Save The Red Arrows - Sign the Petition
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CM
Well I wasn't going to bother, but I've got another spare few minutes to waste on the fool, so here goes.
1. I didn't try to 'increase the relevance of the Reds by arguing that they all have Ops experience' I merely stated a fact that they have ALL completed operational tours. Now if you think otherwise, I regret you are wrong, so please stop being a fool and arguing otherwise.
2. I wasn't trying to 'increase the relevance of the Reds by arguing that they work so hard (flying six to eight sorties a day-everyday)' That again, is a fact. As I have said time and time again, do get off your bottom and come to Scampton and watch them for yourself. Or better still, if you are who you say you are, get onto Scampton ATC and ask them for the times of the Arrows' slots for the day. Then have the balls to come on here and say sorry.
3. I wasn't trying to 'increase the relevance of the Reds, or endear them to the rest of the military, by stating that they put their family and social lives on hold for a period of time' It is a fact that they lead a very hectic life, particularly during the summer months, being away most weekends etc. It's a fact, thats all.
4. Nver ever did I say that they worked any harder than anyone else in the service, or that they had a more stressfull life or that their families had it harder than any other families. I know that the same pretty much goes for all these days, but these are the facts. And again, if you are who you claim, then you should know that.
If, as you claim, you have known 'many' of the Red Arrows 'over the years' then why are you on here arguing about the number of slots they fly, and all this other stuff? Methinks that you are telling us a big porkie there young rudesprog. In fact, I'm not even sure you are a pilot, Aircrew or even in the Air force, such is your ignorance. Because if you were who you say, then you would know all about the FJ selection world, and where the 'best' go and where they don't go!
I you are really going back to the sandpit for another 4 - 5 months, then you are clearly NOT a FJ jockey, but some bitter, and jealous pilot who simply 'wasn't good enough' Well join the rest of us 'rude child' and get over it. I wasn't good enough, along with thousands of others. That dosn't mean we don't make a valuable contribution or we should slag off our fellow pilots just because we didn't make their grade. Do you take the same view as say the Nimrod Display Pilot? or the Harrier and F3 display guys? Now you may just see why you are being a little bit silly and need to grow up and join the real world.
Right, had enough now, endex. Do try to grow up just a tadge, there's a good boy!
Kind regards
TSM
Well I wasn't going to bother, but I've got another spare few minutes to waste on the fool, so here goes.
1. I didn't try to 'increase the relevance of the Reds by arguing that they all have Ops experience' I merely stated a fact that they have ALL completed operational tours. Now if you think otherwise, I regret you are wrong, so please stop being a fool and arguing otherwise.
2. I wasn't trying to 'increase the relevance of the Reds by arguing that they work so hard (flying six to eight sorties a day-everyday)' That again, is a fact. As I have said time and time again, do get off your bottom and come to Scampton and watch them for yourself. Or better still, if you are who you say you are, get onto Scampton ATC and ask them for the times of the Arrows' slots for the day. Then have the balls to come on here and say sorry.
3. I wasn't trying to 'increase the relevance of the Reds, or endear them to the rest of the military, by stating that they put their family and social lives on hold for a period of time' It is a fact that they lead a very hectic life, particularly during the summer months, being away most weekends etc. It's a fact, thats all.
4. Nver ever did I say that they worked any harder than anyone else in the service, or that they had a more stressfull life or that their families had it harder than any other families. I know that the same pretty much goes for all these days, but these are the facts. And again, if you are who you claim, then you should know that.
If, as you claim, you have known 'many' of the Red Arrows 'over the years' then why are you on here arguing about the number of slots they fly, and all this other stuff? Methinks that you are telling us a big porkie there young rudesprog. In fact, I'm not even sure you are a pilot, Aircrew or even in the Air force, such is your ignorance. Because if you were who you say, then you would know all about the FJ selection world, and where the 'best' go and where they don't go!
