AAC Flying Pay change

[AHQHI656SQN]

CB & M4, thank you for your words. I will have to call the man in Glasgow, I'm moving house this week, so it will have to wait a day or two before I get time to put my full attention to it.
Once again, thank you.
Tom

[Ron Fenest]

Apologies for bringing this thread back up but I think that now, some months on from the flying pay debarcle, we are beginning to see the results.

To quote a source very close to the problem "The AAC is haemorrhaging aircrew at an unsustainable rate"

any truth ? thoughts ?

Personally there aren't many people that I speak to that AREN'T looking to bug out at the first opportunity but then again I move in old circles.

And a couple of questions if you don't mind, can anyone confirm or deny that from the day someone signs off their flying pay is stopped ? If it is stopped does anyone know how PES(A) is dealt with ?, I'm assuming/hoping that it is unchanged.

many thanks

[Ernesto Guevara]

Ron,

No need to apologise as its about time this thread continued. At the time of the announcement the 'powers that be' were surprised in the lack of any real backlash. This is easily explained as the pilots are not daft enough to storm into an office and sign off without further investigation and planning. I would suggest from those I have contact with that the planning stage is now over and action will take place in the very near future when time bars finish, 22 years done or job offers arrive.

Regards the stoppage of flying pay. I read today an article on specialist pay in general which stated "the day a soldier commits to PVR, specialist pay is immediately reduced to 50% of the current rate".

With regards to PES my assumption (is the mother of all ........) is as PES is not specialist pay, but basic pay for those on the scheme, it should be unaffected.

Good luck to all

[unkind43]

Ron, A friend of mine signed off this week and his flying pay has been halved.
He was on continuance, had he been coming to the end of his 22 then it would not have happened, shafted...... you decide

[Ron Fenest]

Cheers for that unkind, do you know what the required notice is when on continuance or LSL ? 3/6/12 months ? sorry for asking questions I should really know the answers to but the company I'm off to have offered to cover the loss of flying pay while I'm doing time and I don't want to ask officially just yet.

[ralphmalph]

As we near to the official celebrations of the 50th Birthday of the AAC things are not all as they seem.

Granted if you work or live within a 20 mile radius of Wallop things generally all appear rosy....life continues at its normal pace.

However away from the "paradise" that is Wallop things are decidedly worse. I have spoken to many friends over the past 4 months about all aspects of work/home life/whats on Tv!. And all apart from one are throughly dissolusioned about life now and what life is offered for the future. I applaud those who wish to vote with their feet and improve their lot.
If I were not constrained by a Training Return of Service I would be going now. The old clapped out line that people should wait till the pension point is I feel very outdated. Across all services people are deploying and fighting at a steady Op tempo. Gone are the days of the Cold War warrior who got his pension because staying in would not generally require masses of time away in a dangerous place.
The FRI scheme when in place reinforced this, why give someone money when they are 5yrs from a nice pension????...if they are canny they are going to grit teeth and serve the last 5yrs anyway.
There are many young(ish) people serving who have deployed on ops and done the business, the thought of doing that for the next 10yrs does not appeal.
Why not bang out early and start the run towards a new job and pension?

The change in flying pay rules will just make it easier for people to make up their minds to leave. And before the standard "there has never been a exodus from the corps" line, we have not been deployed in so many places and for such an extended period for many years. People are getting threaders!!

It will be interesting to see the proportion of serving/ex members of the Corps present on Saturday. Those who have left the Corps will probably be sporting rose tinted specs, those still serving will probably have a different taste in their mouths!

[Ernesto Guevara]

Ron,

Just to confirm. By pure coincidence I was reading a leaflet on Specialist pay today. It stated that any soldier who PVR's whilst in receipt of specialist pay will have their specialist pay reduced to 50% immediately.

I can only assume that this will not affect PES as this is not specialist pay.

I found the latest Soldier article on the AAC very amusing. A two page pilot recruitment article. They seem desperate to recruit more pilots. I wonder why?

