Captured Personnel Permitted to Tell Stories for Money
Faye and her colleages should receive medals for showing exceptional common sense. They correctly assesed their situation and did not fire their weapons, thus saving their own and many Iranians lives. In so doing they exposed the obscene bu...sht of "doing your duty" "dying for your country" and all the other forms of military conditioning which are now failing to imprint on more sceptical young minds.
The roars of appoplexy coming from the dinosaurs on this thread are predictable. Real heros in our modern age are those who keep their consiences intact and refuse to kill in aggressive & illegal wars.
Thanks Two's in for summing it up so well.
The roars of appoplexy coming from the dinosaurs on this thread are predictable. Real heros in our modern age are those who keep their consiences intact and refuse to kill in aggressive & illegal wars.
Thanks Two's in for summing it up so well.
Guess you're not seriously Military then........
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Can't quite agree with your post v-t-1 but I do have a lot of sympathy for AB and FT. The RN claimed that they let them sell their stories in this manner so that they could do so with full support from the RN in media handling. If this is so then why have these young impressionable sailors been allowed to make a laughing stock of themselves and the RN? I think that it is a sad reflection of where we are today when it appears that nobody in their command chain has offered the support, protection and advice that young Junior Ranks in our military deserve. IMHO, the RN have handled this very poorly. It all started when they apparantly failed to adequately support their personnel to prevent them being taken hostage in the first place and has ended with poor support and advice on their return to the UK.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
AB, it is reported, feels he was hung out to dry. He thought that they were all cleared to give their stories, probably at the 'home-town' level and he said he got but a fraction of FTs dosh.
These are not highly trained media personnel and on the whole, IMHO, the Iranians seemed to handle them not that far removed from the way the Germans treated British POWs or our own prisonner handling techniques.
Hooding and handcuffing can be argued as 'ensuring prisonner safety' as the prisoner will not do anything stupid such as hitting a guard or trying to escape.
Their problem and the problem for the media, is how to 'sell' a not wholly remarkable tale in a dramatic manner. They failed.
Of course in the manner of the media, all the papers that did not get the story publish and embellish every scrap of information such as on RR or here.
These are not highly trained media personnel and on the whole, IMHO, the Iranians seemed to handle them not that far removed from the way the Germans treated British POWs or our own prisonner handling techniques.
Hooding and handcuffing can be argued as 'ensuring prisonner safety' as the prisoner will not do anything stupid such as hitting a guard or trying to escape.
Their problem and the problem for the media, is how to 'sell' a not wholly remarkable tale in a dramatic manner. They failed.
Of course in the manner of the media, all the papers that did not get the story publish and embellish every scrap of information such as on RR or here.
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I have very little complaint about how they handled themselves in Iran. We were told that the whole 'big brother' meeja fest was set up to allow the MoD some control. All I can say is, if this is what Mr Bean and Faye Goodie are coming out with and they are being assisted by MoD press minders, I dread to think what would be coming out if they weren't being advised by 'professional' MoD minders. It's been said elsewhere, the entire RN press dept should get their P45s pronto.
One day we might actually find out where the 3 (US) vessels in the task group with a shallow enough draught to escort our rubber dinghies were. Or, indeed, why we didn't just search ships after they tied up at Basra instead of having the RN fart about close to Iranian waters after the IRGC had announced they were after Western hostages in retaliation for their chaps taken by the US in Iraq. But hey, that is why the NuLabour MoD gyroscopic physicians hung these youngsters out to the press, to divert attention from the real questions.
One day we might actually find out where the 3 (US) vessels in the task group with a shallow enough draught to escort our rubber dinghies were. Or, indeed, why we didn't just search ships after they tied up at Basra instead of having the RN fart about close to Iranian waters after the IRGC had announced they were after Western hostages in retaliation for their chaps taken by the US in Iraq. But hey, that is why the NuLabour MoD gyroscopic physicians hung these youngsters out to the press, to divert attention from the real questions.
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I did 24 hrs prisoner handling on CAC course and it was the worst 24 hrs I have endured. The likes of AB could well be in a poor state after all this. He should not have been shoved in front of the press pack hours after getting home. He obviously had a tough time in captivity. So much for the RN looking after their own. I feel sorry for the lad, he has been by HMG in much the same way ADJ used him.
Last edited by nigegilb; 12th Apr 2007 at 08:59.
Hellbound
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Once we all get over our views on the particular individuals, there will just be a sour taste about how the RN has looked after its people since they got back.
It doesn't help that the 2 individuals first in the papers were the 2 least credible people one could hope to have tell their tales...
It doesn't help that the 2 individuals first in the papers were the 2 least credible people one could hope to have tell their tales...
Personally, I'm looking forward to going back to reading all about the Beckhams and random other celebrity stories.
