Captured Personnel Permitted to Tell Stories for Money
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Back in Geordie Land
Posts: 492
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SRENAPPS,
I don't wish to get into your questioning of insults etc. however you must understand that feelings are running particularly high over the recent events.
These 15 sailors did NOT do as they were supposed to, post capture. Their conduct was little short of pathetic in my opinion. But should they have spoken whilst they were in Iran? Well very possibly Yes, especially if it stopped a beating for them or something worse.
But should they have blatantly sold their story when they were returned? ABSOLUTELY NOT!
It was, without question, a most deplorable thing to do, and they and the RN in general should be thoroughly ashamed. I cannot think of anything so disgraceful, especially so when we remember the other events of last week, and the repatriation of 4 real heros yesterday.
So do try to appreciate that many members of our Forces feel extremely strongly about what these 15 did (and didn't) do, and it is perfectly understandable that many servicemen and women are going to use language that might not always be PC, but frankly, I think they are perfectly entitled to their 'strong' and valid opinions.
The Winco
I don't wish to get into your questioning of insults etc. however you must understand that feelings are running particularly high over the recent events.
These 15 sailors did NOT do as they were supposed to, post capture. Their conduct was little short of pathetic in my opinion. But should they have spoken whilst they were in Iran? Well very possibly Yes, especially if it stopped a beating for them or something worse.
But should they have blatantly sold their story when they were returned? ABSOLUTELY NOT!
It was, without question, a most deplorable thing to do, and they and the RN in general should be thoroughly ashamed. I cannot think of anything so disgraceful, especially so when we remember the other events of last week, and the repatriation of 4 real heros yesterday.
So do try to appreciate that many members of our Forces feel extremely strongly about what these 15 did (and didn't) do, and it is perfectly understandable that many servicemen and women are going to use language that might not always be PC, but frankly, I think they are perfectly entitled to their 'strong' and valid opinions.
The Winco
Winco
I don't think we should lose sight of the fact that the Navy/Govt wanted their tales of capture in the papers and seemed to have assisted in the whole process. You could say the hostages were obeying "orders" in doing so
......But should they have blatantly sold their story when they were returned?
Oh dear yet more roaring. No one disputes the sacrifices made by our fathers & grandfathers during WWII but today the situation is different. As I suggested what is important is the big picture... global warming, overpopulation, scarce resources, starvation, leading to conflict over who owns what, and in our case who controls the remaining oil reserves. Nothing particularly heroic in being part of an invasion force, killing the natives in order to keep our oil dependant economy running for a few more years.
Oh God I fed the Troll!!!
I'm sorry.
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: South Wales
Age: 63
Posts: 729
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Winco and all:
I do agree with you in certain respects. However, think a bit more deeply. The ones that gave their stories were young kids. What do you expect??
After the charade in Iran it was obvious what would happen when they got home. (Having said that most people here on prune could not see it).
They are being held responsible by members of this forum for a total cock up by PR within the armed forces and the MOD. I say again – how many people on the site would have acted any differently when offered that kind of money.
My bottom line is that it has happened and it will happen again. We are all pawns in the game of life. Politicians laugh all the way to the bank when they see this kind of stuff on Prune – it keeps the heat of them.
I think it is very sad that certain members of this forum compare them with those that have died. Are you trying to tell me that these 15 would not have performed some courageous act if required in different circumstances, and not one of those who have died, would not have sold their story – given the chance? (I hated writing that).
Or is it pure coincidence that we had 15 fat, lazy, salad dodging personnel that knew if they were caught by the Iranians they would come home to a life of stardom.
“SORRY”, but all I see here are lemmings led by hungry wolves.
I do agree with you in certain respects. However, think a bit more deeply. The ones that gave their stories were young kids. What do you expect??
After the charade in Iran it was obvious what would happen when they got home. (Having said that most people here on prune could not see it).
They are being held responsible by members of this forum for a total cock up by PR within the armed forces and the MOD. I say again – how many people on the site would have acted any differently when offered that kind of money.
