So how bad is the charter bridge to the sandpit
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Thanks for the useful constructive criticism there.
Perhaps you'd care to point me in the direction of the actual inaccuracies in any of my posts so that I can research them and apologise to the Pprune masses if I'm wrong.
I'm a big enough man to do that - are you a big enough man to help out on this? After all, your comment above is pretty redundant without fact to back up your venom.
Anything I have offered to this thread is personal opinion backed up by years of experience in dealing with whingers.
Regards
CC
Perhaps you'd care to point me in the direction of the actual inaccuracies in any of my posts so that I can research them and apologise to the Pprune masses if I'm wrong.
I'm a big enough man to do that - are you a big enough man to help out on this? After all, your comment above is pretty redundant without fact to back up your venom.
Anything I have offered to this thread is personal opinion backed up by years of experience in dealing with whingers.
Regards
CC
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Six of 1 and Half a Hundredweight
[QUOTE=hell.kelpie;2802932]Trap, I see your point (and can't help but agree), but don't forget our own forces recently took two tremendous blows over dealing with "our own people" (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Kovco )- it's six of one, half a dozen of the other.
Hell.Kelpie
Whilst the incident you quote above is never good news and I left the forces after 27 years post Op Iraq Freedom. I have worked with not only RAAF/RAN exchange but also Aussies/New Zealanders in the RAF. I have had nothing but admiration for the way the Aussies, supported their troops when deployed. I'll give you a for instance, when in Als Garage on a 707 with a mushroom on top. We, including the Aussie exchanges (at least 4) had temporate ie green flying suits. The head Aussie in theatre came to see his people and found out they were not equiped correctly. Within a week, they all had 2 dessert light weight flying suits. The Brits on the other hand had to wait another 6 weeks for the first lot of Brit dessert flying suits to pitch up and even then there weren't to give all 2 suits. In fact there were at least 25% of us still in green flying suits, when the initial Op finished and we rotated out the first crews.
By the way I'd have gone south if the RAAF had SNCO Weapons Controllers
Regards
Trap One
Hell.Kelpie
Whilst the incident you quote above is never good news and I left the forces after 27 years post Op Iraq Freedom. I have worked with not only RAAF/RAN exchange but also Aussies/New Zealanders in the RAF. I have had nothing but admiration for the way the Aussies, supported their troops when deployed. I'll give you a for instance, when in Als Garage on a 707 with a mushroom on top. We, including the Aussie exchanges (at least 4) had temporate ie green flying suits. The head Aussie in theatre came to see his people and found out they were not equiped correctly. Within a week, they all had 2 dessert light weight flying suits. The Brits on the other hand had to wait another 6 weeks for the first lot of Brit dessert flying suits to pitch up and even then there weren't to give all 2 suits. In fact there were at least 25% of us still in green flying suits, when the initial Op finished and we rotated out the first crews.
By the way I'd have gone south if the RAAF had SNCO Weapons Controllers
Regards
Trap One
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Nat,
Under performance aside, weve been there, you seem to be unable to appreciate one point. XL are a civilian private company, MOD are a client. If the client is happy the contracts continue if not they are changed.Decisions are made on a commercial basis not based on any sort of empathy toward the troops or the conditions to which your bosses subject you to. I know from a squaddie pov this is hard to grasp because the military and its task are your life. In order to raise awareness do as saddam suggests and says he is doing.
As for FTL, you may not have an extensive knowledge as you think. Cap 371 is a complicated document with many caveats for which the commander is responsible and personnally liable for compliance.It has to be referred to on a daily basis to try and figure out what can or cant be done when an operation goes awry. Decisions are made in conjunction with info regarding the big picture, which may include but not limited to such things as clearances, a/c handling, crew duty/rest, available acomm, and interlinking programmes etc etc. Xl employees are not military and have contractual rights and legal obligations in equal measures.Even if they had empathy their hands are tied after a certain point. Unfortunately, like a large part of the population, they dont care about your predicament becuase they cant relate to it. As an ex squaddie I do but am not on that contract, or you could set your watch by the fact i would be squeezing every last drop of the regs to make it happen, and motivating my crew to the same. (that is sop for me on any day) That is no easy task as a civvy when crm is interpreted by the twittering masses as a requirement to discuss everything to death outside of a basic day.And they dont have to comply. As a military man you should appreciate the juggling act an aircraft or any commander has to manage whilst considering the big picture and managing HQ's/ companies demands, whislt operating with **** kit due for retirement. Same admin **** ,different uniform
cheers
Its not personnal, its business.