Famous people really deserve the extra money they receive for their stories.
Famous people really deserve the extra money they receive for their stories.
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vee-tail-1
"The roars of appoplexy coming from the dinosaurs on this thread are predictable. Real heros in our modern age are those who keep their consiences intact and refuse to kill in aggressive & illegal wars"
'Real heros' are you barking mad? Does selling your story make you a real hero? Your comments are an insult to those 'real heros' who have made the ultimate sacrifice and are offensive to say the least. If you have ever been in a war zone then you will be aware of what is expected from you in such events. These people failed miserably to do that, and whilst I understand that doing anything to save your neck might make good sence (and I don't have a problem with that) what you fail to understand is that this thread is about them selling their stories!
It has nothing at all to do with keeping your consience intact or any of the other rubbish you are spouting. If they felt that bad, then they shouldn't have been there in the first place!
"The roars of appoplexy coming from the dinosaurs on this thread are predictable. Real heros in our modern age are those who keep their consiences intact and refuse to kill in aggressive & illegal wars"
'Real heros' are you barking mad? Does selling your story make you a real hero? Your comments are an insult to those 'real heros' who have made the ultimate sacrifice and are offensive to say the least. If you have ever been in a war zone then you will be aware of what is expected from you in such events. These people failed miserably to do that, and whilst I understand that doing anything to save your neck might make good sence (and I don't have a problem with that) what you fail to understand is that this thread is about them selling their stories!
It has nothing at all to do with keeping your consience intact or any of the other rubbish you are spouting. If they felt that bad, then they shouldn't have been there in the first place!
Not wanting to wander too far away from the theme of this thread but....does this not show why some sort of Op trg package is a good Idea for all Mil personnell?
A couple of times we have seen people moaning about having to be capable of defending themselves and others in various theatres
A couple of times we have seen people moaning about having to be capable of defending themselves and others in various theatres
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vee-tail-1
Pretty much says it all really! Maybe you could enlighten us as to what wars you partook in then? Not that I'm interested you understand, its just to let you have a (very) brief moment of glory.
TSM
Pretty much says it all really! Maybe you could enlighten us as to what wars you partook in then? Not that I'm interested you understand, its just to let you have a (very) brief moment of glory.
TSM
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Int or wot and journos
I started reading a library book about the time that this all kicked off. It is entitled "Lie in the dark and listen" and is a story about the wartime exploits of a Wg Cdr Ken Rees. It transpires that this remarkable man was a Wellington bomber pilot who ended up in Stalagluft III and participated in the "Great Escape"and the forced march to Bremen.
Tony Bethell writes an introduction which, I think, puts this whole sordid debate nicely into context and I quote:
"Today in an age when the mere fact of being in a theatre of hostility (not hostilities) generates the media's definition of "hero" I can still only think of the Great Escape as an event in which men did their duty. That, I think, is sufficient, and if others will think of all of us, those who were murdered and those who survived, in such a manner, I believe we would all be content"
3P
Tony Bethell writes an introduction which, I think, puts this whole sordid debate nicely into context and I quote:
"Today in an age when the mere fact of being in a theatre of hostility (not hostilities) generates the media's definition of "hero" I can still only think of the Great Escape as an event in which men did their duty. That, I think, is sufficient, and if others will think of all of us, those who were murdered and those who survived, in such a manner, I believe we would all be content"
3P
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IMHO, good luck to those RN/RM personnel for trying to make some money out of the situation! There have been many stories in recent times of similar encounters in wars told by those who have fought in them and many of these have been by senior officers some of these books have even been less interesting and more transparent an attempt at self gratification and most of these books didn't attract a priministerial response. Also the public has an interest in what these servicemen and woman have gone through, although the timing of the interviews was possibly a bit too soon after the event, but never the less I say good luck to those of them who have made something out of this episode before the MOD made their U-turn. As its been shown time and time again that the MOD doesn't always look after the individuals best interests and I don't believe that this is a slur against those poor souls or their families that have tragically died in this or any other conflict.
MS
MS
V tail "had to leave the RAF having threatened to destroy my aircraft". What the bloody hell are you on about? The RAF threatened to destroy your aircraft: how, when, where? Why don't you spill the beans and sell your story --it sounds far more interesting than the drivel coming from you (and your friend Faye so far).
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You reading that right
OKOC
It might be me but I read it differently to you. Is he not saying "he had to leave the RAF because he threatend to distroy his aircraft"
In which case he should be locked up?
Sharmine
It might be me but I read it differently to you. Is he not saying "he had to leave the RAF because he threatend to distroy his aircraft"
In which case he should be locked up?
Sharmine
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"had to leave the RAF having threatened to destroy my aircraft"
What? Were you a Nazi spy or something? Or did you take the 'suicide mission' statement (from a couple of weeks back) too far?
