that A400M aircraft will be fitted with a Defensive Aid System and a Fuel Tank Inertion system for protection. We assume these systems will be fitted to all A400M aircraft and call on the MoD to confirm, in its response to our report, that this will be the case. It would be a false economy not to fit these systems to all A400M aircraft during manufacture, only then to retro-fit the systems later at great expense. (Paragraph 79)
17. The Department notes the Committee's comments on fitting a Defensive Aids System and a Fuel Tank Inertion system to all A400M aircraft. Procurement and fitting of Defensive systems, including that for the A400M, is kept under constant review. We constantly monitor and take judgements on a range of factors including threats, technology available and industrial capacity to provide the capabilities we need within the timescales we require. In balancing its priorities, the MoD has already ensured that all but one of our A400M aircraft will, during manufacture, be fitted with the necessary equipment to enable full Defensive systems to be installed at a later date; this includes Fuel Tank Inertion and a Defensive Aids System. Thus the higher costs of modifying the aircraft to retrofit these systems will be avoided. The one exception to this is an early development aircraft which is already under construction and cannot be fitted with the enabling pipework for Fuel Tank Inertion during the current production run. However, the MoD is currently looking at ways to address this shortfall. The fitment of defensive aids equipment for the full A400M fleet will be considered in the current Planning Round 2008.
Government Response
..........The MoD has assured us that A400M aircraft will be fitted with a Defensive Aid System and a Fuel Tank Inertion system for protection. We assume these systems will be fitted to all A400M aircraft and call on the MoD to confirm, in its response to our report, that this will be the case. It would be a false economy not to fit these systems to all A400M aircraft during manufacture, only then to retro-fit the systems later at great expense. (Paragraph 79)
17. The Department notes the Committee's comments on fitting a Defensive Aids System and a Fuel Tank Inertion system to all A400M aircraft. Procurement and fitting of Defensive systems, including that for the A400M, is kept under constant review. We constantly monitor and take judgements on a range of factors including threats, technology available and industrial capacity to provide the capabilities we need within the timescales we require. In balancing its priorities, the MoD has already ensured that all but one of our A400M aircraft will, during manufacture, be fitted with the necessary equipment to enable full Defensive systems to be installed at a later date; this includes Fuel Tank Inertion and a Defensive Aids System. Thus the higher costs of modifying the aircraft to retrofit these systems will be avoided. The one exception to this is an early development aircraft which is already under construction and cannot be fitted with the enabling pipework for Fuel Tank Inertion during the current production run. However, the MoD is currently looking at ways to address this shortfall. The fitment of defensive aids equipment for the full A400M fleet will be considered in the current Planning Round 2008.
Hellbound
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All but one to be fitted? Presumably that will be one of the aircraft we get 'second hand' from the flight test programme then. Typical that we all (all Nations involved) procrastinated over the requirement for so long that it could not be embodied at initial build.
I hope PR08 gets the numbers right, as long as it permits 25 ac fitted for and close to that number fitted with, it should be ok. Just hope they up their original number from the too few sets of role kit the IPT originally were going to buy. Lot of water under the bridge since then, so will give them the benefit of the doubt until PR08 reports...
I hope PR08 gets the numbers right, as long as it permits 25 ac fitted for and close to that number fitted with, it should be ok. Just hope they up their original number from the too few sets of role kit the IPT originally were going to buy. Lot of water under the bridge since then, so will give them the benefit of the doubt until PR08 reports...
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SB I think you misread the answer. We still ddon't know if A400M will get fuel tank protection. It was supposed to get a nitrogen inerting system and LIRCM but there are no definites in this answer.
Furthermore, I and a number of other people are very concerned about the lack of protection for MRA4. As a result, this question was asked by Mike Hancock, response received today.
Nimrod Aircraft
Mr. Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what plans he has to provide the (a) Nimrod MR2
10Oct 2007 :
and (b) Nimrod MRA4 with (i) armour and (ii) fuel tank protection before deployment in theatre; and if he will make a statement. [156605]
Mr. Bob Ainsworth:Our aircraft are fitted with defensive systems and survivability aids to reflect the operational environment in which they are deployed. We keep the requirement for such systems under review for all our aircraft deployed on operations including the Nimrod MR2. This will continue to be the case for future aircraft, such as Nimrod MRA4. I am withholding further information as its release would, or would be likely to prejudice the capability, effectiveness or security of our armed forces.
So, that will be a no then...........It is my understabding that MRA4 will have significantly less protection than the ac it replaces. Ainsworth is hiding behind national security issues, the favoured answer for MoD Politicians. He fools nobody except himself.
Furthermore, I and a number of other people are very concerned about the lack of protection for MRA4. As a result, this question was asked by Mike Hancock, response received today.
