Captured Personnel Permitted to Tell Stories for Money
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Roar away! helps to prove my point. Yes I was in a number of war zones and had to leave the RAF having threatened to destroy my aircraft.
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Guys, sorry to stray onto your forum; I’ve had rather a few beers with the lads tonight, so forgive me.
Sad beyond belief that it’s came to this. Sad beyond belief that the Government of this country couldn’t even get this latest balls up right. Sad that a bunch of bloody untrained ratings and the token split were out there doing a job that’s best left to the Marines. Sad that it was being done without any sort of top cover, or even a proper boat, to get the job done. It really has came to this it seems.
Sad that dead troops coming home now warrant not a second of news coverage, but this oggie stand regular is now set for life.
These 15 apologetic embarrassments are not heroes. My Grandfather, shot down twice, was a hero. My other grandfather, who marched all over Africa and caught a bullet for it, was a hero. The old bloke who lived close to me when I was a kid who was forced to build a railroad for the bloody Japs, was a hero.
This lot? Gimme peace. Disgusting.
Somebody better put a reduction gearbox on the end of Nelson’s Column. The old boy must be at 40,000 RPM by now.
So glad I’m out. And so sad.
Sad beyond belief that it’s came to this. Sad beyond belief that the Government of this country couldn’t even get this latest balls up right. Sad that a bunch of bloody untrained ratings and the token split were out there doing a job that’s best left to the Marines. Sad that it was being done without any sort of top cover, or even a proper boat, to get the job done. It really has came to this it seems.
Sad that dead troops coming home now warrant not a second of news coverage, but this oggie stand regular is now set for life.
These 15 apologetic embarrassments are not heroes. My Grandfather, shot down twice, was a hero. My other grandfather, who marched all over Africa and caught a bullet for it, was a hero. The old bloke who lived close to me when I was a kid who was forced to build a railroad for the bloody Japs, was a hero.
This lot? Gimme peace. Disgusting.
Somebody better put a reduction gearbox on the end of Nelson’s Column. The old boy must be at 40,000 RPM by now.
So glad I’m out. And so sad.
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I understand your feelings Chukka, why isnt this role left to Bootnecks. It is one of our job roles after all, or it used to be.
Have read on another forum that the Marines were up for revving up the Iranians and starting a firefight. Has anyone else seen this as fact or is it BS?
On another note does the UK have anything that would be capable of giving hefty firepower close in on missions like this?
A Rigid Raider MK2 wouldnt cut it as it has nothing heavier than a Marine + GPMG lying down on the bow?
The US Marines took us out in some very powerfull and armed to the teeth jet boats that could turn on a sixpence, they would be perfect for ship searching. Shame we can't buy a small fleet.
Have read on another forum that the Marines were up for revving up the Iranians and starting a firefight. Has anyone else seen this as fact or is it BS?
On another note does the UK have anything that would be capable of giving hefty firepower close in on missions like this?
A Rigid Raider MK2 wouldnt cut it as it has nothing heavier than a Marine + GPMG lying down on the bow?
The US Marines took us out in some very powerfull and armed to the teeth jet boats that could turn on a sixpence, they would be perfect for ship searching. Shame we can't buy a small fleet.
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Hmm...most of you guys are just as conditioned in your thoughts, just as certain of the importance of doing your duty, as I was when I joined the RAF. I was a young man in love with aeroplanes, but one day I grew up, and realised that the organisation that had trained me and fed me and to which I had given my loyalty, was in fact a killing machine. The selectors at Biggin Hill were looking for people with an aptitude to fly, and enough initiative to carry out a mission successfully, not not bright enough to figure out the big picture for thermselves. Seems as if not much has changed! I was lucky and joined the airlines, visiting many battlefields, including the Falklands, during the next 25 years. In each case I found the official history of a conflict was at odds with what actually happened, particularly with regard to the Falklands. One day YOU may find out the true nature of war. It is NEVER heroic; it is just pepole killing people, combatants, non-combatants, women, children, alike. The politicians lie about the reasons for war, the generals lie about the conduct of the war. The winners turn lying into an art form, by re-writing the history of the war, and executing or imprisoning the losers, so that truth itself becomes a victim. In an unexpected and curious way, the RN 15 have shown the truth of my assertions, and de-bunked the whole "War Heroes doing their Duty" myth.