Comp , how is the clinic.
Under performance aside, weve been there, you seem to be unable to appreciate one point. XL are a civilian private company, MOD are a client. If the client is happy the contracts continue if not they are changed.Decisions are made on a commercial basis not based on any sort of empathy toward the troops or the conditions to which your bosses subject you to. I know from a squaddie pov this is hard to grasp because the military and its task are your life. In order to raise awareness do as saddam suggests and says he is doing.
As for FTL, you may not have an extensive knowledge as you think. Cap 371 is a complicated document with many caveats for which the commander is responsible and personnally liable for compliance.It has to be referred to on a daily basis to try and figure out what can or cant be done when an operation goes awry. Decisions are made in conjunction with info regarding the big picture, which may include but not limited to such things as clearances, a/c handling, crew duty/rest, available acomm, and interlinking programmes etc etc. Xl employees are not military and have contractual rights and legal obligations in equal measures.Even if they had empathy their hands are tied after a certain point. Unfortunately, like a large part of the population, they dont care about your predicament becuase they cant relate to it. As an ex squaddie I do but am not on that contract, or you could set your watch by the fact i would be squeezing every last drop of the regs to make it happen, and motivating my crew to the same. (that is sop for me on any day) That is no easy task as a civvy when crm is interpreted by the twittering masses as a requirement to discuss everything to death outside of a basic day.And they dont have to comply. As a military man you should appreciate the juggling act an aircraft or any commander has to manage whilst considering the big picture and managing HQ's/ companies demands, whislt operating with **** kit due for retirement. Same admin **** ,different uniform
cheers
Its not personnal, its business.
Comp , how is the clinic.
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Comp Charlie,
Have a re-read of Eckster's post re the BZ static display, its pretty accurate!
When you're finished, do a little digging and compare the total time taken for Bloggs to reach his final destination by civ contract vs Timmy.
And then...
Look at where Timmy is going now and the amount of work going into keeping that schedule running.
Should keep a big fella like you occupied.
CG
Have a re-read of Eckster's post re the BZ static display, its pretty accurate!
When you're finished, do a little digging and compare the total time taken for Bloggs to reach his final destination by civ contract vs Timmy.
And then...
Look at where Timmy is going now and the amount of work going into keeping that schedule running.
Should keep a big fella like you occupied.
CG
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Comp Charlie,
Have a re-read of Eckster's post re the BZ static display, its pretty accurate!
When you're finished, do a little digging and compare the total time taken for Bloggs to reach his final destination by civ contract vs Timmy.
And then...
Look at where Timmy is going now and the amount of work going into keeping that schedule running.
Should keep a big fella like you occupied.
CG
Have a re-read of Eckster's post re the BZ static display, its pretty accurate!
When you're finished, do a little digging and compare the total time taken for Bloggs to reach his final destination by civ contract vs Timmy.
And then...
Look at where Timmy is going now and the amount of work going into keeping that schedule running.
Should keep a big fella like you occupied.
CG
No, to be fair, I know that the RAF AT fleet is at its best, not adequate for todays Expeditionary tasks and those that work on it (Techies/ Crew/ Movers etc) do an admirable job keeping it running.
I don't respect the Mover Bashing threads as anything more than whinging, therefore I shouldn't expect to discredit others efforts.
Just think its a crying shame we've run our fleet into the ground (bad turn of phrase) with no viable replacements about to roll out onto the pan.
Pity.
CC
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Thrust u can trust
Thanks for the more constructive points, congratulations on coming on a step from your previous relpy to my post.
You can bet your bottom dollar that I am very aware of the client/supplier interface, having left the regular service over 10 years ago, and now in the fortunate position of being able to support the front line on an as required basis.