I you are really going back to the sandpit for another 4 - 5 months, then you are clearly NOT a FJ jockey, but some bitter, and jealous pilot who simply 'wasn't good enough' Well join the rest of us 'rude child' and get over it. I wasn't good enough, along with thousands of others. That dosn't mean we don't make a valuable contribution or we should slag off our fellow pilots just because we didn't make their grade. Do you take the same view as say the Nimrod Display Pilot? or the Harrier and F3 display guys? Now you may just see why you are being a little bit silly and need to grow up and join the real world.
Right, had enough now, endex. Do try to grow up just a tadge, there's a good boy!
Kind regards
TSM
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rudekid,
Are you really a pilot in the Royal Air Force?
I would have thought that any young pilot (but especially a one in the RAF) would aspire to join RAFAT, why not you?
The Winco
Are you really a pilot in the Royal Air Force?
I would have thought that any young pilot (but especially a one in the RAF) would aspire to join RAFAT, why not you?
The Winco
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TSM
Well done mate! I'll sleep soundly tonight!
But wait! An awful thought has just struck me. Perhaps he is undermining the Reds on purpose, intent on usurping them and forming his very own aerobatic team, THE RUDE ARROWS!
Now I'll have nightmares.
Well done mate! I'll sleep soundly tonight!
But wait! An awful thought has just struck me. Perhaps he is undermining the Reds on purpose, intent on usurping them and forming his very own aerobatic team, THE RUDE ARROWS!
Now I'll have nightmares.
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Winco
Yes and not so young I'm afraid!
As I mentioned:
I think that probably all baby RAF pilots have looked at the Reds and thought about becoming one. Luckily for me and them, the decision was made for me.
Maybe it's easy to say from here, but I genuinely don't believe I'd have wanted to join the Reds even if I was a FJ mate. It certainly wasn't anything more than a fleeting thought for me, even when I was still (potentially) in the bracket. I know there are lots of guys from the FJ fleets who feel the same way.
Don't confuse my apathy for the Reds with some personal dislike. As I've said, they're fantastic to watch and I respect their skills. This of course doesn't mean that I have to bow to the likes of TSM, 3.14 or Clockwork Mouse and offer my unqualified support to the RAFAT. Like it or not, the Reds don't have this unqualified support from a sizeable portion of their fellow servicemen.
It's interesting to watch a thread degenerate into insults, but that demonstrates the intellectual abilities of some. How very fatuous.
Yes and not so young I'm afraid!
As I mentioned:
I'm not jealous, nor would I meet the skill level if I met the eligibility criteria.
Maybe it's easy to say from here, but I genuinely don't believe I'd have wanted to join the Reds even if I was a FJ mate. It certainly wasn't anything more than a fleeting thought for me, even when I was still (potentially) in the bracket. I know there are lots of guys from the FJ fleets who feel the same way.
Don't confuse my apathy for the Reds with some personal dislike. As I've said, they're fantastic to watch and I respect their skills. This of course doesn't mean that I have to bow to the likes of TSM, 3.14 or Clockwork Mouse and offer my unqualified support to the RAFAT. Like it or not, the Reds don't have this unqualified support from a sizeable portion of their fellow servicemen.
It's interesting to watch a thread degenerate into insults, but that demonstrates the intellectual abilities of some. How very fatuous.
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CM
I knew it was too good to be true - he's back! And now he's telling the Winco chap that he never wanted to be a Red Arrow. Next thing he'll be telling us he didn't want to be in the RAF but was 'forced' into it by a big boy - shame.
Ah well, guess we'll be in for another days worth tomorrow! Think I'll go flying instead of reading this stuff tomorrow!
TSM
I knew it was too good to be true - he's back! And now he's telling the Winco chap that he never wanted to be a Red Arrow. Next thing he'll be telling us he didn't want to be in the RAF but was 'forced' into it by a big boy - shame.
Ah well, guess we'll be in for another days worth tomorrow! Think I'll go flying instead of reading this stuff tomorrow!