Nimrod Aircraft
Mr. Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what plans he has to provide the (a) Nimrod MR2
10Oct 2007 :
and (b) Nimrod MRA4 with (i) armour and (ii) fuel tank protection before deployment in theatre; and if he will make a statement. [156605]
Mr. Bob Ainsworth:Our aircraft are fitted with defensive systems and survivability aids to reflect the operational environment in which they are deployed. We keep the requirement for such systems under review for all our aircraft deployed on operations including the Nimrod MR2. This will continue to be the case for future aircraft, such as Nimrod MRA4. I am withholding further information as its release would, or would be likely to prejudice the capability, effectiveness or security of our armed forces.
So, that will be a no then...........It is my understabding that MRA4 will have significantly less protection than the ac it replaces. Ainsworth is hiding behind national security issues, the favoured answer for MoD Politicians. He fools nobody except himself.
Hellbound
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Nige, soz, mind was on DAS, not the other important bits, but like I said let us wait and see what they have funded. With all your efforts, and those of notable others, we might be pleasantly surprised.
We can but hope
, we might be pleasantly surprised.We can but hope
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So that is a No then.
On the subject of small number of kits to aircraft I wonder how they will manage the engineering bill?
Given a standard fit for all aircraft you will have a fleet sized maintenance cost.
Given a few kits you will then have a smaller fleet maintenance cost set against a higher strip, service and refit cost.
Which is cheaper I wonder?
On the subject of small number of kits to aircraft I wonder how they will manage the engineering bill?
Given a standard fit for all aircraft you will have a fleet sized maintenance cost.
Given a few kits you will then have a smaller fleet maintenance cost set against a higher strip, service and refit cost.
Which is cheaper I wonder?
Consider that there is one case where it might actually be smart not to make a decision on IRCM at this point.
US Department of Homeland Security has a program to develop laser IRCM for commercial aircraft. It probably won't lead to a commercial aircraft fit for various reasons, but it probably will lead to much cheaper, more reliable IRCM kit.
And if you have IRCM to handle MANPADS, maybe you can handle the residual threat through CONOPS - except perhaps for SF aircraft, which will be plumbed for it.
Heretical view here I know.
US Department of Homeland Security has a program to develop laser IRCM for commercial aircraft. It probably won't lead to a commercial aircraft fit for various reasons, but it probably will lead to much cheaper, more reliable IRCM kit.
And if you have IRCM to handle MANPADS, maybe you can handle the residual threat through CONOPS - except perhaps for SF aircraft, which will be plumbed for it.
Heretical view here I know.
Hellbound
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Wader
you are so right, but that would depend upon defence knowing exactly how many ac we were going to deploy at any one time AND THEN STICKING TO IT!!!!!!. Bloke in pub told me there were HUGE issues with the company and customer interpretations over 'plug and play' fitting of DAS components. Company thought it meant it was theoretically possible to fit DAS to an ac, customers wanted the ability to fit in 2 hours or so.
I wonder who one that argument... Not in the contract, gentlemen, but of course we can make it happen, just £50M per aircraft please!
LO - not heretical, perfectly sensible to leave decision to a later point as long as we temper what we intend to do with the aircraft vased on its capability when it arrives.
you are so right, but that would depend upon defence knowing exactly how many ac we were going to deploy at any one time AND THEN STICKING TO IT!!!!!!. Bloke in pub told me there were HUGE issues with the company and customer interpretations over 'plug and play' fitting of DAS components. Company thought it meant it was theoretically possible to fit DAS to an ac, customers wanted the ability to fit in 2 hours or so.
I wonder who one that argument... Not in the contract, gentlemen, but of course we can make it happen, just £50M per aircraft please!
LO - not heretical, perfectly sensible to leave decision to a later point as long as we temper what we intend to do with the aircraft vased on its capability when it arrives.
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Hear what you say, but the original plan for A400M was for just a handful of ac to get DAS and none to get fuel tank inerting. Laser IRCM is the gold standard at the moment, the RAF use it in a very effective way, nuff said here. You should aim to give the best possible protection that is out there.
Americans are looking at commercial fit DAS programs. Please remember that their military ac already have DAS protection along with fuel tank protection. It is fitted as standard, because it is essential. We will soon know for sure if XV230 was brought down by a fuel tank explosion. We can then evaluate Ainsworth's answer in the cold light of day.
XV179 BoI specifically referred to the A400M program when recommending the urgent review of fuel tank protection. Ainsworth and his chums will not get away with just fitting the plumbing. One would have thought they would know better. Please don't give the MoD the benefit of the doubt, the ministry does not deserve it.
When has it made sense to introduce a new ac with less protection than the one it replaces?
Americans are looking at commercial fit DAS programs. Please remember that their military ac already have DAS protection along with fuel tank protection. It is fitted as standard, because it is essential. We will soon know for sure if XV230 was brought down by a fuel tank explosion. We can then evaluate Ainsworth's answer in the cold light of day.
XV179 BoI specifically referred to the A400M program when recommending the urgent review of fuel tank protection. Ainsworth and his chums will not get away with just fitting the plumbing. One would have thought they would know better. Please don't give the MoD the benefit of the doubt, the ministry does not deserve it.
When has it made sense to introduce a new ac with less protection than the one it replaces?
Last edited by nigegilb; 15th Oct 2007 at 14:24.