Biggles chainsaws his spitfire.
Mind you I prefer the idea that the RAF had threatened to destroy his aircraft, perhaps he was a Ruskie Bear pilot that strayed a bit to close to our airspace.
What? Were you a Nazi spy or something? Or did you take the 'suicide mission' statement (from a couple of weeks back) too far?
Biggles chainsaws his spitfire.
Mind you I prefer the idea that the RAF had threatened to destroy his aircraft, perhaps he was a Ruskie Bear pilot that strayed a bit to close to our airspace.
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Originally Posted by GPMG
Biggles chainsaws his spitfire.
"What in blazes-!", exclaimed the Wingco, as the throaty roar of a two-stroke chainsaw at Dispersal startled his batman...
had to leave the RAF having threatened to destroy my aircraft.
Had it been:
had to leave, the RAF having threatened to destroy my aircraft.
But if it had been:
had to leave the RAF, having threatened to destroy my aircraft.
Back to topic though, these personnel were not heroes and no amount of roaring from VT1 will change that. Now for heroes we only need to look at the repatriation service from Basra last night. Incidentally what wasn't mentioned on the news (certainly not the BBC) was the fact that the parade was mortared just as they were dismissed.
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Does anyone out there really believe that the RN decided to go to the tabloids to put their side of the story, while the Government were informed but kept out of the decision loop? Is there any precedent for such an action from a branch of the military? Can a government that has been obsessive in its relationship with and manipulation of the media during its 10 years in office really not have had any involvement in this process?
Clearly the Second Sea Lord has either volunteered to take the rap, or been ordered to - if he gets promoted & knighted in the next year that will answer that question.
There can be no doubt that going to the press was a high level political decision, as well as a response to the media frenzy which was offering big cheques for the stories. Sadly the whole series of events, from their avoidable detention through to the current situation, has brought shame and humiliation to the individuals, the RN and the wider armed forces, the UK as a whole and last but not least, the Government.
The 15 were right not to fight when they were taken by the Iranians, that would have resulted in many deaths and possibly a wider military conflict, but they should not have been in such an exposed position. Their conduct as prisoners, whilst not admirable, is pretty much in line with current CAC training. The UK government was a toothless Lion during the diplomatic process, but then Iran held all the cards. The UN Security Council's failure to robustly support the UK, which was carrying out a UN sponsored mission, was also lamentable. Iran achieved a propaganda coup with its benevolent and merciful release of illegally held hostages. Finally, the decision to allow the ex-hostages to sell their story has raised the whole affair to the highest levels of farce. The RN which once ruled the waves and won at Trafalgar is now a laughing stock throughout the world. In the year that we commemorate the re-capture of the Falkland Islands, we witness these events. I am saddened to the core by all this.
Nelson must be doing about 2000 rpm in his grave.
Clearly the Second Sea Lord has either volunteered to take the rap, or been ordered to - if he gets promoted & knighted in the next year that will answer that question.
There can be no doubt that going to the press was a high level political decision, as well as a response to the media frenzy which was offering big cheques for the stories. Sadly the whole series of events, from their avoidable detention through to the current situation, has brought shame and humiliation to the individuals, the RN and the wider armed forces, the UK as a whole and last but not least, the Government.
The 15 were right not to fight when they were taken by the Iranians, that would have resulted in many deaths and possibly a wider military conflict, but they should not have been in such an exposed position. Their conduct as prisoners, whilst not admirable, is pretty much in line with current CAC training. The UK government was a toothless Lion during the diplomatic process, but then Iran held all the cards. The UN Security Council's failure to robustly support the UK, which was carrying out a UN sponsored mission, was also lamentable. Iran achieved a propaganda coup with its benevolent and merciful release of illegally held hostages. Finally, the decision to allow the ex-hostages to sell their story has raised the whole affair to the highest levels of farce. The RN which once ruled the waves and won at Trafalgar is now a laughing stock throughout the world. In the year that we commemorate the re-capture of the Falkland Islands, we witness these events. I am saddened to the core by all this.
Nelson must be doing about 2000 rpm in his grave.
The RN which once ruled the waves and won at Trafalgar is now a laughing stock throughout the world. In the year that we commemorate the re-capture of the Falkland Islands, we witness these events. I am saddened to the core by all this.
Nelson must be doing about 2000 rpm in his grave.
Nelson must be doing about 2000 rpm in his grave.
An uncle now in his late 80's and a very proud ex-Jack who joined up just pre-WW2 and did 20+ years, served most of WW2 as an Oerlikon gunner in the RN Dog Boat fleet in the Med and later on did 2 x Royal Tournament's in the Field Gun Comp.
A proud old man's reaction to the events of the past few weeks are unprintable......