Blue on Blue in Afghanistan
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Blue on Blue in Afghanistan
NATO warplanes kill Canadian soldiers
September 5, 2006 - 12:49AM
http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/...222077828.html
NATO warplanes strafed their own forces yesterday during a battle with insurgents, killing one Canadian soldier and seriously wounding five others during an anti-Taliban operation that has reportedly killed 200 militants in southern Afghanistan.
A British soldier attached to NATO was also killed in a Kabul suicide bombing, which left another four Afghans dead today, NATO and Afghan officials said.
Sixteen suspected Taliban militants and five Afghan police died in separate Afghan violence.
The intense fighting comes amid Afghanistan's deadliest spate of violence since US-led forces toppled the hard-line Taliban regime for hosting al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden after the September 11, 2001 attacks.
NATO said the friendly fire incident occurred during a major NATO-led anti-Taliban operation in Kandahar province's Panjwayi district after ground troops requested air support.
Two NATO aircraft "regrettably engaged friendly forces during a strafing run, using cannons," the statement said.
One Canadian soldier was killed, said NATO spokesman Major Scott Lundy, while five were seriously wounded and evacuated out of Afghanistan to an undisclosed location for medical treatment. An investigation into the incident has been launched.
"It is particularly distressing to us all when, despite the care and precautions that are always applied, a tragedy like this happens," said NATO commander Lieutenant General David Richards.
On Sunday, four Canadian soldiers were killed and seven wounded during Operation Medusa, which is aiming to drive a large group of Taliban militants from Panjwayi, which lies about 25 kilometres west of the main southern city of Kandahar.
Some 32 Canadian soldiers and one diplomat have been killed in Afghanistan since 2002.
In Kabul, a suicide car bomber in a four-wheel drive exploded alongside a British convoy, killing one soldier and seriously wounding another, the British Ministry of Defence said.
Another four Afghan civilians were killed, while at least two other NATO soldiers and seven Afghans were wounded in the blast on the Kabul-Jalalabad road, NATO and Afghan officials said.
The bomber driving the four-wheel drive also died, Afghan police said.
Thirty-seven British personnel have been killed in Afghanistan since operations began in 2001 - 28 of them in the past four months.
NATO reported that more than 200 Taliban fighters had died in the first two days of Operation Medusa, that began on Saturday.
The Afghan Defence Ministry, however, only reported 89 militants were killed. Some 80 other suspected Taliban were arrested by Afghan police and a further 180 fled, NATO said.
The casualty counts - which if confirmed represent one of the deadliest combat actions since US-led forces ousted the Taliban regime five years ago - could not be independently verified.
Authorities have barred citizens from travelling on all but the main road running through this part of Kandahar province, and reporters could not reach the battlefield.
A NATO statement said its figure was derived from "surveillance and reconnaissance assets operating in Panjwayi and Zhari districts" and information from Afghan officials and citizens.
On Sunday, an Associated Press reporter who travelled to the district's Pashmul area saw warplanes drop five bombs within about 20 minutes on orchards where Taliban fighters were believed to be hiding. Booming explosions echoed above the grape and pomegranate fields and kicked up clouds of dust.
NATO said there were no reports of civilian casualties, despite the heavy fire. Afghan Defence Ministry spokesman General Zahir Azimi, however, said there were a number of civilian casualties.
NATO spokesman Major Scott Lundy said the NATO and Afghan forces had gained ground and had disrupted the militants' command and control, causing confusion among the fighters.
The weekend's fatalities increased the total of foreign troops killed in Afghanistan so far this year beyond the 130 who died during all of 2005 - an indication of the escalation in violence sparked by an upsurge in Taliban attacks.
AP
September 5, 2006 - 12:49AM
http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/...222077828.html
NATO warplanes strafed their own forces yesterday during a battle with insurgents, killing one Canadian soldier and seriously wounding five others during an anti-Taliban operation that has reportedly killed 200 militants in southern Afghanistan.