It would be interesting to see if they could muster a two page article on AAC Pilot retention schemes.

Goog Luck

Che'

[ChristopherRobin]

if I can add just another dollop onto the developing sh1t sandwich...

there is a DIN out in the last week that affects your pension. Anyone on AFPS75 in particular. Those of you who are on the old pension scheme will know that after your initial pension point (IPP) you can commute up to 50% of the pension and take it on leaving as a lump sum. However, due to the Finance Act 2004, which took effect on 1 Apr 2006, you can only commute up to 25% of the pension accrued after 1 Apr 2006.

So your lump sum will be less, and the longer past 1 Apr 2006 you stay in the more it will be affected!

Oh and the DIN helpfully points out that if this would have affected your decision to switch to the new pension under the offer to transfer and you would now like to revisit that decision then...you can't!

Naturallement it doesn't affect my decision as I have about 10 months to push.

And another combat indicator that things are going awry? People giving 7 months' notice to leave are being told they may be retained for 12 months. Broon Street want 12 months notice so they can plan their way - a noble sentiment - except that giving them 12 months costs you 50% of your flying pay for those extra 5 months! To be fair to them, they are working on a plan whereby you give 12 months notice but don't take the paycut until 7 months to run, but don't hold your breath that this can be achieved soon.

Still look on the bright side - at least we never got offered the collossal FRI that the RN and RAF got to tempt us away from leaving at the earliest opportunity eh?

[unkind43]

Ron, tis 6 months notice on continuance, if you take into account terminal leave (28 days), resettlement (6 weeks, I think) and any remaining priv leave this can be as little as 3 months left to serve.

Be aware that there is a rule that a new employer can only pay you 28 days pay whilst still serving. I know that some are prepared to bend this rule or offer a golden handshake but the more scrupulous tend to stick to letter of the law.

CR, ref the retention, a guy signed off the same time as me and has only served 4 years of the five that he committed for, result = pay back 50K..... retention...I don't think so.

43

[Ron Fenest]

Unkind

Many thanks for the info it's really useful and has put my mind at rest.

[Ron Fenest]

Just out of interest the main reason I posted on here, other than confirming info for my own rapid departure was as follows: I was phoning some mates today (yeah, I've got some) to see who was heading off to MW for the big party at the weekend. I spoke to 6 different people, all of them very experienced guys and most in quite specialist positions...surprisingly every single one of them was planning to leave in the next 6-18 months and none of them had yet informed their CoC.
.
I was a little taken aback as a couple of these lads were greener than a green thing from greentown only a couple of years ago.
.
Funnily enough one of the reasons seems to be the fact that there is no option to change to AFPS 05 on potential offer of continuance/Veng and this is one of the main reasons I'm off. 3 years ago I was told categorically by the AAC that there was absolutely no chance of continuance/LSL/PESA etc etc and I was advised by pay staff to remain on AFPS 75, this of course was the sensible option when leaving after 22. Units were briefed by MCM that there were far too many pilots and that the AAC was hoping to get rid of a large number over a short space of time.
.
Now, in a complete reversal it looks as though you can stay in as long as you like providing you still have the use of both arms (legs optional).
I can't be the only person whose done the maths on this. In my case there is a potential difference (in todays money) at age 55 of £35k on my lump sum and £8k a year in pension, I've been conservative in my figures.
.
Having done that quick calc I figure I'm better off jumping ship to a job with a good payrise and taking my immediate £15k ish a year pension for the hell of it. It gives me the chance of a second final salary pension. Over a period of 12 years I've worked out I'll be about £200k better off for it, thats my house paid for thankyou very much.
.
The uncertainty in all things AAC over the past few years made it a very easy decision for me.