My bottom line is that it has happened and it will happen again. We are all pawns in the game of life. Politicians laugh all the way to the bank when they see this kind of stuff on Prune – it keeps the heat of them.
I think it is very sad that certain members of this forum compare them with those that have died. Are you trying to tell me that these 15 would not have performed some courageous act if required in different circumstances, and not one of those who have died, would not have sold their story – given the chance? (I hated writing that).
Or is it pure coincidence that we had 15 fat, lazy, salad dodging personnel that knew if they were caught by the Iranians they would come home to a life of stardom.
“SORRY”, but all I see here are lemmings led by hungry wolves.
I think Srennaps is right, these guys would not have sold their stories if not encouraged by "The Brass."
They have been used by Downing St, MoD, and the Admiralty as a propaganda machine, and when the tide of opinion has turned against the powers that be, they have denied all knowledge.
We all know that talking to the press without first consulting the Press Liaison Officer is a no no. They might be young and naive, but they aren't so stupid as to sell their stories without getting permission from the higher ups, and a story of this magnitude would involve some very higher ups. If they were that stupid then I would expect to hear of charges and possibly courts martial being convened, but that won't happen because then the defence would bring in proof that permission came from the highest level of government.
The problem is, this is a general election year. The opposition have latched onto this breach of military protocol and are trying to persecute the current government for allowing it. So in response the powers that be are sloping shoulders and trying to drop their subordinates in it.
We all know people who have died in Iraq and Afghanistan, and if those people where here now, I am sure they would not hold it against the 2 who got their stories out before the others were clamped down upon.
And for those among you who are complaining about their conduct let m e say this, it might not be nice but it is true, the enemy is no longer a gentleman, prisoners of war in the middle east are not treated in accordance with the Geneva convention. I am sure the 'bad guys' would have no qualms about using torture and rape as methods of interrogation. In those circumstances would you behave differently? RAF pilots in gulf war 1 didn't hold out forever, they went on TV and said what they were told to say.
So, a leading rate has earned more in 1 interview with Trevor McDoughnut than an Admiral earns in a year. And that, I think is the real source of indignation.
At the end of the day, they are home safe and unharmed. That is more important than 7 more boxes arriving at Brize Norton or Lynham.
For those of you who object, they have their own consciences to deal with, and that will stay with them far longer than your harsh words.
They have been used by Downing St, MoD, and the Admiralty as a propaganda machine, and when the tide of opinion has turned against the powers that be, they have denied all knowledge.
We all know that talking to the press without first consulting the Press Liaison Officer is a no no. They might be young and naive, but they aren't so stupid as to sell their stories without getting permission from the higher ups, and a story of this magnitude would involve some very higher ups. If they were that stupid then I would expect to hear of charges and possibly courts martial being convened, but that won't happen because then the defence would bring in proof that permission came from the highest level of government.
The problem is, this is a general election year. The opposition have latched onto this breach of military protocol and are trying to persecute the current government for allowing it. So in response the powers that be are sloping shoulders and trying to drop their subordinates in it.
We all know people who have died in Iraq and Afghanistan, and if those people where here now, I am sure they would not hold it against the 2 who got their stories out before the others were clamped down upon.
And for those among you who are complaining about their conduct let m e say this, it might not be nice but it is true, the enemy is no longer a gentleman, prisoners of war in the middle east are not treated in accordance with the Geneva convention. I am sure the 'bad guys' would have no qualms about using torture and rape as methods of interrogation. In those circumstances would you behave differently? RAF pilots in gulf war 1 didn't hold out forever, they went on TV and said what they were told to say.
So, a leading rate has earned more in 1 interview with Trevor McDoughnut than an Admiral earns in a year. And that, I think is the real source of indignation.
At the end of the day, they are home safe and unharmed. That is more important than 7 more boxes arriving at Brize Norton or Lynham.
For those of you who object, they have their own consciences to deal with, and that will stay with them far longer than your harsh words.