The real world has shown me that although you may have won a contract, keeping it is something you should keep on top of, this is something that sadly I dont see XL doing.
I guess yes the problem of under performance is being / has been highlighted by this thread, which can only be a good thing.
I am also sure that when I next get a quote for charter across my desk there is one airline that will not be getting a look in.
Sadly the staff need to realise that the "bloke is desert combats" sat in front of them may be more than just another RAF bloke. Firstly everybody that walks up those steps is a person and need treating fairly as such, and secondly they may have influence over the future P&L of the company they work for.
I stand by the fact that XL are not performing to a satisfactory standard, granted this made more obvious to the toms by the crap conditions our lords and masters make us suffer in EID, but they are not earning the money, and I hope there is a suitable performance clause built in by DTMA.
Thanks for the more constructive points, congratulations on coming on a step from your previous relpy to my post.
You can bet your bottom dollar that I am very aware of the client/supplier interface, having left the regular service over 10 years ago, and now in the fortunate position of being able to support the front line on an as required basis.
The real world has shown me that although you may have won a contract, keeping it is something you should keep on top of, this is something that sadly I dont see XL doing.
I guess yes the problem of under performance is being / has been highlighted by this thread, which can only be a good thing.
I am also sure that when I next get a quote for charter across my desk there is one airline that will not be getting a look in.
Sadly the staff need to realise that the "bloke is desert combats" sat in front of them may be more than just another RAF bloke. Firstly everybody that walks up those steps is a person and need treating fairly as such, and secondly they may have influence over the future P&L of the company they work for.
I stand by the fact that XL are not performing to a satisfactory standard, granted this made more obvious to the toms by the crap conditions our lords and masters make us suffer in EID, but they are not earning the money, and I hope there is a suitable performance clause built in by DTMA.
Fly-Friendly
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Chaps
just to get my 50 pence worth it has just taken me 21 hours to get from KBL to BZN from check in to touch down at Brize!!
I know Timmy is stretched but really something needs to change. You would think it was the first time they had flown the route.
just to get my 50 pence worth it has just taken me 21 hours to get from KBL to BZN from check in to touch down at Brize!!
I know Timmy is stretched but really something needs to change. You would think it was the first time they had flown the route.
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Surely we can do crew changes and a refuel quicker than that? We've got customers waiting to see loved ones after six months.
Do you really think that the taskers would schedule 4-5 hour ground time for crew change if there was another way within the given resources? Airlines (proper ones) would have more crews going round a slip pattern so that a fresh one would pick the aircraft as it went each way. I'll bet that what is happening is that the passengers have to wait in the terminal whilst the crew that brought the aircraft from the UK have their minimum rest period before picking up the inbound sector. If there were more crews then an extra couple could be chucked into the slip. To the poor passenger it always seems appalling but (nearly) everyone does their best to make it happen with limited resources. The taskers have worked very hard to try to make the KBL run work.
One could then go on to criticise the minimum rest requirements, but don't forget that these crews are sharing the same airspace as public transport operators. When you buy a ticket for your wife and kids to fly you expect that operators using the same airports and airspace will have roughly similar regulations and observe a duty-of-care towards other carriers and their customers.
One could then go on to criticise the minimum rest requirements, but don't forget that these crews are sharing the same airspace as public transport operators. When you buy a ticket for your wife and kids to fly you expect that operators using the same airports and airspace will have roughly similar regulations and observe a duty-of-care towards other carriers and their customers.
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Do you really think that the taskers would schedule 4-5 hour ground time for crew change if there was another way within the given resources? Airlines (proper ones) would have more crews going round a slip pattern so that a fresh one would pick the aircraft as it went each way. I'll bet that what is happening is that the passengers have to wait in the terminal whilst the crew that brought the aircraft from the UK have their minimum rest period before picking up the inbound sector. If there were more crews then an extra couple could be chucked into the slip. To the poor passenger it always seems appalling but (nearly) everyone does their best to make it happen with limited resources. The taskers have worked very hard to try to make the KBL run work.
One could then go on to criticise the minimum rest requirements, but don't forget that these crews are sharing the same airspace as public transport operators. When you buy a ticket for your wife and kids to fly you expect that operators using the same airports and airspace will have roughly similar regulations and observe a duty-of-care towards other carriers and their customers.
