RAF Meltdown - Has it begun?

[Bluntend]

Originally Posted by RETDPI

...I therefore joined the rising numbers of those also getting out of a country whose traditional cultural values are being remorselessly undermined and abandoned by those in support of other agendas.

Ditto here, hence the move down under. It seems there has been quite an exodus, not just from the Service but from the country as a whole. Sad really when you consider that most of us joined up not just for the pay but to actually serve a country we are now more than happy to abandon to its fate.

One thing I find indicative of the rapid demise in the RAF is not just the number of people submitting their PVR paperwork but those who are so keen to get out they are leaving a couple of years ahead of an option point. For all intents and purposes, these people are paying to get out of the mob.

[The Helpful Stacker]

Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator

Chewing out, just because you can, is a symptom that needs to be addressed.

Fully agree with you. There seems to be far to much passing the buck when when things go wrong when lack of leadership/information is one of the main reasons mistakes happen.

A very young SAC MT driver at a certain North Hampshire helicopter unit was recently charged for turning up at a uniform check parade late, even though the lad in question turned up at the time proclaimed by the many posters around the section, of which he managed to get a copy. A word-of-mouth change to times had been made but unfortunately the chap was away at the time.

The hearing officer advised him before the charge was read not to bother fighting it as it would just make things worse, surly not the correct procedure for such things?

Ahhh, Odious, the unit that just loves to charge. (But then again you don't even have to be charged at Odious to find one of your personnel sweeping-up on SWO's gang, great use of highly qualified personnel if ever there was one. Wonder how come LEAN has never picked it up?)

[The Helpful Stacker]

Originally Posted by HeliAviator

Touched a raw nerve there? Good to see that your command of the English lanuage is poor to gusting little command. I presume that you are either a junior of senior rank, though to be honest if you are a senior, how on earht did you make it this far? It's the lack of disipline that you obviously embrace that only drives home the death nail of rot, errosion of standards and ethos of the RAF, at all levels. OK, I take your not particulary eliquent point of call, for implying that juniors are "thick" and I retract this as it was printed whilst feeling particularly frustrated with those juniors I unfortunately had to deal with during the day. However, it is particularly disappointing to deal with the more junior memers of our force who constantly day in and day out, display a complete lack of care, awareness, logical thought and respect for service and the Queen. The act of saluting (for instance) is not as a mark of respect to me but to acknowledge the Queens Commsion. I have worked through the ranks to attain my commision, and at no point did I feel that I was belittling myself to pay the required respect. In fact as a junior and senior rank I used to go out of my way ensure that any officer I came into contact with, had to return my excemplary salute. Yes, I am old school but, I embrace modern practice and I am proud the RAF, and of the other services too, though daily I find that the services and those serving in it, particularly the RAF are loosing the plot.

I fully accept that the commission you hold and the Queen which it represents should be acknowledged by personnel and am actually shocked to find an officer who is complaining about 'them' not being saluted!!

As for 'junior personnel' having a lack of interest/awareness in their work, if you (as in the RAF as a whole) treat your workers like idiots then don't be surprised when they act like it or have no real passion for what they are doing.

The continual eroding of the 'perks' of RAF service has I believe meant that many see their service as 'just a job'.

The days of being 'knocked off early for sports' by line managers on quiet days (not that we have many quiet days anymore) have gone because line managers are terrified of making decisions concerning their personnel in case they have to justify it to someone, so the troops are invariably just left staring at the wall until the shift ends. A very minor matter but one of the many straws on the camel's back.

Then of course there is pay.

In the civil sector 'Logistics' is a huge growth industry, with even the experience of a humble stacker in SCAF commanding quite reasonable wages as a Logistics Controller or Warehouse Supervisor. Backed up by a few resettlement courses such as NEBOSH and basic starting wages are starting to hit the 42k mark, small change for an airline pilot but a lot more than the 18k an average SAC supplier is making. But of course part of the system for deciding pay in the RAF if that you are paid an equivalent wage to an equivalent civvy street profession. Which is why Cpl/Sgt stackers who maintain and administer unit supply IT systems as an additional duty to their main duties are still on the lower pay band. Is it any wonder 16 Sgt suppliers have recently turned down their promotion to FSgt as they're heading for the door?

