RAF - the 'junior' service?
TAC Int Bloke
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RAF needs 124 personnel for each of its frontline aircraft, while the FAA does the same with 31 people. So, for the taxpayer, the RAF offers much less bang per buck.
So one Lynx has more 'bang per buck' as a GR4? Hmmmm, how can I put this? How exactly?
Go away nasty tank or I'll depth charge you to death?
So one Lynx has more 'bang per buck' as a GR4? Hmmmm, how can I put this? How exactly?
Go away nasty tank or I'll depth charge you to death?
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"RAF needs 124 personnel for each of its frontline aircraft, while the FAA does the same with 31 people. So, for the taxpayer, the RAF offers much less bang per buck."
So just refresh me on where that feckin great boat, the home for your 31 fished's fit's into your financial equation
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
So just refresh me on where that feckin great boat, the home for your 31 fished's fit's into your financial equation
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
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I agree, the GR4 has more 'bang per buck' than a Lynx - but not 4 times more. Go away nasty submarine, before I toss my munitions in your general direction! Oh, and would you be good enough to stay within spitting distance of the UK coast so I can get to you.
During the fireman's strike, some bright spark in the RAF puffed out his chest and told the big cheeses that however many thousand men had been provided with no loss of operational capability. So what do these people do normally. The point was that the RAF offer poor value for money compared to the other services, as the army/RN have been pared back to the bone, whilst the RAF is still decidedly fat.
During the fireman's strike, some bright spark in the RAF puffed out his chest and told the big cheeses that however many thousand men had been provided with no loss of operational capability. So what do these people do normally. The point was that the RAF offer poor value for money compared to the other services, as the army/RN have been pared back to the bone, whilst the RAF is still decidedly fat.
What ABIW meant was that the comparison of FAA manpower per aircraft with RAF manpower per aircraft was skewed. Many people in the RAF support the airfield services, admin and supply, tasks that the FAA piggyback on the rest of the RN for. Perhaps a better comparison would be the total complement of HMS Illustrious supporting however many ac it can carry with the total complement of RAF Marham with however many ac there are there. Don't know the numbers, perhaps someone can oblige.
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Go away nasty submarine, before I toss my limited munitions in your general direction before returning to mother! Oh, and would you be good enough to stay within spitting distance of mother so I can get to you.
MadMark!!!
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Mad Mark
Having worked with the Mr2, let me try and justify myself.
MR2 crew of 13 - Lynx 2 (3 if roled for airborne gunnery or SAR). Lynx wins.
MR2 roles, active/passive ASW(including weapons delivery), ASuW (but I've never seen them do it), search(but not rescue) - Lynx roles, ASuW, ASW, Gunner AOP, Harpoon targeting, Force protection, Search(and rescue), Loadlifting, troop insertion. So for versatility Lynx wins.
Lynx at alert 15, MR2 at alert? How far is Kinloss anyway? 10 hours on station is no use if there's no guarantee you won't have to leave when the action starts. Lynx marshals it's hours when all is quiet and is on scene as soon as needed. Lynx wins again.
I'm not saying the Nimrod isn't a great aircraft, but the issue is 'Bang per buck'. So where does the Nimrod win out exactly?
Having worked with the Mr2, let me try and justify myself.
MR2 crew of 13 - Lynx 2 (3 if roled for airborne gunnery or SAR). Lynx wins.
MR2 roles, active/passive ASW(including weapons delivery), ASuW (but I've never seen them do it), search(but not rescue) - Lynx roles, ASuW, ASW, Gunner AOP, Harpoon targeting, Force protection, Search(and rescue), Loadlifting, troop insertion. So for versatility Lynx wins.
Lynx at alert 15, MR2 at alert? How far is Kinloss anyway? 10 hours on station is no use if there's no guarantee you won't have to leave when the action starts. Lynx marshals it's hours when all is quiet and is on scene as soon as needed. Lynx wins again.
I'm not saying the Nimrod isn't a great aircraft, but the issue is 'Bang per buck'. So where does the Nimrod win out exactly?
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What is the point of the direction this thread has taken?
In terms of manpower, the Army is the Senior Service.
In terms of ultimate firepower, the RN is.
In terms of air power in many theatres and many different roles, the RAF is.
In terms of chronology, it is a done deal, and has been so for 88 years.
What gets me, is in 1982 the chips were down. As a 13 year old schoolboy, I vividly remember the "hasty conversions" of liners to troopships. The TV news item with the shipyard fitter talking to his wife, having been tasked to fit a helipad to (IIRC) the Canberra: "I'll be home when the job is done". The reclaiming of Vulcan bits from scrapyards. The Waterloo station announcement "All members of 1 PARA are instructed to return to barracks immediately".
In my own military career, I didn't question the provenance of the RAF when they brought me home from Sarajevo. Neither did I disprespect the RN bloke insisting I salute the bell at HMS Gannet in civvies.
Get over yourselves chaps, and fight the politicians that deprive you of the tools to do the job. A job well done by all, within the contraints imposed.
In terms of manpower, the Army is the Senior Service.
In terms of ultimate firepower, the RN is.
In terms of air power in many theatres and many different roles, the RAF is.