[mutleyfour]

Ron
Its a very sad yet true tale that seemes to be the result of someones incompetence. I remember the option to transfer and the word from puzzle palace at the time was that we were 80 odd pilots overmanned. Even then I was puzzling as to where they were/are.
It seems once again that personnel come way down the chain after machine in the AAC which saddens me greatly. As an NCO I can only best achieve a level 22 on PES and take the hit on commutation.

My question is does anyone at the Directorate when confronted with these issues ever reach out to units for advice? Has anyone of you ever been consulted or asked what would make you stay? I very much doubt it.

I would suggest that there are those that are combatants on this problem that only seek financial gain for those in their immediate circle and do not look into the shoddy way the majority are treated and in particular us NCO's.

To offer PES to a WO1 for instance whom for arguments sake is a level 7 on enhanced rate of flying pay will only match his present salary. Hardly an incentive especially as a Sgt given the same scheme whom would join in the mid teens can accelerate annually.

May I suggest to those that have any involvement in this matter might like to take a step out of the office and ask the coal face what it would like to see remedy the situation?

[Ron Fenest]

Muttley,

You might as well start. In your eyes what would it take to remedy the situation?

For me a good start would be to uncap SNCOs on PES (A). Why ? Well although level 22 is a decent salary people have a need to feel that they are moving ahead in life, both for personal pride and self-satisfaction. A WO1 on level 22 could potentially sit there for 10-15 years with NO prospect of promotion and NO prospect of a payrise*, I know that this appeals to some people but I regard it as stagnating.

*Annual increases granted

[AHQHI656SQN]

Multey. Last year in AFG our CO at that time sat down with all of the AH aircrew and asked what sort of action would be required to tempt people to stay beyond the 22 yr point. The obvious FRI was mentioned by aircrew, but what was propposed was LSL(A) with an initial 10 year block instead of 5 years, plus striaght onto PES, though nothing was mentioned about changing the level 22 cap.
I thought that had happened accross the Corps, clearly not.

[mutleyfour]

I agree Ron and whilst money talks a great deal some other suggestions that may help are:

A much better co-ordinated system of deployment which allows quality time with loved ones during the immediate weeks before deployment rather than the usual last minute ranges and other niff naff.

A composite support package that looks after families whilst deployed as often they just remain forgotten.

A simple Thank you sometimes works wonders, the manners that I was accustomed to upon joining have long since gone. If a job is completed properly it seems to go unspoken about and yet a job not done well is easily criticised.

A much fairer system of Confidential reporting that includes the reported persons statement at the beginning much similar to the RAF method which enables your own thoughts to be conveyed to the board as well as giving a better indicator to MCM on your aspiritions.

Better accomodation especially the WO's and Sgts Messes which to be honest are some of the worst in the Army.

Esprit De Corps, lets get it back, lets feel part of the team, to feel wanted and important rather than just a number or name which seems the case today.

A newsletter from DAAVN that explains the reasoning to what have become difficult decisions to both make, and recieve, and not just the usual mountaineering and sailing piccies.

Finally to get the information to the men and women in a timely manner. Too often personnel are not being informed of vital career information such as courses available, PES, LSL etc etc and the system of application is stuck in the yesteryears. We live in the time of IT and yet still have to get letters signed, records dispatched to APC Glasgow and chase your own rear to get even the simplest of tasks achieved.

There will be a thousand other things Ron that I have missed and others may expand on but we need to get heads out of the sand and fast.

[mutleyfour]

AHQHI

Sadly the rumours I am hearing are that the level 22 cap hasnt and probably wont be addressed. Something to do with the RAF being asked to downsacle theirs in order to encourage Officer Pilots to take a more career pathed time in the service.

If true then it would indicate that the level of thought to our own particular importance in the Corps has not really been addressed and probably won't be until there are representatives from NCO pilots in DAAVN and not just Officers.

The whole carrot thing with PES just doesnt work for a WO1 pilot whilst capped at Lvl 22 and yet the facitilty to encourage people to stay on would be much greater with an increase even if just a couple of more levels.

