Blue on Blue in Afghanistan
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You would have at least shown a liking or even possibly an understanding of quality humour if you had quoted Bill Hicks or Doug Stanhope. Quoting Moron the cable guy can't be seen as anything less than a love for NASCAR worshipping pig squeeling rednecks. The day that idiot writes something funny or intelligent will be in his suicide note.
My experience with the US hobby of blue on blue? Only in excersise and on a firepower demo, think it was Salisbury Plain. We had given our pert of the demo 81mm HE, WP smoke etc (WP on delay make nice roman candle effects). Arty and SF guys had done some nice revving up of the targets also. Then a couple of harriers popped in with excercise munitions and zapped the red tanks quite nicely. But hang on here are the highlights of the show, the one thing we had all been looking forward to seeing. 2 x A10's (we were gutted they werent cleared to use their Avengers) droned in and dropped their markers.....on the 2 x blue tanks (already designated as friendly). Cue 42 commando falling on their arses laughing their heads off and a few red faced HQ elements etc. This happened in 92, only a year after those poor buggers in the Warrior found out that the enemy don't always vote Saddam.
Also whilst working with the USMC in Virginia Beach we were given an interesting and scary nugget of info by one the sgt's. Just over 400 service personel had been killed in range accidents the previous year within the US forces.
400? I'm sure that M-16's have safety catches don't they?. Down targets...patch out.
My experience with the US hobby of blue on blue? Only in excersise and on a firepower demo, think it was Salisbury Plain. We had given our pert of the demo 81mm HE, WP smoke etc (WP on delay make nice roman candle effects). Arty and SF guys had done some nice revving up of the targets also. Then a couple of harriers popped in with excercise munitions and zapped the red tanks quite nicely. But hang on here are the highlights of the show, the one thing we had all been looking forward to seeing. 2 x A10's (we were gutted they werent cleared to use their Avengers) droned in and dropped their markers.....on the 2 x blue tanks (already designated as friendly). Cue 42 commando falling on their arses laughing their heads off and a few red faced HQ elements etc. This happened in 92, only a year after those poor buggers in the Warrior found out that the enemy don't always vote Saddam.
Also whilst working with the USMC in Virginia Beach we were given an interesting and scary nugget of info by one the sgt's. Just over 400 service personel had been killed in range accidents the previous year within the US forces.
400? I'm sure that M-16's have safety catches don't they?. Down targets...patch out.
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If your numbers stated from the USMC Sgt are true (and I'm not questioning your memory), then that's sad and scary.
However, nowhere have I defended fratricide. Sucks and I think most trigger pullers (and I am not one, combat support, thank you!) really do try their utmost to not frag a friendly.
My point, which I think is the one to cause you to call "fight's on," had to do with naming names. It doesn't seem to occur when it's a Brit, so why is it kosher (wait for it...................................................get it?!) to name an American on pprune when there's a screw up?
And for the A-10 doing the wrong target, I'd have laughed too. Now, did they learn from that episode? I hope so.
However, nowhere have I defended fratricide. Sucks and I think most trigger pullers (and I am not one, combat support, thank you!) really do try their utmost to not frag a friendly.
My point, which I think is the one to cause you to call "fight's on," had to do with naming names. It doesn't seem to occur when it's a Brit, so why is it kosher (wait for it...................................................get it?!) to name an American on pprune when there's a screw up?
And for the A-10 doing the wrong target, I'd have laughed too. Now, did they learn from that episode? I hope so.
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Memory isnt that bad Brick cause myself and the 2 other guys who were in that conversation with the guy were pretty shocked and talked with him about that for most of the free time we had (were holed up awaiting our turn at paintball FIBUA at the time). Don't think the Sgt was trying to score points either, he was (like most of the USMC I met) a pretty spot on bloke.