TSM
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I was always told that the Reds pulled in a great deal of spending for the UK aerospace industry...let British wasteofSpace pay for them then.
As a taxpayer I am fed up subsidising industry indirectly. As aircrew, I am fed up getting crap we didn't want foisted upon us. Look at the Merlin
As a taxpayer I am fed up subsidising industry indirectly. As aircrew, I am fed up getting crap we didn't want foisted upon us. Look at the Merlin
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Wokka,
I would agree with you inpart, however, I would rarther subsidise BAe than see it spent on an asylum group or refugee camp, and unfortunately there lies our problem. This government has seen fit to plough more money into the likes of offenders, refugees et al, than into the armed forces. It is, without question deplorable, but those are the facts I regret, and I believe that the reletively small amount of money that goes to keep the Red Arrows flying is worth it many times over. As for not getting the kit you want - thats another forum, for which you have my sympathy Sir!
But you must know that any money that is saved by disbanding the Red Arrows will most definately NOT go back into service funds. It will go to building a new prison or an asylum holding centre for those who least deserve it, and if for no other reason than that, I sincerely hope that the Red Arrows stay.
As for the comments about the right kit for deployments, I would agree 100%, but as I have said, losing the Arrows will not help with that at all.
rudekid
I find that hard to believe that you did not want to become a Red Arrows pilot! Why on earth not? Nevertheless, I hear your comments, but would suggest that not liking an individual(s) within the team is no reason to dislike the team in general. To a large group of the public, the Red Arrows ARE the RAF. Now you and I and the rest of us all know that's not the case, but a lot of British tax payers are of that opinion and I don't think that we should deny them the opportunity of seeing one part or the RAF (granted, only a small part) performing for the people that pay yours and their wages, do you? After all, if we lost the support of the public, then it really is night night!!
The Winco
I would agree with you inpart, however, I would rarther subsidise BAe than see it spent on an asylum group or refugee camp, and unfortunately there lies our problem. This government has seen fit to plough more money into the likes of offenders, refugees et al, than into the armed forces. It is, without question deplorable, but those are the facts I regret, and I believe that the reletively small amount of money that goes to keep the Red Arrows flying is worth it many times over. As for not getting the kit you want - thats another forum, for which you have my sympathy Sir!
But you must know that any money that is saved by disbanding the Red Arrows will most definately NOT go back into service funds. It will go to building a new prison or an asylum holding centre for those who least deserve it, and if for no other reason than that, I sincerely hope that the Red Arrows stay.
As for the comments about the right kit for deployments, I would agree 100%, but as I have said, losing the Arrows will not help with that at all.
rudekid
I find that hard to believe that you did not want to become a Red Arrows pilot! Why on earth not? Nevertheless, I hear your comments, but would suggest that not liking an individual(s) within the team is no reason to dislike the team in general. To a large group of the public, the Red Arrows ARE the RAF. Now you and I and the rest of us all know that's not the case, but a lot of British tax payers are of that opinion and I don't think that we should deny them the opportunity of seeing one part or the RAF (granted, only a small part) performing for the people that pay yours and their wages, do you? After all, if we lost the support of the public, then it really is night night!!
The Winco
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Winco
I see your point and understand your premise. Also thanks for putting it across in a reasonable manner.
However!
I don't agree the Reds are one of the things we should be fighting hard to keep. In an ideal world, we would be able to afford all things shiny and nice and maintain a decent front line capability. Now, we'll probably disagree about how much the Reds cost per annum, but let's for the purposes of argument say they have a direct cost of 2 million quid a year. They also have an indirect cost of the manpower involved and the skills drain they take from the front line. However, I don't believe that the costs really make an awful lot of difference to my viewpoint.
With the sad fact that the MOD is under siege from the treasury, looking to attribute all costs to CPF to retain some level of budgetary control. Conversely, the treasury is trying to squeeze the life out of the MOD and claw back every penny it possibly can to waste on the NHS and the payment of rent for 6-child-singlemothers.