Of course techies are right to say "but if stackers were on the higher pay band it makes a joke of the training we've done", but as long as service pay fails to reflect civilian pay by a long shot the slide towards the door by the experienced personnel will continue and you'll be left with the inexperienced and uninterested ones

Anyway, just a penny worth from me.

[Chugalug2]

Originally Posted by The Helpful Stacker

A very young SAC MT driver at a certain North Hampshire helicopter unit was recently charged for turning up at a uniform check parade late, even though the lad in question turned up at the time proclaimed by the many posters around the section, of which he managed to get a copy. A word-of-mouth change to times had been made but unfortunately the chap was away at the time.

The hearing officer advised him before the charge was read not to bother fighting it as it would just make things worse, surly not the correct procedure for such things?

Well of course you are right HS, and every NCO and Officer in the Chain of Command above this young man's very lowly level has a duty, I repeat, has a duty to ensure that such summary proceedings are conducted correctly. If he develops a sense of gross injustice at the very start of his service he will carry a chip on his shoulder throughout his career. I rather suspect that this story is only too typical and accounts for much of the attitude abounding on Goat etc. So those concerned and aware of this incident should start the ball rolling. Summary justice, no matter how trivial, is subject to review by a superior officer. Go to that superior officer and express your concerns. Suggest that the evidence that would have "made things worse", should now be taken into account. It might then be possible to quash the Charge and have it removed from his record. If not it is always open to the airman himself to put in for a redress of grievance, that would be his decision. All too much bother, making mountains out of molehills? The trouble is that all the molehills are now heaped on each other into a gigantic mountain threatening to become the biggest landslide ever. My advice is for anyone concerned to get a shovel and start digging now!

[allan907]

Touched a raw nerve there? Good to see that your command of the English lanuage language is poor to gusting ?? little command. I presume that you are either a junior of senior rank, though to be honest if you are a senior, how on earht earthdid you make it this far? It's the lack of disipline discipline that you obviously embrace that only drives home the death nail of rot, errosion erosion of standards and ethos of the RAF, at all levels. OK, I take your not particulary particularly eliquent eloquent point of call, for implying that juniors are "thick" and I retract this as it was printed whilst feeling particularly frustrated with those juniors I unfortunately had to deal with during the day. However, it is particularly disappointing to deal with the more junior memers members of our force who constantly day in and day out, display a complete lack of care, awareness, logical thought and respect for service and the Queen. The act of saluting (for instance) is not as a mark of respect to me but to acknowledge the Queens Commsion Commission I have worked through the ranks to attain my commision commission, and at no point did I feel that I was belittling myself to pay the required respect. In fact as a junior and senior rank I used to go out of my way ensure that any officer I came into contact with, had to return my excemplary exemplary salute. Yes, I am old school but, I embrace modern practice and I am proud the RAF, and of the other services too, though daily I find that the services and those serving in it, particularly the RAF are loosing losing the plot.

Anybody who berates someone else on their incorrect use of the English language and turns in a piece of work like this deserves to be publicly flogged! And I haven't even bothered with punctuation and composition!

[glum]

In the last week, I've chatted to a dozen SAC techs, and at least 50% are waiting for replies from civilian companies having submitted their CV.

They see no future in the service, no let up to the time going East, and no improvement to their working conditions. The pension holding so many SNCO's in is too far off to be any pull at all, and when there are no perks that interest them, the pro's list is completely obliterated by the cons.

Time off for sport, global travel, expeditions, further training, respect, loyalty and all those other extra's we used to benefit from all seem to have melted away over the years and it is a sad fact that more than ever the RAF is viewed by the junior ranks as a job like any other, with less and less reason to put up with the bad postings cuz a good one was just round the corner.

Trouble is, what is the answer?

Cut more manpower as has just happened at several bases over the last few months?

Fight more wars with less people and older equiment?

Change the pension scheme so it only benefits those that die early or serve until 55?

Close 90% of the foreign bases and all but scrap accompanied tours?

Change the terminology and administration systems every couple of years so no-one really has a clue what's going on?

Introduce under-developed IT systems which are awkward and confusing to use so you can scrap the Admin staff, leaving expensively trained personal to waste hours trying to carry out tasks which had always been efficiently dealt with by proffessionals?