I think it is very easy to slag off the A10 pilots here, and American "ROE" in general. Yes, they made a dreadful mistake, but I can guarantee you all that it is no picnic being sat above a Troops In Contact situation. You can bet that these pilots had guys on the radio screaming for weapons to be put on the ground ASAP before they lost any more men/took any more incoming fire. The pilots will have been caught between the old rock and hard place ie. wanting to get the bombs on the ground quickly to help out the friendlies, but at the same time trying to identify everyone down there.
Many of us who have been involved in these situations will have been asked to put weaponry down VERY close to the friendlies. I know of several recent occurences where FACs have asked for heavy weapons within 100 feet of their very positions. One can only surmise that this is what happened in the situation we are discussing in this thread, however I wasn't there so can only guess.
Before slagging off the Americans any further, we must remember that they operate under differing ROE to us brits. The A10 and F16 pilots I have worked with over the years have been professional and meticulous in their work; not "gung-ho" by any means.
"If there's any doubt - don't drop." It has been beaten into me and my colleagues for years. There are times when we've come home with bombs on even though the FACs have been requesting ordnance. The difficult part is knowing when NOT to drop.
Many of us who have been involved in these situations will have been asked to put weaponry down VERY close to the friendlies. I know of several recent occurences where FACs have asked for heavy weapons within 100 feet of their very positions. One can only surmise that this is what happened in the situation we are discussing in this thread, however I wasn't there so can only guess.
Before slagging off the Americans any further, we must remember that they operate under differing ROE to us brits. The A10 and F16 pilots I have worked with over the years have been professional and meticulous in their work; not "gung-ho" by any means.
"If there's any doubt - don't drop." It has been beaten into me and my colleagues for years. There are times when we've come home with bombs on even though the FACs have been requesting ordnance. The difficult part is knowing when NOT to drop.
Below the Glidepath - not correcting
Thread Starter
Not to be a complete pedant ORAC, but regarding ;
I would assume that the aircraft was operating under an ATO generated by the USAF, and that the Governor of Illinois was not responsible for the operational tasking of this asset while it was in Afghanistan. Even the letter of reprimand states...
I think it unlikely that the mourners and relatives of those slain or injured by this act would be inclined to differentiate between it being a culpable act by the State of Illinois versus the USAF. The shame and ignominy of the USAF are amplified even more so knowing that the individual was from the ANG, possibly a factor in Gen Carlson's response.
The last Afghan incident, against the Canadians, involved the (Illinois) ANG, not the USAF, and the pilot involved, Maj Harry Schmidt (Ex USN), whilst not discharged, was relieved of flying duties and informed he would never fly a military aircraft again. It was certainly not blamed on the fog of war...
Through your arrogance, you undermined one of the most sophisticated weapons systems in the world, consisting of the Combined Air Operations Center, the Airborne Warning and Control System, and highly disciplined pilots, all of whom must work together in an integrated fashion to achieve combat goals. The United States Air Force is a major contributor to military victories over our nation's enemies because our pilots possess superior flight discipline. However, your actions on the night of 17 April 2002 demonstrate an astonishing lack of flight discipline...
Skunk,
You just stepped on a land mine!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/3847051.stm
Get to googling and determine for yourself how many British fatalities have been Blue on Blue from accidental discharges, suicide, friendly fire, and other non-combat fire arms deathes. The number and percentage is going to astound you just as it did me.
I refrained from making any comment until now because I felt it would not be any good to do so....but since you hopped onto your soap box....and made like Speaker's Corner....I feel it is fair to do so.
Bluntly Sport, the British military is no better than any other military when it comes to popping off stray round that find the wrong mark.
Every casualty, no matter the cause or nationality, cannot be taken for granted and for the individual and families involved all are just as tragic as the next.
If you want to bash Spams at least get yer facts straight before you open your festering gob.
Some how you just do not understand American Humour anymore than some Americans fail to see the funny side of good British Humour.
When Larry the Cable Guy can stand up an mock Rednecks and get them to laugh at themselves....then that is some pretty good humour. Billy Connolly can get Glaswegians to do the same....do you think he is droll as well?