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VT1, there is some sense in what you say, but the way you put it is absolute tosh.
Unfortunately, this world needs 'killing machines' without them defending the defenceless your privileged lifestyle would be very much at risk. Until this world learns to live in peace, soldiers, sailors and airmen will be required to get involved, put their lives on the line and occasionally kill people in the execution of their duty.
We are a long away from that utopia. While we all question certain political motives, the general principle remains - that the civilised world has an obligation to get involved and protect the innocent from the oppressors. That it is failing to do so so spectacularly is a tragedy - the nations of the World should be ashamed at what has happened, most notably in Rwanda, while we all stood by toothless and unable to act. This has not changed, there is institutional murder and terror still widespread and we cannot yet address it all, but address it we eventually must. And to do that, we will still need young men and women to do the job.
We do not need lectures on the true nature of war, indeed, there is nothing heroic about the act of war. But acts of heroism occur during the heat of battle, and these should rightly be applauded and recognised.
The Iran 15 have done nothing to back up your point - they have demonstrated little heroism as far as I am concerned, but they came out of an unpleasant situation all in one piece (well, missing a couple of boats, small arms, some CS95 and an iPod...). It is my opinion that they (particularly those in command within the group) are to be congratulated for getting out of that situation, but nothing more.
Perhaps what it demonstrates most clearly is how toothless the UK military really is in certain situations, rather than some farsical idea that heroism is a myth as you suggest. It exists every day, in every conflict, but should not automatically be associated with every military activity.
Unfortunately, this world needs 'killing machines' without them defending the defenceless your privileged lifestyle would be very much at risk. Until this world learns to live in peace, soldiers, sailors and airmen will be required to get involved, put their lives on the line and occasionally kill people in the execution of their duty.
We are a long away from that utopia. While we all question certain political motives, the general principle remains - that the civilised world has an obligation to get involved and protect the innocent from the oppressors. That it is failing to do so so spectacularly is a tragedy - the nations of the World should be ashamed at what has happened, most notably in Rwanda, while we all stood by toothless and unable to act. This has not changed, there is institutional murder and terror still widespread and we cannot yet address it all, but address it we eventually must. And to do that, we will still need young men and women to do the job.
We do not need lectures on the true nature of war, indeed, there is nothing heroic about the act of war. But acts of heroism occur during the heat of battle, and these should rightly be applauded and recognised.
The Iran 15 have done nothing to back up your point - they have demonstrated little heroism as far as I am concerned, but they came out of an unpleasant situation all in one piece (well, missing a couple of boats, small arms, some CS95 and an iPod...). It is my opinion that they (particularly those in command within the group) are to be congratulated for getting out of that situation, but nothing more.
Perhaps what it demonstrates most clearly is how toothless the UK military really is in certain situations, rather than some farsical idea that heroism is a myth as you suggest. It exists every day, in every conflict, but should not automatically be associated with every military activity.
I caught the Jeremy Vine phone-in on the car radio yesterday; subject (once again) was the Iran 15. A serving RN petty officer called in to say that he had no problems with them selling their stories, and that that view was prevalent amongst RN personnel where he worked; another RN NCO texted in with much the same view. I'm intruiged now; given all the comments on this thread, and on RUM RATION and ARRSE, what is the real Jack view of his comrades?
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Copied from the Neville Duke thread -
airborne artist writes
And, in contrast to the sleazy 'cash for Sun exclusive', this from December 2005: Fighter ace sells medals
H.
airborne artist writes
from the Telegraph obituary:
"The AOC instructed that Duke was to finish his third tour after completing 486 operational sorties. He had destroyed 27 enemy aircraft, and probably three more, making him the RAF's outstanding and highest-scoring fighter pilot in the Mediterranean theatre. He was 22 years old and at the end of October he returned to England after an absence of three years.
Tell that to the Tehran 15.
"The AOC instructed that Duke was to finish his third tour after completing 486 operational sorties. He had destroyed 27 enemy aircraft, and probably three more, making him the RAF's outstanding and highest-scoring fighter pilot in the Mediterranean theatre. He was 22 years old and at the end of October he returned to England after an absence of three years.
Tell that to the Tehran 15.
And, in contrast to the sleazy 'cash for Sun exclusive', this from December 2005: Fighter ace sells medals
H.