Now, in the world of politics, it may be that the Reds are held up by treasury as something that doesn't deliver any warfighting capability. Well, we would argue, what about the recruitment potential and the public goodwill? Not tangible, no stats and therefore irrelevant, I suspect would be the Treasury answer.
Consider though, that the MOD maybe able to justify the loss of the RAFAT by juggling the competing programmes and prioritising which ones it needs most. It could be that the Reds maybe 'traded' as a give to obtain/retain a more valuable programme. Given the argument that the MOD and the Chiefs haven't got time to fight every battle, nevermind win them all this doesn't seem to be so far fetched. In this (granted limited) scenario, the real cost of the Reds becomes irrelevant as they could be traded at whatever price we wanted. It doesn't matter that the cost of the Reds would never be recouped by the MOD. It matters that the quid-pro-qou maybe a much more relevant (lifesaving even?) measure.
Sadly, in the current climate we're faced with the grim realities of cost. Value is nothing, but we must work out what we value most and fight to keep it. If we were not fighting two wars and deployed in other theatres of 'operation' I might argue differently as to the value of the RAFAT. However, if this was my league, they'd soon be relegated!
I reall don't have a personal gripe with the RAFAT (one bloke aside ) but I think their current value is limited. I would need to see a very convincing argument for me to change my mind. The ones already put forward, especially by the likes of TSM, CM and 3.14, don't come close IMHO.
And I stand by my view, doubt though you may, that apart from about 30 seconds at RIAT in 93, I never wanted to be in the Reds. Maybe I had a six sense about my lack of ability
Regards
RK
I see your point and understand your premise. Also thanks for putting it across in a reasonable manner.
However!
I don't agree the Reds are one of the things we should be fighting hard to keep. In an ideal world, we would be able to afford all things shiny and nice and maintain a decent front line capability. Now, we'll probably disagree about how much the Reds cost per annum, but let's for the purposes of argument say they have a direct cost of 2 million quid a year. They also have an indirect cost of the manpower involved and the skills drain they take from the front line. However, I don't believe that the costs really make an awful lot of difference to my viewpoint.
With the sad fact that the MOD is under siege from the treasury, looking to attribute all costs to CPF to retain some level of budgetary control. Conversely, the treasury is trying to squeeze the life out of the MOD and claw back every penny it possibly can to waste on the NHS and the payment of rent for 6-child-singlemothers.
Now, in the world of politics, it may be that the Reds are held up by treasury as something that doesn't deliver any warfighting capability. Well, we would argue, what about the recruitment potential and the public goodwill? Not tangible, no stats and therefore irrelevant, I suspect would be the Treasury answer.
Consider though, that the MOD maybe able to justify the loss of the RAFAT by juggling the competing programmes and prioritising which ones it needs most. It could be that the Reds maybe 'traded' as a give to obtain/retain a more valuable programme. Given the argument that the MOD and the Chiefs haven't got time to fight every battle, nevermind win them all this doesn't seem to be so far fetched. In this (granted limited) scenario, the real cost of the Reds becomes irrelevant as they could be traded at whatever price we wanted. It doesn't matter that the cost of the Reds would never be recouped by the MOD. It matters that the quid-pro-qou maybe a much more relevant (lifesaving even?) measure.
Sadly, in the current climate we're faced with the grim realities of cost. Value is nothing, but we must work out what we value most and fight to keep it. If we were not fighting two wars and deployed in other theatres of 'operation' I might argue differently as to the value of the RAFAT. However, if this was my league, they'd soon be relegated!