A British soldier attached to NATO was also killed in a Kabul suicide bombing, which left another four Afghans dead today, NATO and Afghan officials said.
Sixteen suspected Taliban militants and five Afghan police died in separate Afghan violence.
The intense fighting comes amid Afghanistan's deadliest spate of violence since US-led forces toppled the hard-line Taliban regime for hosting al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden after the September 11, 2001 attacks.
NATO said the friendly fire incident occurred during a major NATO-led anti-Taliban operation in Kandahar province's Panjwayi district after ground troops requested air support.
Two NATO aircraft "regrettably engaged friendly forces during a strafing run, using cannons," the statement said.
One Canadian soldier was killed, said NATO spokesman Major Scott Lundy, while five were seriously wounded and evacuated out of Afghanistan to an undisclosed location for medical treatment. An investigation into the incident has been launched.
"It is particularly distressing to us all when, despite the care and precautions that are always applied, a tragedy like this happens," said NATO commander Lieutenant General David Richards.
On Sunday, four Canadian soldiers were killed and seven wounded during Operation Medusa, which is aiming to drive a large group of Taliban militants from Panjwayi, which lies about 25 kilometres west of the main southern city of Kandahar.
Some 32 Canadian soldiers and one diplomat have been killed in Afghanistan since 2002.
In Kabul, a suicide car bomber in a four-wheel drive exploded alongside a British convoy, killing one soldier and seriously wounding another, the British Ministry of Defence said.
Another four Afghan civilians were killed, while at least two other NATO soldiers and seven Afghans were wounded in the blast on the Kabul-Jalalabad road, NATO and Afghan officials said.
The bomber driving the four-wheel drive also died, Afghan police said.
Thirty-seven British personnel have been killed in Afghanistan since operations began in 2001 - 28 of them in the past four months.
NATO reported that more than 200 Taliban fighters had died in the first two days of Operation Medusa, that began on Saturday.
The Afghan Defence Ministry, however, only reported 89 militants were killed. Some 80 other suspected Taliban were arrested by Afghan police and a further 180 fled, NATO said.
The casualty counts - which if confirmed represent one of the deadliest combat actions since US-led forces ousted the Taliban regime five years ago - could not be independently verified.
Authorities have barred citizens from travelling on all but the main road running through this part of Kandahar province, and reporters could not reach the battlefield.
A NATO statement said its figure was derived from "surveillance and reconnaissance assets operating in Panjwayi and Zhari districts" and information from Afghan officials and citizens.
On Sunday, an Associated Press reporter who travelled to the district's Pashmul area saw warplanes drop five bombs within about 20 minutes on orchards where Taliban fighters were believed to be hiding. Booming explosions echoed above the grape and pomegranate fields and kicked up clouds of dust.
NATO said there were no reports of civilian casualties, despite the heavy fire. Afghan Defence Ministry spokesman General Zahir Azimi, however, said there were a number of civilian casualties.
NATO spokesman Major Scott Lundy said the NATO and Afghan forces had gained ground and had disrupted the militants' command and control, causing confusion among the fighters.
The weekend's fatalities increased the total of foreign troops killed in Afghanistan so far this year beyond the 130 who died during all of 2005 - an indication of the escalation in violence sparked by an upsurge in Taliban attacks.
AP
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Is it not time to to give them the key's back, pack up and come home? Do we never learn from history? Tell me why not. They kicked us out 75 years ago, the Russians only in the eighties and eventually that Muppet Blair will also buckle. Leave them with it.
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American CAS
From the CBC webpage:
"Two U.S. fighter jets mistakenly fired on a Canadian platoon taking part in a massive anti-Taliban operation west of Kandahar on Monday, killing one soldier and injuring dozens of others. more »
September 4, 2006 | 12:20 PM EDT
Related: 4 Canadians killed, 9 injured in Afghan battle"
I recall back in 2002 a Yankee jet dropped a bomb on the Princess Patricia's boys near Kabul, killing 4 and seriously injuring 8.