[MaroonMan4]

Hey Guys,

Before we go around this one again (although I can understand why someone has posted to get it back onto the front page/back into public domain) just remember that if there was a real, quantifiable shortage that could be proven to bean counters, politicians and those that do hold the purse strings - then you can bet that there would be other retention initiatives put into place (PES(A)/FRIs etc etc).

But whether smoke or mirrors by the Air Corps Personnel departments (and it very rarely is just one individual) or whether there is a genuine surplus of aircrew (or more to the point, the rationalisiation of AH or the projected crews for BRH have indicated a reduction in aircrew requirements) then it is purely market forces that are in force here - just as with any other HR department in other company.

It is interesting to note that if you attempt to transfer to the RAF/RN that you can get an FRI - so there is obviously a little concern there as it is widely known that the other 2 Services are rubbing their hands with glee at the incomptence of leadership and personnel management as more and more course see inter Service transfers.

Despite having its 50th Anniversary as we type, the sad fact is that the Army Air Corps is ripping its heart out and is morally bankrupt. And yet it still expects people to go the extra mile to make it look good and only a year ago it did have credibility as an Operational organisation that was a true force to be reckoned with.

It is now strugglingto keep both man (and women) and machines fit for purpose and therefore when it is threatened (which it will be as AH numbers will get reduced and the very low numbers of BRH will in effect make it nothing but a an 'Army Wing') then there will be very very few people that will actually defend the Corps and its organisation and will welcome change an integration with the RAF and RN that appear to be looking after their aircrew (relatively speaking).

Many happy returns to the Army Air Corps, have a superb party - but my advice would be to make the most of it as you will not be around in the next 10 years, let alone 50.

So - if you dont like what your Corps is doing then stop dripping - everyone knew that it was a 'press to test' exercise and so far you can drip as much as you want, but the PVR figures are not making anyone lose a heart beart or raise any eyebrows. If you think that others leaving may force a situation then you are all playing a waiting game where no one is actually leaving (except those that are being quantified as natural wastage - at the end of their 22). So if it is that bad, get off your @rses, do your licences, look in Flight or look for another career and leave. Having a good chunter on here (same old faces, same old names) is getting you absolutely nowhere as no one cares.

Sad - but that is just the way it is fellas.

[mutleyfour]

MM4

I disagree with your last couple of paragraphs, I may have a rant about conditions etc but as I said on an earlier thread I dont and shouldnt have to leave to make that point.

You're wrong about the press to test as the shortage has already begun and is noticeable in the Squadrons.

lastly if all things in your garden are rosey then I am happy for you but please spare me the like it or lump it routine as its a little repetative in these forums.

[MaroonMan4]

Mutley,

No it is not the 'like it lump it routine' it is (very sadly) the reality routine - since the very first post many months ago ask yourself has anything really changed. Under the freedom of information act (oh yes DIN boys it works both waythis information management malarky) ask to see the PVR figures.

There is absolutley nothing to see, no evidence, no proof, no requirement - you are perceiving shortages and departures from the Service that actually fall into the 'natural wastage' category. It is not my Corps, and I do feel genuinely sorry for you (and trust me I am not being condescending) - but if you look at what is happening with AH (effectively a reduction in the size of the force) and then also compare the numbers of aircrew required for the gazelle and Lynx era to the numbers predicted to operate a BRH fleet you will realise that actually it is not undermanning, but reconfiguring for a future Army Air Corps and therefore natural wastage or people voting with their feet will have to go a long way to get the kind of retention initiatives that have been dreamed off on this thread.

Look around you - look at the fleet 10 years ago - look at the fleet now - and have a look at the fleet in 5-10 years time.........then do the maths and you can see why this thread is falling on fallow ground.

You are speaking to the wrong shepherd!

[HEDP]

Given that the first AH unit trained had in the order of 42-43 aircrew trained of which only 15-ish remain, you would think that the powers that be might have taken note by now. Shame nothing was put in place before the demise of Dishcloth...........