You just stepped on a land mine!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/3847051.stm
Get to googling and determine for yourself how many British fatalities have been Blue on Blue from accidental discharges, suicide, friendly fire, and other non-combat fire arms deathes. The number and percentage is going to astound you just as it did me.
I refrained from making any comment until now because I felt it would not be any good to do so....but since you hopped onto your soap box....and made like Speaker's Corner....I feel it is fair to do so.
Bluntly Sport, the British military is no better than any other military when it comes to popping off stray round that find the wrong mark.
Every casualty, no matter the cause or nationality, cannot be taken for granted and for the individual and families involved all are just as tragic as the next.
If you want to bash Spams at least get yer facts straight before you open your festering gob.
Some how you just do not understand American Humour anymore than some Americans fail to see the funny side of good British Humour.
When Larry the Cable Guy can stand up an mock Rednecks and get them to laugh at themselves....then that is some pretty good humour. Billy Connolly can get Glaswegians to do the same....do you think he is droll as well?
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Senseless,
I have seen you post some real tosh in the past but f@ck me readers now you expect us to believe that Suicide equates to blue on blue
just when you thought you had heard it all........................
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
I have seen you post some real tosh in the past but f@ck me readers now you expect us to believe that Suicide equates to blue on blue
just when you thought you had heard it all........................
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
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Senseless,
I have seen you post some real tosh in the past but f@ck me readers now you expect us to believe that Suicide equates to blue on blue
just when you thought you had heard it all........................
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
I have seen you post some real tosh in the past but f@ck me readers now you expect us to believe that Suicide equates to blue on blue
just when you thought you had heard it all........................
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
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From the reports so far, this sounds like a dreadful accident and one of those "sh1t happens" kind of incident that occurs in wars. The guys needed help, called for it and the air delivered it as best they could. Unfortunate, even excusable perhaps. He was doing his best.
The incident involving the Canadians, the pilot was told NOT to attack, was NOT in any danger, took it on himself to go down into the "danger area" and let them have it. Culpably negligent. I undestand he appealed the decision and was given the same decision/response. He was a liability.
The incident involving the Canadians, the pilot was told NOT to attack, was NOT in any danger, took it on himself to go down into the "danger area" and let them have it. Culpably negligent. I undestand he appealed the decision and was given the same decision/response. He was a liability.
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This post seems to have lost its way a little.
All the pilots providing CAS have a very difficult task. The ACM get in close and that means if CAS is to be used, then it too has to be close.
I feel for the families of those lost in battle, and may those brave souls rest in peace. I also feel for the pilots of the aircraft; who will have to carry this terrible incident with them where ever they go.
All the pilots providing CAS have a very difficult task. The ACM get in close and that means if CAS is to be used, then it too has to be close.
I feel for the families of those lost in battle, and may those brave souls rest in peace. I also feel for the pilots of the aircraft; who will have to carry this terrible incident with them where ever they go.
Last edited by AHQHI656SQN; 6th Sep 2006 at 10:59. Reason: spelling corrected thank you QFIHawkman
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This post seems to have lost its way a little.
All the pilots providing CAS have a very difficult task. The ACM get in close and that means if CAS is to be used, then it too has to be close.
I feel for the families of those lost in battle, and may those brave soles rest in peace. I also feel for the pilots of the aircraft; who will have to carry this terrible incident with them where ever they go.
All the pilots providing CAS have a very difficult task. The ACM get in close and that means if CAS is to be used, then it too has to be close.
I feel for the families of those lost in battle, and may those brave soles rest in peace. I also feel for the pilots of the aircraft; who will have to carry this terrible incident with them where ever they go.
I echo your sentiment however, and my thoughts have always been with those lost on the ground. I stand by my first post though, the gist of which was "If you aren't sure, don't press the button".
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Skunk,
You just stepped on a land mine!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/3847051.stm
Get to googling and determine for yourself how many British fatalities have been Blue on Blue from accidental discharges, suicide, friendly fire, and other non-combat fire arms deathes. The number and percentage is going to astound you just as it did me.