Now I know that Fratricide incidents are quite rare, but Uncle Sam's boys are getting quite the rep for assisting in the Tali's efforts!
My thoughts go out to the families of the Soldiers involved.
"Two U.S. fighter jets mistakenly fired on a Canadian platoon taking part in a massive anti-Taliban operation west of Kandahar on Monday, killing one soldier and injuring dozens of others. more »
September 4, 2006 | 12:20 PM EDT
Related: 4 Canadians killed, 9 injured in Afghan battle"
I recall back in 2002 a Yankee jet dropped a bomb on the Princess Patricia's boys near Kabul, killing 4 and seriously injuring 8.
Now I know that Fratricide incidents are quite rare, but Uncle Sam's boys are getting quite the rep for assisting in the Tali's efforts!
My thoughts go out to the families of the Soldiers involved.
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I spoke with a USMC pilot two years ago, and when this subject came up, he told me it was because "We (the US) fire first and ask questions later."
He intimated that this was a good thing I might add.
I've lost count of the video clips I've seen over the last couple of years where some vehicle / bridge / building etc gets splashed, accompanied by a soundtrack of shouted "F*ck yeahs", "God damns" and general whooping and screaming.
Thinking back to my sorties in Iraq 1, I won't say I was calm about the whole thing (far from it) but none of those "gung ho" shouts for one minute entered my head.
It just makes me wonder about the difference in mentality between the US and the UK when it comes to taking another life.
Like BN boy, my thoughts are with the Canadian soldiers' families.
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Hawkman, Well said.
I wouldn't be at all surprised if in the ensuing investigation the pilot in question turns out to be ANG. 'Yes I'm a banker by trade...did I also mention that I fly Warthogs on Sundays? Yeah, I was just growing so tired of my local golf course. So, I got this new shotgun, wanna go shoot some 'possums in the backyard?...YEE HA!'
I wouldn't be at all surprised if in the ensuing investigation the pilot in question turns out to be ANG. 'Yes I'm a banker by trade...did I also mention that I fly Warthogs on Sundays? Yeah, I was just growing so tired of my local golf course. So, I got this new shotgun, wanna go shoot some 'possums in the backyard?...YEE HA!'
It just makes me wonder about the difference in mentality between the US and the UK when it comes to taking another life.
Perhaps we see destruction of the enemy as being the mission and when successful we take pride in our work.
BN Boy...any Territorials in Iraq or Afghanistan? Would you say the same about them?
Perhaps we should wait till the investigation is done and see what it reports about the causes before we pass judgement. Effective communication between same nation forces is difficult enough....throw in different national forces and there is one more factor that can adversely affect "effective" communication.
Just through sheer numbers of aircraft committed the US forces should be the leading perpetrator of these events just out of pure statistical odds.
The earlier incident should have ended with some pilots going to jail....the wingman called it correctly when he suggested the Lead might have called it wrong immediately after it happened....while still airborne leaving the target.
When the two Blackhawks got shot down.....I would have loved to see that Colonel swinging from a very large Oak Tree.
I have been around a bit of two way rifle range fun and games and know that despite the very best of efforts some rounds will inevitably go astray for any number of reasons.
Read "Roberts Ridge" by MacPherson for an account of how confusing fast close quarters combat can be. Perhaps the flow of information or the lack of it is the root cause behind the latest incident.
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Perhaps we should wait till the investigation is done and see what it reports about the causes before we pass judgement. Effective communication between same nation forces is difficult enough....throw in different national forces and there is one more factor that can adversely affect "effective" communication.
Just through sheer numbers of aircraft committed the US forces should be the leading perpetrator of these events just out of pure statistical odds.
Just through sheer numbers of aircraft committed the US forces should be the leading perpetrator of these events just out of pure statistical odds.
Communication is always difficult between so many fighting arms of so many different countries, and of course by sheer weight of numbers the US guys are going to be in the top percent of "blue on blues" anyway.
You are also right that on the "two way range" (as you so nicely put it!) rounds can go astray.