In terms of chronology, it is a done deal, and has been so for 88 years.
What gets me, is in 1982 the chips were down. As a 13 year old schoolboy, I vividly remember the "hasty conversions" of liners to troopships. The TV news item with the shipyard fitter talking to his wife, having been tasked to fit a helipad to (IIRC) the Canberra: "I'll be home when the job is done". The reclaiming of Vulcan bits from scrapyards. The Waterloo station announcement "All members of 1 PARA are instructed to return to barracks immediately".
In my own military career, I didn't question the provenance of the RAF when they brought me home from Sarajevo. Neither did I disprespect the RN bloke insisting I salute the bell at HMS Gannet in civvies.
Get over yourselves chaps, and fight the politicians that deprive you of the tools to do the job. A job well done by all, within the contraints imposed.
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Still, I suppose we can't expect much else from a Service formed on 1 April that is still only just getting the joke.....
Could have been worse, as the original 'Fags' line on this thread was on 29 Sep at 23:40
I wanted to join the Navy, but I passed the exam.
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The repeat until funny 'fag' line definitely demonstrates a whiff of lavender in the ranks of the RAF, but you can't escape a simple truth.
The first male to female sex change performed in the UK was done post WWII on an RAF fighter pilot. I would have thought there were less drastic ways to reduce the number of pricks in the organisation.
The first male to female sex change performed in the UK was done post WWII on an RAF fighter pilot. I would have thought there were less drastic ways to reduce the number of pricks in the organisation.
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Can't help but suspect you sport a bristling 'Village People' moustache yourself.
Trying to get back to the thread-ish, nobody has yet told me how the RAF can consider itself the senior service when it hasn't historically done as much to save our country from invasion as the RN and while econically it still remains a black hole where 50000 people are paid to keep just 426 aircraft on the front line.
Trying to get back to the thread-ish, nobody has yet told me how the RAF can consider itself the senior service when it hasn't historically done as much to save our country from invasion as the RN and while econically it still remains a black hole where 50000 people are paid to keep just 426 aircraft on the front line.
it still remains a black hole where 50000 people are paid to keep just 426 aircraft on the front line.
Which means about just over 500 personnel for every operational vessel as opposed to the 117 personnel per operational ac you mention in your statistics.
And you can't tell me the Navy is cost effective .... if we weren't buying those 2 carriers, we could have had at least 350 Typhoons
Can't help but suspect you sport a bristling 'Village People' moustache yourself
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So, with 14000 fewer people we operate 70 vessels and 200 combat aircraft and we can take a fight to a lot more places than you can. You may have noticed that UK foreign policy isn't winning us friends and influencing people. Friendly overseas airfields are getting thinner on the ground. If we binned the CVF's and ordered 350 Typhoons, how would they be used? Towing RAF Marham to the South China seas, for instance, could prove a logistical challenge. Presumably you'd want the 40000 extra personnel to fly these 350 jets too?
I know the RAF all walked past the RN recruiting office to get there, because the Air Force is the soft option, but it would be nice if a larger proportion of you got your hands dirty once in a while. I think if I were a GR7 or Chinook mate, I'd feel aggrieved at the time away considering the number of 'fat wheezy boys with a note from matron' who think one night away from the mrs is a deployment.
By the way, I do hope you twirl your moustaches in a Terry-Thomas stylee whilst pursuing said fillies.
I know the RAF all walked past the RN recruiting office to get there, because the Air Force is the soft option, but it would be nice if a larger proportion of you got your hands dirty once in a while. I think if I were a GR7 or Chinook mate, I'd feel aggrieved at the time away considering the number of 'fat wheezy boys with a note from matron' who think one night away from the mrs is a deployment.
By the way, I do hope you twirl your moustaches in a Terry-Thomas stylee whilst pursuing said fillies.
So, with 14000 fewer people we operate 70 vessels and 200 combat aircraft and we can take a fight to a lot more places than you can. You may have noticed that UK foreign policy isn't winning us friends and influencing people. Friendly overseas airfields are getting thinner on the ground. If we binned the CVF's and ordered 350 Typhoons, how would they be used? Towing RAF Marham to the South China seas, for instance, could prove a logistical challenge. Presumably you'd want the 40000 extra personnel to fly these 350 jets too?
I know the RAF all walked past the RN recruiting office to get there, because the Air Force is the soft option, but it would be nice if a larger proportion of you got your hands dirty once in a while. I think if I were a GR7 or Chinook mate, I'd feel aggrieved at the time away considering the number of 'fat wheezy boys with a note from matron' who think one night away from the mrs is a deployment.
By the way, I do hope you twirl your moustaches in a Terry-Thomas stylee whilst pursuing said fillies.
I know the RAF all walked past the RN recruiting office to get there, because the Air Force is the soft option, but it would be nice if a larger proportion of you got your hands dirty once in a while. I think if I were a GR7 or Chinook mate, I'd feel aggrieved at the time away considering the number of 'fat wheezy boys with a note from matron' who think one night away from the mrs is a deployment.
By the way, I do hope you twirl your moustaches in a Terry-Thomas stylee whilst pursuing said fillies.