One could then go on to criticise the minimum rest requirements, but don't forget that these crews are sharing the same airspace as public transport operators. When you buy a ticket for your wife and kids to fly you expect that operators using the same airports and airspace will have roughly similar regulations and observe a duty-of-care towards other carriers and their customers.
The Timmy crews are short of rest?? Ask the crews in Bahrain. Lovely time ta. Strippers everywhere for god's sake! They get on quite well with the Bae146 crews off the Royal Squadron! Cushty time while telling all and sundry "We were in the Gulf!"
You surely must be having a fecking laugh?
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Oh come on!!
The Timmy crews are short of rest?? Ask the crews in Bahrain. Lovely time ta. Strippers everywhere for god's sake! They get on quite well with the Bae146 crews off the Royal Squadron! Cushty time while telling all and sundry "We were in the Gulf!"
You surely must be having a fecking laugh?
The Timmy crews are short of rest?? Ask the crews in Bahrain. Lovely time ta. Strippers everywhere for god's sake! They get on quite well with the Bae146 crews off the Royal Squadron! Cushty time while telling all and sundry "We were in the Gulf!"
You surely must be having a fecking laugh?
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I believe (and feel free to correct me) that the Timmy can't make the run from KBL to BZN in one hop because the runway at KBL isn't long enough? It can go direct outbound, but not on the return trip.
What would the cost be to extend the runway v the cost of flying the extra hours it takes to fly to Dubai, change crews and then fly onto BZN?
Is there a practical reason that the runway can't be extended at KBL?
How long would it take to make up the investment of building it?
Just food for thought...
PP
What would the cost be to extend the runway v the cost of flying the extra hours it takes to fly to Dubai, change crews and then fly onto BZN?
Is there a practical reason that the runway can't be extended at KBL?
How long would it take to make up the investment of building it?
Just food for thought...
PP
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believe (and feel free to correct me) that the Timmy can't make the run from KBL to BZN in one hop because the runway at KBL isn't long enough? It can go direct outbound, but not on the return trip.
Some of the comments posted on here beggar belief. QFI ****eman, I can't even be ar$ed to address some of the bolleaux you're spouting. Another tough LL jolly around Wales today was it? Mova - I think you may have hit the nail on the head, judging by the lack of response...
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QFI-man,
To re-iterate, in the case you were describing the crew that flew the ac from the UK to the first stop would have had a minimum crew rest period whilst the deployed crew took the jet to/from a place further east. The second crew's task takes less than the min 13.5 hour ground time of the first crew. The 13.5 hours is made up of 0.5 hours post-flight duties, 11.5 hours rest (including any travelling) and 1.5 hours pre-flight duties. The pax inbound to the UK unfortunatley have to wait whilst the first crew finish their mandatory min rest before the ac can depart. These are the legalities and the fact is that if you cut the 5 hour ground time down to the standard 1.5 hour stop then the crew would only have an 8-hour rest period . This equates to about 6 hours sleep after an out-of-hours report, a 10 hour working day and a 3 hour time zone change before another 10 hour day.
Whilst I agree that this does not sound too onerous for deployed ops in support of war, would it be an acceptable way to run a continous airbridge through busy European airspace? I again make the point that whoever contemplates authorising a reduced rest period needs to think about a tired crew descending through the London FIR and the duty-of-care owed to the other users of that airspace. Would you authorise this schedule and potentially have to stand in a court and explain why the published limits (based on medical advice and industry practice) were disregarded - contributing to a civil aircraft accident? Think about the Railtrack directors. The pain that that this type of scheduling causes to passengers can only be reduced by using more crews - which costs money.
You really are believing in jaundiced sterotypes if you think that Crew Duty/Rest limits are only written and implemented on the basis of the crews having a good time downroute. Yes there are occasions when one elemnet of a slip pattern have a good deal relative to other tasks, or even other crews within the same slip - but that is simply the luck of the draw. It seems that it is only those have no expereince of working any type of long-haul schedule that view such regulations with suspicion. Incidentally, I think this route is done a different way now anyway - going direct to KBL and then crew changing on the way home.