I refrained from making any comment until now because I felt it would not be any good to do so....but since you hopped onto your soap box....and made like Speaker's Corner....I feel it is fair to do so.
Bluntly Sport, the British military is no better than any other military when it comes to popping off stray round that find the wrong mark.
Every casualty, no matter the cause or nationality, cannot be taken for granted and for the individual and families involved all are just as tragic as the next.
If you want to bash Spams at least get yer facts straight before you open your festering gob.
Some how you just do not understand American Humour anymore than some Americans fail to see the funny side of good British Humour.
When Larry the Cable Guy can stand up an mock Rednecks and get them to laugh at themselves....then that is some pretty good humour. Billy Connolly can get Glaswegians to do the same....do you think he is droll as well?
You just stepped on a land mine!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/3847051.stm
Get to googling and determine for yourself how many British fatalities have been Blue on Blue from accidental discharges, suicide, friendly fire, and other non-combat fire arms deathes. The number and percentage is going to astound you just as it did me.
I refrained from making any comment until now because I felt it would not be any good to do so....but since you hopped onto your soap box....and made like Speaker's Corner....I feel it is fair to do so.
Bluntly Sport, the British military is no better than any other military when it comes to popping off stray round that find the wrong mark.
Every casualty, no matter the cause or nationality, cannot be taken for granted and for the individual and families involved all are just as tragic as the next.
If you want to bash Spams at least get yer facts straight before you open your festering gob.
Some how you just do not understand American Humour anymore than some Americans fail to see the funny side of good British Humour.
When Larry the Cable Guy can stand up an mock Rednecks and get them to laugh at themselves....then that is some pretty good humour. Billy Connolly can get Glaswegians to do the same....do you think he is droll as well?
Just to let you know, I didnt make anything up, those were the words straight from that guys mouth. Not my supposed "festering one" which is quite a nice mouth actually, all minty fresh etc.
I havent trodden on a landmine as the accidents that happen withing the US military were used on regular occasions in our briefings and training to point out lessons. The amount of people you were loosing in the 90's to accidents /blue on blue etc was quite appalling. We were never warned about Suicides though so I guess thats where Deep Cut went wrong. Didnt realise that a suicide was now a blue on blue, crikey theres a lot of blue on blues going on in Scandinavia isnt there.
Also having worked with the USMC and have them gobsmacked when they have witnessed our live company attacks in Puerto Rico I can tell you that that one of your main problems is your lack of serious training. I don't know if it has changed but your chaps werent allowed to do Live Firing attacks with any more than a section (8 men) because of safety. They were shocked when they helped marshal our Company attacks 90+ including 81mm mortar / 51 mm Mortar, and GPMG SF also at night.
If your not used to firing live ordnance in the immediate vicinity of your oppos then accidents will happen.
Mind you we used the adage of "Train hard, fight easy". Works well, perhaps that is another thing you could learn from us.
And no matter how much you try to convince people, Larry The Toilet is not funny, he's not even witty or even zany. He is about as talanted as Steve Wright on Radio2. When you have the opportunity to quote Richard Prior, Bill Hicks, Stanhope etc quoteing "Git r Done" is really scraping the bottom. Mind you, the septics loved Benny Hill so there is no accounting for taste, and irony is like algebra for you guys.
Billy Connolly on the other hand used to be very funny and now and then manages to be ok but has seriously lost his way.
Try Peter Cook, Bob Monkhouse (blue stuff), Hancock, Cooper, Morecombe, Merton, Russel Brand etc, listen to those guys and you might not wake up in such a crabby mood as you seem to do, so often.
Last edited by Skunkerama; 6th Sep 2006 at 10:57.
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Mind you we used the adage of "Train hard, fight easy". Works well, perhaps that is another thing you could learn from us.
And no matter how much you try to convince people, Larry The Toilet is not funny, he's not even witty or even zany.