I reall don't have a personal gripe with the RAFAT (one bloke aside
) but I think their current value is limited. I would need to see a very convincing argument for me to change my mind. The ones already put forward, especially by the likes of TSM, CM and 3.14, don't come close IMHO. And I stand by my view, doubt though you may, that apart from about 30 seconds at RIAT in 93, I never wanted to be in the Reds. Maybe I had a six sense about my lack of ability
Regards
RK
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RudeKid: Well, we would argue, what about the recruitment potential and the public goodwill? Not tangible, no stats and therefore irrelevant, I suspect would be the Treasury answer.
Given that GB wants to be the next PM, he will restrict his actions to PR positive stunts ... getting rid of the Reds would probably be v bad for his campaign. TB will not want to be remembered as the PM who ditched them on his way out of the door, which, I'm sure guarantees their existence for the time being.
Let's not forget that you can't stop and start the Reds without a fairly major project ... these skillsets/knowledge fade and once it's gone, it's gone. Much like the argument against Low Flying - it has to be practised.
I suspect that the wars in question will not go on indefinitely (my hat is already on my plate), so my guess is that ditching the Reds would be considered a knee-jerk reaction and thus discounted for now (given the political fallout).
But hey, who knows? I know that they're quite happy to gaff off 1.8million signatories to the anti-road toll petition, so what is to stop them binning the Reds?
Question
Do you see the government getting rid of BBMF on a lack of relevence argument? (not tangible, no stats, not relevant ...?).
For me, the same argument applies. It makes perfect common sense, but goes against the ground swell of public opinion (regardless of cost). If they really want to cut the fat off the armed forces, there are plenty of "irrelevant" outfits, but some of these are a step too far for the general public.
The ONLY question here really is, "how much do our current government care what the public actually think?"
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Rudekid,
I think we will have to retain our own opinions and disagree on this. My fundamental point in all of this is that if we get rid of them, the money will NOT go to the troops at the front line. Indeed, it will not go to the troops at all or even go back to the defence budget. It will go to support one of this governments many 'more PC' groups - and we all know what I'm refering to. If we get rid of the Red Arrows, it will be the thin end of a very very big wedge.
What will be next? BBMF perhaps? Lets face it, (and I hate to say it) but most public people would prefer to see the Red Arrows over the BBMF, so why not get rid of them and save some more money for our PC causes? What about the Army's Blue Eagles (not sure about the Navy!)
That is what I am trying to impress upon you Sir. Once it starts, it will not stop. You must have seen it with the civilianisation of the RAF alone? Remember when it was just going to be admin staff as civvies? Then it went to the odd storeman and now look at it. Civvies training pilots, running bays, in charge of MT units. I wouldn't be surprised if there are more civvies working in the RAF than servicemen. It has to stop.
It is like a spreading cancer; it is the constant erosion of 'all things military', replaced by civilians and nice 'PC projects'. Please don't support that cause by suggesting that this government could save more money by getting rid of the Arrows, and the money going to better causes. Unfortunately, your better causes (and mine), are NOT the same as the governments better causes, and the money will, without doubt, go to those projects that you and I (and most reasonable people in this country) detest.
I am of the opinion that it is incumbant on us all to protect our aviation heritage and the pleasures and privilages that we have and enjoy today. There are plenty of people out there who are very anti-military in every sense of the word. Please don't add fuel to their argument by fighting in-house to get rid of the Red Arrows (or BBMF) You can see it now in the papers 'Even the RAF want to get rid of the Arrows!'
I only hope that this government are out of office soon and Cameron restores some common sense back to British Poilitcs, although I have my doubts aboout that also (Oh dear, I'm begining to sound a bit like a politician now!)
The Winco
I think we will have to retain our own opinions and disagree on this. My fundamental point in all of this is that if we get rid of them, the money will NOT go to the troops at the front line. Indeed, it will not go to the troops at all or even go back to the defence budget. It will go to support one of this governments many 'more PC' groups - and we all know what I'm refering to. If we get rid of the Red Arrows, it will be the thin end of a very very big wedge.