Ah Now VT1 shows his true colours. A pacifist. Well VT1 you have a right to your views and would defend your right to espouse them, even if I think they are utter, utter b
ks.
Of course their is heroism in combat, it is not just about killing the enemy, but of course that probably helps.
If youwant an example of heroism my I suggest you try this:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.../13/db1302.xml (Link to the obituary mentioned in Heliport's post).
Oh and you still haven't explained why you were trying to destroy an RAF aircraft?
Pencils, underpants, bibble perhaps?!?!?!?
ks.Of course their is heroism in combat, it is not just about killing the enemy, but of course that probably helps.
If youwant an example of heroism my I suggest you try this:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.../13/db1302.xml (Link to the obituary mentioned in Heliport's post).
Oh and you still haven't explained why you were trying to destroy an RAF aircraft?
Pencils, underpants, bibble perhaps?!?!?!?
Last edited by Roland Pulfrew; 13th Apr 2007 at 10:16. Reason: Edited Because Heliport beat me to the quote
I find this whole situation extremely depressing.
The real question to be asked is why were they captured so easily? As to their conduct whilst in Iran, well I was not there so I don't know the circumstances. I was, however, slightly surprised to see the play fighting at the 'coffee morning', that did not seem staged to me.
As to what has happened when they got back. Politics, pure politics. Liar Blair was humiliated by Iran in every which way. He desperately needed to redress the balance and, as we all know, this Government conducts it's business through soundbites and tabloid journalsm. It's all about tomorrows headline. So, what better way to redress the balance than to 'encourage' the captives to spill the beans in a lurid fashion about how badly they had been treated. The news conference was 'handled' very well with the individuals reading out yet more prepared statements (how many times did they each say 1.7nm?). Then, let them off the leash. It turned out, however, to be an own goal and the backlash is plain to see.
Does the Government care, do they hell. Gordon can sit back and smile about the negative publicity being generated about the Forces, because he despises them. Blair is happy that attention has been diverted from the 25th Anniversary of the Falklands War in which, love her or loathe her, Maggie showed true leadership under pressure and won due to the professionalism of the Forces and the backing of the British public. More importantly today, the return home of those 4 coffins. 4 youngsters snuffed out and two young females killed in action is not good reading. So, overall, the Labour Government is losing little sleep over this.
I can appreciate the frustration shown by posters regarding the cash for story debacle but to those who see fit to carry out cruel and personal attacks on the lone female, you should be ashamed of yourselves. Do you really think that comments like that show you up in a better light with the non militay readership of this forum?
The real question to be asked is why were they captured so easily? As to their conduct whilst in Iran, well I was not there so I don't know the circumstances. I was, however, slightly surprised to see the play fighting at the 'coffee morning', that did not seem staged to me.
As to what has happened when they got back. Politics, pure politics. Liar Blair was humiliated by Iran in every which way. He desperately needed to redress the balance and, as we all know, this Government conducts it's business through soundbites and tabloid journalsm. It's all about tomorrows headline. So, what better way to redress the balance than to 'encourage' the captives to spill the beans in a lurid fashion about how badly they had been treated. The news conference was 'handled' very well with the individuals reading out yet more prepared statements (how many times did they each say 1.7nm?). Then, let them off the leash. It turned out, however, to be an own goal and the backlash is plain to see.
Does the Government care, do they hell. Gordon can sit back and smile about the negative publicity being generated about the Forces, because he despises them. Blair is happy that attention has been diverted from the 25th Anniversary of the Falklands War in which, love her or loathe her, Maggie showed true leadership under pressure and won due to the professionalism of the Forces and the backing of the British public. More importantly today, the return home of those 4 coffins. 4 youngsters snuffed out and two young females killed in action is not good reading. So, overall, the Labour Government is losing little sleep over this.
I can appreciate the frustration shown by posters regarding the cash for story debacle but to those who see fit to carry out cruel and personal attacks on the lone female, you should be ashamed of yourselves. Do you really think that comments like that show you up in a better light with the non militay readership of this forum?
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Wyler
Credit us with some intelligence. If we're interested enough in mil matters to read the forum, we understand that disapproval tends to be expressed more harshly than elsewhere.
It's "the lone female" who sold her story for a reputed £100-150,000.