Mind you, the septics loved Benny Hill so there is no accounting for taste, and irony is like algebra for you guys.
And no matter how much you try to convince people, Larry The Toilet is not funny, he's not even witty or even zany.
Mind you, the septics loved Benny Hill so there is no accounting for taste, and irony is like algebra for you guys.
THANK YOU for your sage advice on how the US should train. Now WHY didn't we think of that? That there RED FLAG you run is just the cat's a**! Same for some of those other large force exercises you run (you DO have large forces, don't you? Oh, sorry..........didn't mean to embarass.)
For some reason I just can't fathom (but then I am American, therefore 'blond' in your opinion, me thinks), you choose to focus on a small quote from Larry the Cable Guy and blow it out of proportion. I could care less if you think he or anyone else is funny. My intent in choosing THAT particular qoute of his was to illustrate my point about the US Marines, in particular, being highly motivated to support their own when the ground guys call for help. "Git 'r done" just means do the job and don't whine about it. A lot of his material is moronic, but some of it IS funny. Different strokes and all that.
And say, THAT point comes back to the "what do you think is the difference between US and UK philosophies on shoot or don't shoot" in CAS situations. You seem to have lost focus, but then, does it matter?
Re your oh so original jibe (look it up!) regarding algebra and the like for Americans, fair point. Can we trade you some of our dentists and orthodontists for some of your math instructors?
I'm done with you on this.
Regarding the point of the thread. It is a damn shame that friendlies got schwacked by A-10s. Wish to God it hadn't happened or won't happen again.
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I think the main problem in Canada in respect of this and the Coffee Flight bombing is the contrast between the reaction of American forces (for instance, the adding of the four Patricias killed by Coffee Flight to the Fort Campbell Memorial of the 187th Inf in Kentucky) and their political leaders - I think a lot of Canadians felt the White House should have been more contrite about the incident.
Issuing a statement via the Ambassador might do elsewhere but when you're relying on Canadian co-operation to maintain border security, NORAD and extradition arrangements and considering the thousands of citizens who live in each other's territories and the number of Canadians serving in US Forces, a more fulsome apology would have been welcome.
However, since the WH doesn't want to acknowledge US casualties I suppose it's too much to expect them to acknowledge Canadian ones.
Issuing a statement via the Ambassador might do elsewhere but when you're relying on Canadian co-operation to maintain border security, NORAD and extradition arrangements and considering the thousands of citizens who live in each other's territories and the number of Canadians serving in US Forces, a more fulsome apology would have been welcome.
However, since the WH doesn't want to acknowledge US casualties I suppose it's too much to expect them to acknowledge Canadian ones.
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Sorry Brick, I did make one major oversight in my post. Why bother with live firing exercises when you can just invade a little country for oil and train your soldiers in a cosy little war against last generation US equipment?
Nice jibe regarding the size of our forces but hey....quality not quantity.
Also making a joke regarding British Teeth in the same sentance where your going on about old and out of date jokes? Guess what....thats ironic. Your nearly there. Pat on the back time.
Oh and the CAS question? If your not 110% sure that your sights are on the enemy, then don't pull the trigger. 6 P's also help. Things get hairy after the first shots are fired, but thats when you rely on your excellent training and planning to get you through. I'm sure you know that already though.
Nice jibe regarding the size of our forces but hey....quality not quantity.
Also making a joke regarding British Teeth in the same sentance where your going on about old and out of date jokes? Guess what....thats ironic. Your nearly there. Pat on the back time.
Oh and the CAS question? If your not 110% sure that your sights are on the enemy, then don't pull the trigger. 6 P's also help. Things get hairy after the first shots are fired, but thats when you rely on your excellent training and planning to get you through. I'm sure you know that already though.
In the words of Abraham Lincoln when asked "if a dog's tail was a called a leg, how many legs would a dog have?"
His response was "Simply calling the tail a leg does not make it so."
His response was "Simply calling the tail a leg does not make it so."
Last edited by SASless; 6th Sep 2006 at 21:14.