I won't go on...

[Pontius Navigator]

Originally Posted by The Helpful Stacker

In the civil sector 'Logistics' is a huge growth industry, with even the experience of a humble stacker in SCAF commanding quite reasonable wages as a Logistics Controller or Warehouse Supervisor. Backed up by a few resettlement courses such as NEBOSH and basic starting wages are starting to hit the 42k mark, small change for an airline pilot but a lot more than the 18k an average SAC supplier is making.

Indeed. An SAC supplier left the secret airbase where I worked and got a job with a national company based in our nearby county town. My daughter worked there too and put 2 and 2 together.

I knew the supplier by sight but not by name as he was only a casual worker in the WOC; the Logs desk was normally manned by Cpls.

I'm pleased to say that he did not b*tch about me. I try and treat people as capable and competent bearing in mind that every man jack and jill of them was a volunteer.

[paddyfactor]

Fast approaching my 12 yr exit date and easy jet street is looking like a good option RAF pension or nay. Find myself continually frustarted by poor operational set up ( has anyone been to Ops at the 'DeeD'), engineering overstretch 4 x Js and engineering staff closer to 12 than the previously suggested 16. Walk rounds have never been so important hatches open all over the place. Even on important casevacs patients are left ebbing away in the back of aircraft while vital documents are lost or even more frustrating no one pitches up to rush them to medi care. All this in our more evolved arena never mind the NW frontier soldiers grave yard. The apathy of every one around you frustrates even the most mundane of tasks.

Still according to the grand fromage McNicoll?? on a recent BBC cover he is "quite content" with the RAF transport fleet and its poor engineering and general support, VC 10s with daylight showing through the cracks and pilots jumping ship at the first opportunity. How nice Im pleased for him, no doubt he'll be knighted soon or off on a pointless senior officers exchange to Washington. Meanwhile even our Copilots are doing their liciences or trying to get instructional tours away from the sandy areas.

Still musnt grumble. How about a nice weekend at the RAF club? Apparently not, still full as it has been every time Ive asked the entirely unhelpfull staff for the past 5 years. Just as well as apparently i cant take my children there anyway! ( no under 5s allowed). I shall be cancelling my membership forthwith. As an aside our RAAF exchange pilot did manage to get in recently with his wife only for her to be refused entry at breakfast for wearing jeans! Thats how we host our allies is it?

Now where is that easy jet recruitment site.

[Pontius Navigator]

RAF Club

Originally Posted by paddyfactor

How about a nice weekend at the RAF club? Apparently not, still full as it has been every time Ive asked the entirely unhelpfull staff for the past 5 years. Just as well as apparently i cant take my children there anyway! ( no under 5s allowed). I shall be cancelling my membership forthwith. As an aside our RAAF exchange pilot did manage to get in recently with his wife only for her to be refused entry at breakfast for wearing jeans! Thats how we host our allies is it?

Agree that is frustrating but there is a way to play the game.

You can book up to 3 months in advance and cancel at 24 hrs notice.

Jeans is unfortunate.

I must admit to be cheesed off by the number of visitors who use the RAF Club as exchange members. Compared with the price of accommodation, if any, at the overseas clubs the RAF Club is a bargain.

We had an incident in August. Booked tea for 8 at 5pm. At 4.45 I confirmed the order to be told tea was off. NO IT ISN'T I said, we booked weeks ago and Mrs PN spoke with the manager.

Tea duly arrived, piles of sarnis, cakes, fresh baked scones and all for about £5.50 a head. At least the message had been received.

[Raymond Ginardon]

Quote: "Just as well as apparently i cant take my children there anyway! ( no under 5s allowed)."

Each to their own - for me that's a reason to keep my membership.

Ray

[Melchett01]

Still musnt grumble. How about a nice weekend at the RAF club? Apparently not, still full as it has been every time Ive asked the entirely unhelpfull staff for the past 5 years.

Not been able to get in for years - I think the last time was at some point before TELIC. Keep getting told to book nice and early to avoid being disappointed - keep telling them I don't know if I will be in the UK next week let alone be in town one weekend in 3 months time. Doesn't seem to bother them though as all the retired members and senior officers are happy. In fact, they're already taking bookings for the Olympics, so everything is just right with their booking system.