What will be next? BBMF perhaps? Lets face it, (and I hate to say it) but most public people would prefer to see the Red Arrows over the BBMF, so why not get rid of them and save some more money for our PC causes? What about the Army's Blue Eagles (not sure about the Navy!)
That is what I am trying to impress upon you Sir. Once it starts, it will not stop. You must have seen it with the civilianisation of the RAF alone? Remember when it was just going to be admin staff as civvies? Then it went to the odd storeman and now look at it. Civvies training pilots, running bays, in charge of MT units. I wouldn't be surprised if there are more civvies working in the RAF than servicemen. It has to stop.
It is like a spreading cancer; it is the constant erosion of 'all things military', replaced by civilians and nice 'PC projects'. Please don't support that cause by suggesting that this government could save more money by getting rid of the Arrows, and the money going to better causes. Unfortunately, your better causes (and mine), are NOT the same as the governments better causes, and the money will, without doubt, go to those projects that you and I (and most reasonable people in this country) detest.
I am of the opinion that it is incumbant on us all to protect our aviation heritage and the pleasures and privilages that we have and enjoy today. There are plenty of people out there who are very anti-military in every sense of the word. Please don't add fuel to their argument by fighting in-house to get rid of the Red Arrows (or BBMF) You can see it now in the papers 'Even the RAF want to get rid of the Arrows!'
I only hope that this government are out of office soon and Cameron restores some common sense back to British Poilitcs, although I have my doubts aboout that also (Oh dear, I'm begining to sound a bit like a politician now!)
The Winco
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I don't think that there is any argument against keeping all the RAFAT/BBMF/etc organisations in a World where money is no problem and I understand that being apathetic to their loss is likely to make it more likely.
However, do I really care? Does it really make a difference to me? If the Government does not want to directly fund these oases of pride and excellence, then we should not strip funds/personnel from the front line to maintain them. I love watching the things fly, but would much rather the boys in their crappy WIMICs had the ballistic protection they need. It should not be a choice, but realistically it is - we have been put in this position by years of chronic underspending. It is the same funding argument echoed on many threads on pprune - 'what is the priority?'.
The Reds and BBMF, et al, are great and it will be a shame. We should keep them, I want to keep them, but not at the expense of something else on the Defence shopping list. I can see that Rudekid has upset a few of you, but I do think that his comments have been taken the wrong way. The relevance argument is key to everything we do - the 'so what?' questions must define our priorities.
Even if the money saved does not stay within Defence, so what? As a father, taxpayer and voter, in my view there are other priorities for the money (although of course I weep for the waste and allocations within some Government departments).
Just my penny's worth...
However, do I really care? Does it really make a difference to me? If the Government does not want to directly fund these oases of pride and excellence, then we should not strip funds/personnel from the front line to maintain them. I love watching the things fly, but would much rather the boys in their crappy WIMICs had the ballistic protection they need. It should not be a choice, but realistically it is - we have been put in this position by years of chronic underspending. It is the same funding argument echoed on many threads on pprune - 'what is the priority?'.
The Reds and BBMF, et al, are great and it will be a shame. We should keep them, I want to keep them, but not at the expense of something else on the Defence shopping list. I can see that Rudekid has upset a few of you, but I do think that his comments have been taken the wrong way. The relevance argument is key to everything we do - the 'so what?' questions must define our priorities.
Even if the money saved does not stay within Defence, so what? As a father, taxpayer and voter, in my view there are other priorities for the money (although of course I weep for the waste and allocations within some Government departments).
Just my penny's worth...
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South Bound,
The thing is, as the Winco says, the few million £ you save from the Red Arrows or BBMf WILL NOT get spent on body armour, better boots, kit et al. It will, as he says, go to keeping more asylum seekers in better accomodation than we ourselves have, and to provide even better living conditions and more facilities for prisoners etc. I do think he is right.