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Shefford, Beds, UK
Posts: 109
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Petition worth a look
Current No 10 Petition on this subject:
We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to name and sack the person responsible for declaring that members of the armed services can sell their stories to the media. More details
Submitted by Mike Critchley of Warship World magazine – Deadline to sign up by: 12 June 2007 – Signatures: 3,754 (as at 14 Apr).
Those that are really responsible for this debacle are hiding behind it being an 'MOD' or 'Navy' decision. However, the individual responsible has not stepped forward. Dismal referred constantly to it being a ‘Naval decision’ that he was ‘made aware of.’ I find it hard to believe that this spin infatuated bunch of shysters would leave a decision like that to the single Services without guidance or input from ministers.
We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to name and sack the person responsible for declaring that members of the armed services can sell their stories to the media. More details
Submitted by Mike Critchley of Warship World magazine – Deadline to sign up by: 12 June 2007 – Signatures: 3,754 (as at 14 Apr).
Those that are really responsible for this debacle are hiding behind it being an 'MOD' or 'Navy' decision. However, the individual responsible has not stepped forward. Dismal referred constantly to it being a ‘Naval decision’ that he was ‘made aware of.’ I find it hard to believe that this spin infatuated bunch of shysters would leave a decision like that to the single Services without guidance or input from ministers.
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 48
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Linky to that petition here - http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Navy-media/
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Wiltshire
Posts: 109
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Initially I deplored the story telling to the media, and the content as reported, certainly did not show the military in a very good light. Having now thought about it a bit more I actually feel sorry for the hostages. They didn't simply ignore orders or sell their stories for cash, they were given permision to do so. They may have a problem holding their heads up but they were not acting against orders and were not ultimately responsible.
Would it be too much to think that those responsible will step forward? I think that those responsible will simply hide behind a wall of words and spin.
Courage isn't standing against overwhelming odds and dying to no effect, but those responsible for this debacle, the media show, should now show some courage by admitting their individual and collective responsibility. I won't be holding my breath.
Would it be too much to think that those responsible will step forward? I think that those responsible will simply hide behind a wall of words and spin.
Courage isn't standing against overwhelming odds and dying to no effect, but those responsible for this debacle, the media show, should now show some courage by admitting their individual and collective responsibility. I won't be holding my breath.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Lomon, from what has been said so far I surmise that the Iranian's prisoner handling was not wholly at odds with the Geneva Convention. Hooding and handcuffing can be argued as protection of the prisoners - it stops them doing anything foolish like trying to escape and getting beaten or shot in the process.
Certainly they seem to have been handled less roughly than on the SAS selection program on TV - no forced marches, starvation, stripping, degrading interogations etc.
As for 15 salad dodgers, a term my daughter agreed with but I had never heard, I don't think you could accuse all the 15 of being salad dodgers.
Certainly they seem to have been handled less roughly than on the SAS selection program on TV - no forced marches, starvation, stripping, degrading interogations etc.
As for 15 salad dodgers, a term my daughter agreed with but I had never heard, I don't think you could accuse all the 15 of being salad dodgers.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Home
Posts: 3,399
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Interestingly, I have just been chatting to a bootie mate of mine just returned from Afghanistan, and he says that they are currently being told to say anything at all after capture, including admitting to eating babies etc live on telly if that stops a beating. Everybody knows its a lie, so why not?
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Lincs
Posts: 695
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There is a school of thought that says that if you are captured, then yes, say anything at all if it stops torture, beatings et al, and I have no problem with that at all. I would suggest that most of us would do the same.
The problem is that some on this forum are now suggesting that the 15 were not only forced by the Iranians to 'spout off' in front of Iranian TV, but that they were 'forced' and 'encouraged' into selling their stories to the UK press and media. This I do not believe.
If the idiots at the MOD, government or the RN top brass orchestrated this, then they too should be held to account, but no one forced Mr Bean and his colleagues to go to the press and make utter fools of themselves did they?