Rounds did not however go astray in this particular blue on blue. It was a strafing run directed on the Canadians.
I stand by my original point however. Our US cousins do tend to be a little gung ho in the face of battle.
My answer to your above points is this: If you ain't sure, don't press the button.
An advisory note often lost on our American colleagues at times I feel.
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SASless,
Let us also remember that this is a 'Rumour' page and as such is the perfect place to add conjecture and speculate.
And yes, I am very aware that there are TA in Afgan and Iraq...I've served with them in both theatres. And no, I would not say the same about them; as Hawkman has just written, there appears to be a difference in the way British and American forces execute they're combat mission, both the reg force types and reservists.
That said, I'm not trying to turn this into an American slagging match. Despite this recent accidents, I've also been witness to some very good and very timely American CAS.
You mentioned the 'fog of war' (in many more words): I agree that it has a massive effect on PDM in the battle space, but if a 'blue on blue' does occur questions, rumour driven or factually based, need to be asked.
By the way, thanks for the book title. I will indeed pick it up.
Let us also remember that this is a 'Rumour' page and as such is the perfect place to add conjecture and speculate.
And yes, I am very aware that there are TA in Afgan and Iraq...I've served with them in both theatres. And no, I would not say the same about them; as Hawkman has just written, there appears to be a difference in the way British and American forces execute they're combat mission, both the reg force types and reservists.
That said, I'm not trying to turn this into an American slagging match. Despite this recent accidents, I've also been witness to some very good and very timely American CAS.
You mentioned the 'fog of war' (in many more words): I agree that it has a massive effect on PDM in the battle space, but if a 'blue on blue' does occur questions, rumour driven or factually based, need to be asked.
By the way, thanks for the book title. I will indeed pick it up.
But what happens when everything convinces the pilot that all is as it should be...and he exercises proper judgement....hits the given target....and later finds out he had been given bum poop? Is the pilot at fault?
The problem is when you are quite sure....but in effect quite wrong but for all the right reasons that this gets awkward.
The problem is when you are quite sure....but in effect quite wrong but for all the right reasons that this gets awkward.
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If only to annoy SASLess...
All airmen should know of the American John Boyd's 'OODA Loop' that was originally used for air-to-air combat but is now used for combat as a whole. It was originally meant to stand for Observe, Orientate, Decide, Act - if you could do this quicker than your opponent then you 'should' win.
Well it would appear that out American cousins have now decided to take this one step further and altered the tried and tested formula to:
All airmen should know of the American John Boyd's 'OODA Loop' that was originally used for air-to-air combat but is now used for combat as a whole. It was originally meant to stand for Observe, Orientate, Decide, Act - if you could do this quicker than your opponent then you 'should' win.
Well it would appear that out American cousins have now decided to take this one step further and altered the tried and tested formula to:
Observe
Over-react
Destroy
Apologise
OK I admit, I stole this joke from someone else (a USAF B1 pilot).
Over-react
Destroy
Apologise
Last edited by Climebear; 4th Sep 2006 at 19:56.
"Our US cousins do tend to be a little gung ho in the face of battle."
I was first told of this in about 1958 by WW2 survivors. 'Trigger happy Yanks', they called them back then.
Just read Peter de la Billiere's thoughts about the USMreenKaw's gung ho-ism in GW1 in 'Storm Command'.....
Condolences to the families of those killed and injured. Thoughts also to the aircrew involved, who must surely be feeling pretty gutted.
I was first told of this in about 1958 by WW2 survivors. 'Trigger happy Yanks', they called them back then.
Just read Peter de la Billiere's thoughts about the USMreenKaw's gung ho-ism in GW1 in 'Storm Command'.....
Condolences to the families of those killed and injured. Thoughts also to the aircrew involved, who must surely be feeling pretty gutted.
Last edited by BEagle; 4th Sep 2006 at 19:59.