Non military readers are just as disgusted as military readers, and just as sceptical about her vague assurance that she'll give 'some of the money' to those more deserving. She could easily regain respect by giving it all - or salvage some respect if she said how much. (Depending upon how much.)
Most non mil people I know are saddened to see the fine reputation of the British armed services sullied in the way it has been by serving personnel selling stories, and easily understand why those who are currently serving the country, or have done in the past, are so appalled. We'd be surprised, and disappointed, if they weren't.
FL
Do you really think that comments like that show you up in a better light with the non military readership of this forum?
It's "the lone female" who sold her story for a reputed £100-150,000.
Non military readers are just as disgusted as military readers, and just as sceptical about her vague assurance that she'll give 'some of the money' to those more deserving. She could easily regain respect by giving it all - or salvage some respect if she said how much. (Depending upon how much.)
Most non mil people I know are saddened to see the fine reputation of the British armed services sullied in the way it has been by serving personnel selling stories, and easily understand why those who are currently serving the country, or have done in the past, are so appalled. We'd be surprised, and disappointed, if they weren't.
FL
Last edited by Flying Lawyer; 13th Apr 2007 at 12:33.
If Faye Turney was my daughter I'd give myself a slap.
Then I'd advise her to make as much money out of this as quickly as possible.
£150k from the papers for a few interviews and pictures? Done.
£100k for a book deal? Done.
£20k for a couple of tawdry celeb appearances over the next 2 years? Done.
Its illogical not to do so.
Being in the military is just another job these days - so it would seem. That's how senior managment, Government and the public view it. So treat it like just another job.
Lamentable yes. But reality I fear. Especially for the non-commissioned.
She can bring that child up now with a private education. Or work part time with no mortgage and be there for it. Its a life changing sum of money for someone like Faye. If it were you and the sums were larger, say half a million, then I think you'd want us to forgive you for putting your family first and selling.
If you didn't I'd think you had an odd, outdated attitiude to the current world.
WWW
Then I'd advise her to make as much money out of this as quickly as possible.
£150k from the papers for a few interviews and pictures? Done.
£100k for a book deal? Done.
£20k for a couple of tawdry celeb appearances over the next 2 years? Done.
Its illogical not to do so.
Being in the military is just another job these days - so it would seem. That's how senior managment, Government and the public view it. So treat it like just another job.
Lamentable yes. But reality I fear. Especially for the non-commissioned.
She can bring that child up now with a private education. Or work part time with no mortgage and be there for it. Its a life changing sum of money for someone like Faye. If it were you and the sums were larger, say half a million, then I think you'd want us to forgive you for putting your family first and selling.
If you didn't I'd think you had an odd, outdated attitiude to the current world.
WWW
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I hate to quote this but......"Being in the military is not a job, its an adventure, etc" (badly plagirised from that steven seagull movie Under Siege)
I never joined the RAF for the money. Neither did anyone else I knew. We all joined because we wanted a career (Now Missing), good mates (Still There) and an interesting job.
Botton line, in my not so humble opinion, is now they are back to shut up, say nothing and donate all recieved monies to the services charities.
as to the 100,000 or 150,000 recieved by Faye, how long do you reckon it will take for the media to recoup that. To THEM its a pittance, but is several years wages for a poor squaddie/airman/jack etc.
Bloody poor show all round
I never joined the RAF for the money. Neither did anyone else I knew. We all joined because we wanted a career (Now Missing), good mates (Still There) and an interesting job.
Botton line, in my not so humble opinion, is now they are back to shut up, say nothing and donate all recieved monies to the services charities.
as to the 100,000 or 150,000 recieved by Faye, how long do you reckon it will take for the media to recoup that. To THEM its a pittance, but is several years wages for a poor squaddie/airman/jack etc.
Bloody poor show all round
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Oh dear yet more roaring. No one disputes the sacrifices made by our fathers & grandfathers during WWII but today the situation is different. As I suggested what is important is the big picture... global warming, overpopulation, scarce resources, starvation, leading to conflict over who owns what, and in our case who controls the remaining oil reserves. Nothing particularly heroic in being part of an invasion force, killing the natives in order to keep our oil dependant economy running for a few more years.
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Wee Weasley Welshman wrote:- If you didn't I'd think you had an odd, outdated attitiude to the current world.