TSM
The problem is that some on this forum are now suggesting that the 15 were not only forced by the Iranians to 'spout off' in front of Iranian TV, but that they were 'forced' and 'encouraged' into selling their stories to the UK press and media. This I do not believe.
If the idiots at the MOD, government or the RN top brass orchestrated this, then they too should be held to account, but no one forced Mr Bean and his colleagues to go to the press and make utter fools of themselves did they?
TSM
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: England
Posts: 964
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think the major problem for these folks will be the PTSD induced by dealing with their respective peer groups and the comments of their comrades and the nation. I think we are giving them a much harder time than they got in Iran, and Bliar continues to slope shoulders.
'I did not have sex with that woman!"mmm! we all know how that turned out.
'I did not know that we would allow them (some of them) to sell their stories to the press and that a decision involving something so politically sensitive was taken by the Navy alone who then passed it on to Broon nose without my knowledge, honest! I mean surely you must believe what i say, i am the PM, i never tell lies' mmm, wonder how this one will turn out?
There MUST be one Admiral out there with the balls to help save the honour of the Navy, Nelson etc etc by resigning over this whole putrid fiasco. It would not mean loss of pension (a knighthood maybe, although i reckon the conservatives will give you one when they inevitibly are voted in), Japanese Admirals would commit suicide for less, they (the Government) are trashing 600 years of reputation. Somebody stand up for godsake. CDS has gone quiet!
'I did not have sex with that woman!"mmm! we all know how that turned out.
'I did not know that we would allow them (some of them) to sell their stories to the press and that a decision involving something so politically sensitive was taken by the Navy alone who then passed it on to Broon nose without my knowledge, honest! I mean surely you must believe what i say, i am the PM, i never tell lies' mmm, wonder how this one will turn out?
There MUST be one Admiral out there with the balls to help save the honour of the Navy, Nelson etc etc by resigning over this whole putrid fiasco. It would not mean loss of pension (a knighthood maybe, although i reckon the conservatives will give you one when they inevitibly are voted in), Japanese Admirals would commit suicide for less, they (the Government) are trashing 600 years of reputation. Somebody stand up for godsake. CDS has gone quiet!
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,451
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Call me paranoid, but (and I think this has been said by someone earlier on these pages) I think the whole "have 'em sell their story to the media" notion was a very clever - and incredibly cynical - (and so far, successful) attempt to drag the media and Joe Public's attention away from asking the question that's still begging to be answered: who should be held responsible for putting 'the 15' into the impossible position they were allowed to get themselves into?
While few would argue that the Captain of the Norfolk shouldn't find himself on the wrong end of some uncomfortable questions at a Court of Inquiry, I for one feel that the real culprits wear some far wider gold stripes on their sleeves than he does.
...or maybe pinstriped suits.
While few would argue that the Captain of the Norfolk shouldn't find himself on the wrong end of some uncomfortable questions at a Court of Inquiry, I for one feel that the real culprits wear some far wider gold stripes on their sleeves than he does.
...or maybe pinstriped suits.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Wiley, didn't the Norfolk shadow the Bismarck through the Denmark Stait?
Wrong county me thinks
Wrong county me thinks
Last edited by Pontius Navigator; 14th Apr 2007 at 08:56. Reason: spelling
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Lincs
Posts: 695
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wiley,
Me thinks your nav kit is on the blink!
I think you are a couple of hundred miles too far out to the east old chap!
I do however think you may have a good point there. It is just possible that the RN top brass are trying to take the heat from the Captain of Cornwall by diverting attention over to others.
TSM
Me thinks your nav kit is on the blink!
I think you are a couple of hundred miles too far out to the east old chap!
I do however think you may have a good point there. It is just possible that the RN top brass are trying to take the heat from the Captain of Cornwall by diverting attention over to others.
TSM
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,451
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yep, looks like I'd better put a bit of work in on my English counties.
Maybe I've got it wrong again, but was I getting the name confused with another recent RN 'encounter' in (too) shallow water?
Maybe I've got it wrong again, but was I getting the name confused with another recent RN 'encounter' in (too) shallow water?