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Without wanting to excuse a Blue-On-Blue:
If one country supplies the lion's share of all aircraft types, in every war in living memory, with other countries supplying pitiful contributions of niche capabilities, then the God of statistics comes out to play.
Simple averages very quickly tell you who will be the unlucky bugger who has every intention of helping out the lads on the ground, but sadly doesn't.
Truth is, the FAC obviously wanted cannon fire, and no-one else was there to give it. Incredibly sad news for the deceased, family and friends...and not exactly pleasant for the Hog driver.
If one country supplies the lion's share of all aircraft types, in every war in living memory, with other countries supplying pitiful contributions of niche capabilities, then the God of statistics comes out to play.
Simple averages very quickly tell you who will be the unlucky bugger who has every intention of helping out the lads on the ground, but sadly doesn't.
Truth is, the FAC obviously wanted cannon fire, and no-one else was there to give it. Incredibly sad news for the deceased, family and friends...and not exactly pleasant for the Hog driver.
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"Our US cousins do tend to be a little gung ho in the face of battle."
I was first told of this in about 1958 by WW2 survivors. 'Trigger happy Yanks', they called them back then.
Just read Peter de la Billiere's thoughts about the USMreenKaw's gung ho-ism in GW1 in 'Storm Command'.....
I was first told of this in about 1958 by WW2 survivors. 'Trigger happy Yanks', they called them back then.
Just read Peter de la Billiere's thoughts about the USMreenKaw's gung ho-ism in GW1 in 'Storm Command'.....
"Trigger happy Yanks;" how could they tell what with the RAF/RN flying American hardware?
Re Gen de la Billiere's thoughts; no comment. The man's good so I have to respect that. Difference in cultures, perhaps? Doesn't make us wrong, just different.
Re BN boy and his ANG insults: since you don't have any info regarding your background posted, how did you come by this opinion? Hmmm, a guy has a job - even if a banker - AND has to keep his many flying currencies. Sounds sporty to get it all done and keep the family fed. Oh, not to mention the deployments when the civvie career (which is the primary source of income!) has to go on hold. Tell you what, feel free to put the mic down next time you want CAS!
I'm not qualified to judge what happens in a CAS cockpit, BN, are you? QFIhawkman man is, I'll at least listen to his comments. Yours rank right up there with the worst that were posted in the Nimrod threads. Which, as of my last check, not ONE American had been a d!ck like BN Boy on this thread regarding the ANG and "helping the Tali" out.
Tell you what, get a numerically significant Air Force and then let's compare percentages.
(Not meant to be insulting to the present RAF aircrews. From reports, the RAF GR guys are doing outstanding work; good on 'em! Just wish there were more of them!)
"Trigger happy Yanks;" how could they tell what with the RAF/RN flying American hardware?
Perhaps I should have added that the comment came from an ex-Spitfire pilot and an ex-RN Albacore/Swordfish/Defiant (so he said) pilot....about B-17s.
I don't think many RAF/RN crews flew those?
Perhaps I should have added that the comment came from an ex-Spitfire pilot and an ex-RN Albacore/Swordfish/Defiant (so he said) pilot....about B-17s.
I don't think many RAF/RN crews flew those?
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"Trigger happy Yanks;" how could they tell what with the RAF/RN flying American hardware?
Perhaps I should have added that the comment came from an ex-Spitfire pilot and an ex-RN Albacore/Swordfish/Defiant (so he said) pilot....about B-17s.
I don't think many RAF/RN crews flew those?
Perhaps I should have added that the comment came from an ex-Spitfire pilot and an ex-RN Albacore/Swordfish/Defiant (so he said) pilot....about B-17s.
I don't think many RAF/RN crews flew those?
Edited to add: from what I understand, the bomber gunners WERE trigger happy. Took out a lot of USAAF fighters too. Not sure I'd blame them however...........
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I did point out that numerically speaking, US forces are always going to bear the brunt of the "blue on blue" figures. I sympathise with that.
I just wondered why the US forces tend to always "shoot first ask later" (As quoted by an USMC pilot 2 years back.)