Yet another chip off the quality of life block for those at the coal face. Maybe I will cancel my membership now and re-open it when I retire.

[flipster]

paddy,

Try this

http://www.easyjet.com/EN/Jobs/Pilot/index.html

Good decision!

Flip

[BEagle]

"One station commander insisted that all visiting aircraft be met by an officer of equal rank and the CO himself for gp capt and above."

That had to have been the PCL himself at RAF Leeming in around 1974?
(PCL - Power Crazed Loonie. Always wore an orange flying suit. JMAP - later met his maker in a LearJet crash somewhere off the west coast of Scotland, I believe?)

For years Leeming had that stupid "Visiting aircraft are to advise if officers of the rank of Gp Capt or above are onboard" nonsense in the RMKS section of the BINA. We always advised (since it didn't specify LANDING visiting aircraft) that we had 'n' POB - and no Group Captains - when asked for POB by ATC on a PD.....

As for the RAF Club, it was very helpful indeed when I stayed for a couple of nights earlier this year. I was allowed to check in early and had a nice, cool room when it was blazing hot outside. Only complaint I would have is that the food service finishes stupidly early in the Running Horse.

And it's blissful without rug rats. Long may it continue to ban the little beggars!!

[vecvechookattack]

As an aside our RAAF exchange pilot did manage to get in recently with his wife only for her to be refused entry at breakfast for wearing jeans! Thats how we host our allies is it?

Someone should have warned her prior to her getting there. However, surely she must have realised that if you are not allowed to wear Jeans in the mess then jeans in the Club would also0 be a No/No

[insty66]

Hmmmmmmmm

There can't be much wrong with the RAF if the dress standards in the RAF Club are the most you have to moan about!

http://www.rafclub.org.uk/members.raf

[Pontius Navigator]

BEags, no, not Leeming. I seem to recall it was fairly common. It could have been ISK or Boots at Waddo.

[paddyfactor]

Originally Posted by insty66

There can't be much wrong with the RAF if the dress standards in the RAF Club are the most you have to moan about!

http://www.rafclub.org.uk/members.raf

Have to say that I find it slightly bizarre, but perhaps indicative of the type of people posting here, that this trivial aside is what people have decided to comment on. The poor lad who nearly died down the back of my aircraft was dressed in a trauma suit have any of you old club cronies seen one of those recently? You probably wouldnt approve it doesnt HAVE COLLARS! And as for Mr " there cant be much wrong with the RAF ", dress standards have never been something ive moaned about. Lack of ESF yes, poor ops support ( your own branch me thinks ) yes, streched engineering support yes, glib politico senior officers maybe, your fatuous ill thought out little posting quite probably. Are you the type of blunty who complains about flying suits in your bar? mmmmm I wonder.

[Flying_Scotsman]

RAF Club Dress

I was refused breakfast one Sunday for wearing a cravat which, apparently, didn't constitute a tie as required by the rules! That was in the days when officers wore cravats, of course.

[enginesuck]

Paddyfactor, I have to agree with yourr last post - how can a thread discussing serious issues affecting us all be hijacked by some tossers, discussing the dress code at the RAF club ?? I think it is actually indicitve of the problem of todays RAF

[insty66]

Did I use the wrong smiley?

Originally Posted by paddyfactor

Have to say that I find it slightly bizarre, but perhaps indicative of the type of people posting here, that this trivial aside is what people have decided to comment on. The poor lad who nearly died down the back of my aircraft was dressed in a trauma suit have any of you old club cronies seen one of those recently? You probably wouldnt approve it doesnt HAVE COLLARS! And as for Mr " there cant be much wrong with the RAF ", dress standards have never been something ive moaned about. Lack of ESF yes, poor ops support ( your own branch me thinks ) yes, streched engineering support yes, glib politico senior officers maybe, your fatuous ill thought out little posting quite probably. Are you the type of blunty who complains about flying suits in your bar? mmmmm I wonder.

I think you misundertood my post!
I agree with all you say about lack of support for [I]all[I].
Or were you agreeing with me, that the last of our concerns should be dress standards at the RAF Club?
In that case I misunderstood your post