My late Mother in Law was one invited on a tour of her local jail as part of some WI outing. She came back appalled and disgusted at the conditions she saw the cons' living in; Cable TV, Gym, Internet, vocational training, Sports facilities, good food, heated Cells, the lot - it was all there. Now as I recall, those of us who have lived out in the sand pit for any length of time, would have given a testical for some of those sort of comforts (sorry, can't spell lucxouries!)
Whether you like the Arrows and/or the BBMF, I don't think we should get blinkered into thinking that any savings made there will find there ways down to you and I - it 'aint gonner happen!
Kind regards
TSM
The thing is, as the Winco says, the few million £ you save from the Red Arrows or BBMf WILL NOT get spent on body armour, better boots, kit et al. It will, as he says, go to keeping more asylum seekers in better accomodation than we ourselves have, and to provide even better living conditions and more facilities for prisoners etc. I do think he is right.
My late Mother in Law was one invited on a tour of her local jail as part of some WI outing. She came back appalled and disgusted at the conditions she saw the cons' living in; Cable TV, Gym, Internet, vocational training, Sports facilities, good food, heated Cells, the lot - it was all there. Now as I recall, those of us who have lived out in the sand pit for any length of time, would have given a testical for some of those sort of comforts (sorry, can't spell lucxouries!)
Whether you like the Arrows and/or the BBMF, I don't think we should get blinkered into thinking that any savings made there will find there ways down to you and I - it 'aint gonner happen!
Kind regards
TSM
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Suppose I am just a democratic idealist and think we should let our priorities in each area of government determine where we spend our loot. I am equally as frustrated as everyone else with the waste, but something has to give eventually and I don't see GB freeing up cash from other departments to keep the Reds flying. Which is a shame, because they are sooooooo prettyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy....
As has been said on this and many other threads saving money in one area will not provide kit and aircraft in another, also what will those pilots do when returned to front line service, as has been widely discussed there are not enough aircraft for the task, or they are to old or no spares, so exactly what are these pilots going to fly. I know that they can at least relieve some of their fellow aircrew.
Slightly of topic but also within Pprune are comments regarding new equipment that the forces asked for and are being delivered, but not in time to help in current areas of war with there are crys of cancel/ged rid use the money for AT/SH FJ etc, and in the same breath people bleat that they are using old/insifficient equipment that is falling apart and why can we not have new equipment, sorry you either want new equipemnt as quick as it can be bought on line/made operational and in numbers to make a difference for some time to come, or you want to try and keep what you have knowing that cancellation of anything new will not improve your current position one jot.
Slightly of topic but also within Pprune are comments regarding new equipment that the forces asked for and are being delivered, but not in time to help in current areas of war with there are crys of cancel/ged rid use the money for AT/SH FJ etc, and in the same breath people bleat that they are using old/insifficient equipment that is falling apart and why can we not have new equipment, sorry you either want new equipemnt as quick as it can be bought on line/made operational and in numbers to make a difference for some time to come, or you want to try and keep what you have knowing that cancellation of anything new will not improve your current position one jot.
Join Date: Jan 2007
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I think it is most peoples considered opinion that getting rid of RAFAT, BBMF, et al will not result in more kit for the guys at the pointy end , and a lot of this deficiency is not due lack of funds but logistic ineptitude in the MOD .
Why do we fight wars ? usually to preserve our way of life, and values, or in certain instances because we are told to with a lack of veracity. In the former reasons , surely the enjoyment of having luxurys like RAFAT and BBMF, other wise whats the point.
my daughter has made a career choice of RAF due in part to the inspiration of RAFAT and BBMF and the esprit de corp these engender
her exposure to the realities hasnt killed her entusiasm so far
Why do we fight wars ? usually to preserve our way of life, and values, or in certain instances because we are told to with a lack of veracity. In the former reasons , surely the enjoyment of having luxurys like RAFAT and BBMF, other wise whats the point.
my daughter has made a career choice of RAF due in part to the inspiration of RAFAT and BBMF and the esprit de corp these engender
her exposure to the realities hasnt killed her entusiasm so far