I can't remember a RAF pilot once being blamed for a blue on blue incident in my time in (20 years).
My serious question to you is.... Is it anything to do with differing cultures within the 2 countries? Does it have anything to do with the gun culture do you think? I just wonder why I hear so many cockpit conversations along the lines of "Ooh raah, splash that motherf*cker" or "f*ck yeah!"
You won't hear that from a RAF Harrier pilot.
And by the way, I was never CAS unfortunately, I was a strike pilot in those days.
Bomb away!
Not so. The Fortress 1 bombers were a bit of a disaster and were out of service in Europe by the time the US decided to join WW2. 4 later went to the Middle East, the rest to Benbecula.
The RAF also used the Fortress II with Coastal Command - and a couple of squadrons of Fortress IIIs on ECM duties.
The RAF also used the Fortress II with Coastal Command - and a couple of squadrons of Fortress IIIs on ECM duties.
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I just wondered why the US forces tend to always "shoot first ask later" (As quoted by an USMC pilot 2 years back.)
I can't remember a RAF pilot once being blamed for a blue on blue incident in my time in (20 years).
My serious question to you is.... Is it anything to do with differing cultures within the 2 countries? Does it have anything to do with the gun culture do you think? I just wonder why I hear so many cockpit conversations along the lines of "Ooh raah, splash that motherf*cker" or "f*ck yeah!"
You won't hear that from a RAF Harrier pilot.
I can't remember a RAF pilot once being blamed for a blue on blue incident in my time in (20 years).
My serious question to you is.... Is it anything to do with differing cultures within the 2 countries? Does it have anything to do with the gun culture do you think? I just wonder why I hear so many cockpit conversations along the lines of "Ooh raah, splash that motherf*cker" or "f*ck yeah!"
You won't hear that from a RAF Harrier pilot.
Regarding the different/'gun' cultures: I don't know. My experience with the UK's social thinking is limited to one visit, some COPE THUNDERS/RED FLAGS, and pprune.
Is it a matter of size? With the RAF being, unfortunately, so small, have you gotten rid of all the British-equivalent of cowboys either through the application/training phase or through professional culling? I don't know.
From the USAF perspective; I have worked with some real idiots. I have also worked with folks who just amaze me with their brains, ability and getting a difficult mission done. Does size or lack therof carry a quality of its own?
I think the latter is accurate. During WWII when the RAF was a tremendous force (and an unbelievable effort on the part of the British people!), I would say you probably had your share of buffoons in cockpits and on the ground. Now the the RAF is a glimmer of that force, does the pressure force out the average?
Before my current occupation, I spent some years deployed in a few tin-pot countries around the world ("Upper Volta with Rockets" being one) working extensively with the US Military and State Department, often 24/7 in some sh*th*le with nobody but Middle ranking field guys to keep me company.
Whilst I met many good decent people, I often found that the inbred american conviction "we are always right" damned irritating. It was almost an evangelical philosophy. We are superior, just trust us and we will make it all right.
That, and a complete lack of regard to cultural sensitivity, verging on some occasions on the catastrophic made me glad I got out of that scene.
Soon as I heard about this incident I just knew you boys had to be involved. Nothing personal here.
Whilst I met many good decent people, I often found that the inbred american conviction "we are always right" damned irritating. It was almost an evangelical philosophy. We are superior, just trust us and we will make it all right.
That, and a complete lack of regard to cultural sensitivity, verging on some occasions on the catastrophic made me glad I got out of that scene.
Soon as I heard about this incident I just knew you boys had to be involved. Nothing personal here.
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Not so. The Fortress 1 bombers were a bit of a disaster and were out of service in Europe by the time the US decided to join WW2. 4 later went to the Middle East, the rest to Benbecula.
The RAF also used the Fortress II with Coastal Command - and a couple of squadrons of Fortress IIIs on ECM duties.
The RAF also used the Fortress II with Coastal Command - and a couple of squadrons of Fortress IIIs on ECM duties.