As heliport says It seems there are still a lot of us with "an odd, outdated attitude to the current world."
I find it awfully sad that there are so many in this, what was a Great Country, that no longer believe in honour, honesty, integrity and sincerity.
As we all know honour denotes a fine sense of, and a strict conformity to, what is considered morally right or due: a high sense of honour; on one's honour. Honesty denotes the presence of probity and particularly the absence of deceit or fraud, esp. in business dealings: uncompromising honesty and trustworthiness. Integrity indicates a soundness of moral principle that no power or influence can impair: a man of unquestioned integrity and dependability. Sincerity implies absence of dissimulation or deceit, and a strong adherence to truth.
It is so sad that this present government cannot live up to those principles. Today all self-discipline has been lost, all discipline in schools and the home has been lost, there is no shame left. It is quickly becoming a case of grab what you can to hell with others. I just wish the top brass would stand up to Whitehall and say enough is enough HM Forces should not be submitted to civilian rules and jurisdiction.
As heliport says It seems there are still a lot of us with "an odd, outdated attitude to the current world."
I find it awfully sad that there are so many in this, what was a Great Country, that no longer believe in honour, honesty, integrity and sincerity.
As we all know honour denotes a fine sense of, and a strict conformity to, what is considered morally right or due: a high sense of honour; on one's honour. Honesty denotes the presence of probity and particularly the absence of deceit or fraud, esp. in business dealings: uncompromising honesty and trustworthiness. Integrity indicates a soundness of moral principle that no power or influence can impair: a man of unquestioned integrity and dependability. Sincerity implies absence of dissimulation or deceit, and a strong adherence to truth.
It is so sad that this present government cannot live up to those principles. Today all self-discipline has been lost, all discipline in schools and the home has been lost, there is no shame left. It is quickly becoming a case of grab what you can to hell with others. I just wish the top brass would stand up to Whitehall and say enough is enough HM Forces should not be submitted to civilian rules and jurisdiction.
Flying Lawyer
You miss my point. I too am disgusted at the way she has sold her story and over egged it to make an insect bite sound like some kind of agony and torture. What I do not like is when some of the posters make personal attacks about her physical appearance.
'If I was an Iranian doubt I would think of raping her' or words to that effect. That stinks, is incredibly offensive and anyone who thinks that that is an acceptible comment to make about anybody is not worthy of being credited with any intelligence whatsoever.
'If I was an Iranian doubt I would think of raping her' or words to that effect. That stinks, is incredibly offensive and anyone who thinks that that is an acceptible comment to make about anybody is not worthy of being credited with any intelligence whatsoever.
Wyler, those of us blessed with sufficient intelligence to know the difference between a throwaway "humorous" quip and a heartfelt comment are more numerous than you might think.
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Mal Drop:
Please could you explain to me what the difference is between a throwaway "humorous" quip and a heartfelt comment, when it is a direct personal insult to somebody?
Are only politically correct subjects (such as Guy Gibson’s dog’s name) “heartfelt comments”. Humorous quips on the other hand can be used can be used against anything “Not PC”; such as fat, ugly, salad dodger etc, etc.
So if you “are” blessed with sufficient intelligence please tell me what the difference between a direct insult and a pi$$ take is and why it applies to some but not others.
I have been appalled by some of the insults that I have seen on this thread (some of which seem to have disappeared – you know who you are). And quite honestly I do wonder how those who have made such insults would behave if they found themselves in the “the Famous 15’s) position.
Honesty, Integrity, Honour, Military Pride – some of you make me laugh.
Please could you explain to me what the difference is between a throwaway "humorous" quip and a heartfelt comment, when it is a direct personal insult to somebody?
Are only politically correct subjects (such as Guy Gibson’s dog’s name) “heartfelt comments”. Humorous quips on the other hand can be used can be used against anything “Not PC”; such as fat, ugly, salad dodger etc, etc.
So if you “are” blessed with sufficient intelligence please tell me what the difference between a direct insult and a pi$$ take is and why it applies to some but not others.
I have been appalled by some of the insults that I have seen on this thread (some of which seem to have disappeared – you know who you are). And quite honestly I do wonder how those who have made such insults would behave if they found themselves in the “the Famous 15’s) position.
Honesty, Integrity, Honour, Military Pride – some of you make me laugh.