I don't know what you mean about TriStar crews in Bahrain but I'm guessing that because Bahrain is more comfortable than Ali-Al S/PSAB etc then you believe that the missions they flew over Irag during GW2 were somehow less worthy than those flown by folks from crappier places.
PP - As for extending the runway at KBL - terrain aside, the cost would be enormous compared to tech-stopping ac on the way home. Resurfacing Brize cost circa £20m! The last new runway in the UK (Manchester) cost £250m.
To re-iterate, in the case you were describing the crew that flew the ac from the UK to the first stop would have had a minimum crew rest period whilst the deployed crew took the jet to/from a place further east. The second crew's task takes less than the min 13.5 hour ground time of the first crew. The 13.5 hours is made up of 0.5 hours post-flight duties, 11.5 hours rest (including any travelling) and 1.5 hours pre-flight duties. The pax inbound to the UK unfortunatley have to wait whilst the first crew finish their mandatory min rest before the ac can depart. These are the legalities and the fact is that if you cut the 5 hour ground time down to the standard 1.5 hour stop then the crew would only have an 8-hour rest period . This equates to about 6 hours sleep after an out-of-hours report, a 10 hour working day and a 3 hour time zone change before another 10 hour day.
Whilst I agree that this does not sound too onerous for deployed ops in support of war, would it be an acceptable way to run a continous airbridge through busy European airspace? I again make the point that whoever contemplates authorising a reduced rest period needs to think about a tired crew descending through the London FIR and the duty-of-care owed to the other users of that airspace. Would you authorise this schedule and potentially have to stand in a court and explain why the published limits (based on medical advice and industry practice) were disregarded - contributing to a civil aircraft accident? Think about the Railtrack directors. The pain that that this type of scheduling causes to passengers can only be reduced by using more crews - which costs money.
You really are believing in jaundiced sterotypes if you think that Crew Duty/Rest limits are only written and implemented on the basis of the crews having a good time downroute. Yes there are occasions when one elemnet of a slip pattern have a good deal relative to other tasks, or even other crews within the same slip - but that is simply the luck of the draw. It seems that it is only those have no expereince of working any type of long-haul schedule that view such regulations with suspicion. Incidentally, I think this route is done a different way now anyway - going direct to KBL and then crew changing on the way home.
I don't know what you mean about TriStar crews in Bahrain but I'm guessing that because Bahrain is more comfortable than Ali-Al S/PSAB etc then you believe that the missions they flew over Irag during GW2 were somehow less worthy than those flown by folks from crappier places.
PP - As for extending the runway at KBL - terrain aside, the cost would be enormous compared to tech-stopping ac on the way home. Resurfacing Brize cost circa £20m! The last new runway in the UK (Manchester) cost £250m.
R 21
It has taken me 5 days to get back from Basrah to Brize in the past, so I am afraid that, like many, I have little sympathy for your 21 hour epic!! I have met people who have spent their entire R&R period simply in transit!
The entire system seems to be coming apart at the seams, despite the best efforts of most people within it, be they aircrew, movers, etc. This is simply because they are all being asked to achieve too much with too few resources, and have been for several years now!!
It is not rocket science. Spend more, do less, or carry on with the same shoddy system, those are the only options available.
It has taken me 5 days to get back from Basrah to Brize in the past, so I am afraid that, like many, I have little sympathy for your 21 hour epic!! I have met people who have spent their entire R&R period simply in transit!
The entire system seems to be coming apart at the seams, despite the best efforts of most people within it, be they aircrew, movers, etc. This is simply because they are all being asked to achieve too much with too few resources, and have been for several years now!!
It is not rocket science. Spend more, do less, or carry on with the same shoddy system, those are the only options available.
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I was out in Basrah when the rubb hangers were being constructed for passengers, movers and R&D to move to after vacating the Basrah International buildings. Quite who it was that believed the smaller rubb was large enough for both the movers to build out-going cargo pallets and for the suppliers to strip down and receipt equipment off the inbound ones was never fully revealed.
As for the passenger rubb, well I was glad I got out of there before it came into use.